Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[ianathompson]

Martin

 

It is probably a bit late to say it, and it might have been said before, but I would be worried about getting between the two operating wells.

 

When I designed my own layout in a similar sized room (the AFK) i deliberately avoided the need to duck under anything, except the entry point.

 

There are also two places where trains "disappear" before entering the other operating space. This is one Achilles heel of my own design, forced upon me by a half built terminus in the wrong orientation to the rest of the line.

Guess where many problems occur!

 

 Wishing you well with this project.

 

Ian T

[Martin S-C]

Hi Ian

 

Yep, you're quite right, the duckunder between the two operating wells might become an issue as I get older. I am sitting and wondering about it. Apart from completely re-doing the plan I haven't come up with a good answer yet. There were some excellent ideas suggested by other people on here that I could raise the entire floor of the operating wells and make the duck-under more of a "step-downer" arrangement but limited ceiling height has made that a no-no unfortunately. I am building the baseboards at a height of 40" from the floor and in the duck-under area the two stations are at +7.5" and +3.5" above this datum so with appropriately designed boards I could get 3 more inches of clearance except for the cassette which is at datum. The ducking-under part could therefore be eased a little. The room entry is along the Borrocks station platforms and I intend to have that section on a separate trolley framework that can be wheeled out (the door opens outwards).

 

With only 7.5 feet width within the garage after the wall insulation, studding and plasterboard went in, arranging an operating space where no internal duckunder was required proved a bit of a pain, with any sort of central island or peninsular baseboard design, which is what I wanted. Its why I went for two termini across the room to begin with. I couldn't fathom out how to fit a central peninsular style board without reducing the two baseboards on the outside of the walls to mere planks at that point. I freely admit the room needs to be at least 2 feet wider to be a truly useful space for this size of project but I had to live with what I had. It has caused me plenty of fingernail nibbling over the months. I can only hope I've made a decision I won't regret too quickly and that I get many ears of fun from it before my body complains too much.

The cassette was the most recent operational addition and I'm not certain I need it. It is also handled by the person operating the exchange sidings (the set of sidings that are really a scenic fiddle yard below left of the quarry) so for that "fiddling" operator to keep asking the Great Shafting station operator to move aside so he can load or remove a train will be just... messy. The cassette may get scrapped.

If my legs and/or back and/or any other vital parts give way in the years to come there is another option of cutting a separate access door into the right hand operating well on the top edge of the plan just to the left of Snarling Junction. This would be a messy and expensive option but is do-able if it proves necessary though I hope major surgery of this nature will be a couple of decades in the future.

 

The two long tunnels under the pair of main termini will have open frames around them, and nets underneath to catch anything that falls off so when (not if!) something goes wrong under here I will have access to these tracks via the open framework.

 

Also, finished this today. It now has to go for a trip to the weathering works. I'm feeling quite pleased with how this one turned out. It has a Britishness about it but is also reminiscent of bogie wagons that ran on the C&M and MVR and that's something I've been aiming to replicate as long as I didn't need to start using American box cars or anything like that.

 

[Martin S-C]

If it wasn't for the nearly three hour drive I'd happily come and give you a hand

There's a spare bed if you need it and my lady friend does a cracking scrambled eggs on toast!

[Nearholmer]

Hopefully not too morbid-minded, but can someone get in to aid you, if the ‘trolley’ is across the door? I’ve probably see too many episodes of Casualty - used to watch it without looking when SWMBO was a fan and I had a small modelling bench in the corner of the sitting room.

[ianathompson]

After posting yesterday i went into the railway room and ran a train into one of the hidden areas.Guess what?

Bang! Six wheel coach onto the sleepers. Alright easily fixed after fishing the stock out and the fault attributed to one item of (scratch built) stock in five vehicle train.

What gets me is that these things always happen on the hidden corner, right after the same train has traversed a similar curve in the open!

 

Anyway, at the risk of hijacking your thread, the (7mm scale) layout runs on 'planks', although the 9 foot 3 inch room width allowed slightly more latitude in setting it out.

They can be made presentable and don't require too much effort either as there isn't much there!

 

Photo enclosed from current operating session.

 

4-11 by Ian Thompson, on Flickr

 

Ian T

[Martin S-C]

Thread hijacking is welcome as long as things stay tenuously pre-grouping railway related. Brexit discussions, pro/anti Trump and one's religious convictions should be discussed in other places!

Good point Kevin, I need to make the framework of that moveable trolley open so someone can crawl through it in extremis. The door opens outwards and I suppose if it were a medical emergency I'd care more about my welfare than a paramedic or neighbour shoving the trolley inwards and breaking some track and wires. Perspective is essential in these things. I had already intended to always have my mobile phone on me while I'm in there.

If only I'd had a spare room and could have built the layout in the house. Would have saved much money and brain cells.

 

The wheeled trolley section is only a plan at the moment. A lifting flap might be both easier and simpler, its just that a hinge above baseboard is needed for that and such and such scenic eyesore and so on, blah blah.

Ian, yes, I agree, having very narrow sections to allow a peninsular and avoid duck-unders is always better but I think I've invested so much effort into planning now, as well as building stock and collecting other scenic items to work with the current plan that I think I must lie in the bed I've made. Not ideal but hey-ho, we'll see. I am sure you'll be proven right in the long term but hopefully that long term will allow me a couple of decades of happy use before joints begin to stiffen up.

[lezz01]

There is a way to avoid hinges above the baseboard Martin. Although if the lifting section is hard up against a wall this won't work. It also necessitates the use of 4 hinges and not two. I'll post you a drawing later today to show you how it's done. I haven't seen it done for years but the Milton Keynes guys had it on their old 7 mm layout back in the 70's.

Regards Lez.  

[Stubby47]

See how St Enodoc has done it here : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94350-mid-cornwall-lines-1950s-western-region-in-00/?p=2729276

[Nearholmer]

Lezz

 

if you like hinges, theres a way of doing it with six!

 

On a fold-up layout that I built in the early 1990s, I used two "towers" on each side of the board, one either side of the join, each fixed to the front face of the board with a backflap hinge, and the two joined together at their tops by another hinge.

 

It was tricky to get everything precise enough to work smoothly, but it did.

 

Overall, though, the project was a failure, because all the ingenious folding tempted me to make a layout that was terribly unwieldy once folded-up. I laid and wired the track, but it never got beyond that before being sent for recycling!

Edited November 1, 2018 by Nearholmer

[tebee]

Yes, I'd avoid duckunders if possible, My layout is 10ft 6 x 18ft 6 but I use multiple decks  to get a similar sort of of system layout to your's in that space. The greater width  lets me get a central peninsular in too. Operating well is U shape down both sides of the peninsular. Access to it is by a removable section on the lower deck and a nod under - the track is about  5ft 6 off the floor - on the higher level.

 

My boards are a bit narrower that I would prefer in places, as usual I tried to squeeze a bit to much in, but I have about a 250 ft run terminus to terminus with five intermediate passing loops and two branchlines. it's scenicly pure   - only  one line passes through every  visible scene  and, except for the line to the fiddle yard, it's possible to walk alongside and follow your train as it progresses around the layout.  

 

However old age/ill health still managed to catch me out. I got a frozen shoulder(diabetes complication)   which meant I could not reach in the limited space between decks for almost two years. Layout progress stalled  and has never really recovered, though I am still working on the line. 

[lezz01]

Lezz

 

if you like hinges, theres a way of doing it with six!

 

On a fold-up layout that I built in the early 1990s, I used two "towers" on each side of the board, one either side of the join, each fixed to the front face of the board with a backflap hinge, and the two joined together at their tops by another hinge.

 

It was tricky to get everything precise enough to work smoothly, but it did.

 

Overall, though, the project was a failure, because all the ingenious folding tempted me to make a layout that was terribly unwieldy once folded-up. I laid and wired the track, but it never got beyond that before being sent for recycling!

Yup that's exactly what I was talking about. The deference is that instead of blocks of wood you use steel plate and have a nut and bolt as the pivot point instead of another hinge. Has the added advantage that it doesn't intrude on the baseboard top and is only as thick as the steel plate 1/4" is good you just need to be able to weld and have access to a welder of course. You get the idea. Saves me from having to scan a drawing. 

Regards Lez. 

[DonB]

A duck-under tends to become a "Crawl-under" as years progress (Ask me how I know!) A crouching shuffle or a crawl are both hard on the knees! 

An idea I have seen suggested, can't remember where, Is to have a little, low, sit-on trolley  permanently sited under the gap. with handrails each side of the opening. The handrails provide the means of propulsion and one arrives at 'tother side facing the right way to get upright easily. I think that a narrow bench-type seat would work best, bearing in mind that has to be equally usable in both directions.

[Stubby47]

A duck-under tends to become a "Crawl-under" as years progress (Ask me how I know!) A crouching shuffle or a crawl are both hard on the knees! 

An idea I have seen suggested, can't remember where, Is to have a little, low, sit-on trolley  permanently sited under the gap. with handrails each side of the opening. The handrails provide the means of propulsion and one arrives at 'tother side facing the right way to get upright easily. I think that a narrow bench-type seat would work best, bearing in mind that has to be equally usable in both directions.

 

Or this....

 

https://trunkitravels.com/blog/adult_trunki/

[DonB]

Would be the very thing if shaped like a loco!

 

I was thinking more of this sort of thing :- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolling-Gardening-Helper-Workshop-Trolley/dp/B00XGWWSD6/ref=pd_sbs_86_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00XGWWSD6&pd_rd_r=3f2a449b-ddf9-11e8-a4bd-ef9e25c8193f&pd_rd_w=S6XMw&pd_rd_wg=Ae9Th&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=18edf98b-139a-41ee-bb40-d725dd59d1d3&pf_rd_r=P3K9P82CQJGYGM2Q06QE&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=P3K9P82CQJGYGM2Q06QE 

[runs as required]

There's a spare bed if you need it ...

I've been away for a bit and am therefore 'way out of the loop'.

I see you have got back to the issue of 'duck unders' and potentially aged operators. I confess as an octogen... (and former potholer) I could not contemplate a couple of those sorts of access crawl-unders with a pair of knees thoughtlessly damaged in teenage plus years.

 

But with the mention of spare beds - could you not devise a low divan (IKEA on ball castors) that you lie down on and pull/roll yourself under the layout on - canal boatman style ? It would depend of course on the height at which you decide to pitch the layout.

(I've always had a sneaky liking also for out-of -the-way corners to snatch a bit of shut-eye in.  Do you fancy adapting your plan to facilitate a happy hour or so's kip with a slow goods train slugging away round and round in the backdown? A nostalgic re-visiting of the nightime sounds of the 1950s).

dh

[lezz01]

Of course with all these rolling, sliding, sit on/lay on things you still have the problem of getting on and off the damn things without falling off and breaking your neck or something less permanent.Just a thought you understand. 

Regards Lez.  

[Martin S-C]

I can see myself doing what you plan... getting down on the "boatman's plank" and then just laying there and shutting my eyes... I guess you're talking about a wheeled car inspection trolley type thingywhatsit, but there's still the getting down and getting up again.

 

The little wheeled gizmo is cute, and it saves half the downwards and upwards vertical journeys I am just wondering about clearance now... or should I say loading gauge "do not lean out of the train while passing into tunnels".

As to the entrance door I shall most definitely shamelessly copy St Enodoc's "lifting canal bridge" engineering solution as Stubby47 linked to in post #333. Its so gorgeously cool I loathe my very existence for not thinking of it first.

[Stubby47]

The Trunki was an April 1st joke... but the response was so good it might just become a reality.

[Martin S-C]

I've been away for a bit and am therefore 'way out of the loop'.

dh

My layout has no continuous run so there is no loop to be out of. We are all sans-loops here.

[lezz01]

I have a loop it's also part of my duck under. I can't even begin to tell you how much skin I've left on the damn thing even though it's 4'6" off the floor.

Regards Lez.

[Martin S-C]

And finished... (I redid the running number as I didn't like the smaller italic font).

 

[tebee]

This the track plan for my line. US prototype. HO

 

 

Bottom level

 

 

 

Middle level

 

 

Top level

 

 

 

Operating isles not shown, but basically where the track isn't  !

 

Entry is on  bottom edge  near right end.

 

red H's are vertical supports for center peninsula.

 

Black track is fiddle yard not sceneniced    

 

Spot heights are in inches 

 

Is what is technically called a "nolicix"  - gradually gains height as it weaves round the room.

 

Steepest gradient  is 1 in 40- I designed it to have 1 in 50 but it ended up a little steeper in real life

 

 

Now I'm not suggesting you copy this, but although it makes the baseboard construction much more complicated, having multiple decks is a great way of fitting more into your existing space.

 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

This the track plan for my line. US prototype. HO

 

 

Bottom level

 

Fullscreen capture 1122018 100920 AM.bmp.jpg

 

 

Middle level

 

Fullscreen capture 1122018 100846 AM.bmp.jpg

 

Top level

 

Fullscreen capture 1122018 100228 AM.bmp.jpg

 

 

Operating isles not shown, but basically where the track isn't  !

 

Entry is on  bottom edge  near right end.

 

red H's are vertical supports for center peninsula.

 

Black track is fiddle yard not sceneniced    

 

Spot heights are in inches 

 

Is what is technically called a "nolicix"  - gradually gains height as it weaves round the room.

 

Steepest gradient  is 1 in 40- I designed it to have 1 in 50 but it ended up a little steeper in real life

 

 

Now I'm not suggesting you copy this, but although it makes the baseboard construction much more complicated, having multiple decks is a great way of fitting more into your existing space.

 

I love those multi-deck layouts. Definitely too few layouts in Britain have exploited the possibilities.

 

But it does ideally need a wide enough room to be able to have a peninsula down the middle. Martin only has 7'6" width to play with so the peninsular is not possible.

 

But I do think it worth avoiding duckunders wherever possible. Given that Martin is only looking to run short trains, it should  be possible to have very tight radius (R2) curves in hidden parts. So it becomes possible (just) to have return loops either side of a 2' passageway with termini etc above them. So perhaps worth a complete redesign  although I do like the original plan with its CJF origins.

 

Going OT, wouldn't that CJF original make a cracking layout in O (28' x 14') given the small locos and stock available in that scale?

[DonB]

I have a loop it's also part of my duck under. I can't even begin to tell you how much skin I've left on the damn thing even though it's 4'6" off the floor.

Regards Lez.

 

A little bit of ######-pile on the underside of the board and it's edges might help! (Just testing the limits of the censor) 

 

Edit.... it's an anagram of "gash"  !   Yep.. a gash bit of carpet fills the bill OK too.

Edited November 2, 2018 by DonB

[Denbridge]

I can see myself doing what you plan... getting down on the "boatman's plank" and then just laying there and shutting my eyes... I guess you're talking about a wheeled car inspection trolley type thingywhatsit, but there's still the getting down and getting up again.

 

The little wheeled gizmo is cute, and it saves half the downwards and upwards vertical journeys I am just wondering about clearance now... or should I say loading gauge "do not lean out of the train while passing into tunnels".

As to the entrance door I shall most definitely shamelessly copy St Enodoc's "lifting canal bridge" engineering solution as Stubby47 linked to in post #333. Its so gorgeously cool I loathe my very existence for not thinking of it first.

a dear and sadly departed friend used to have one of those office chairs on casters. I think he lowered it from its as bought condition. By sitting in a hunched posture, he could wheel himself under his layout entrance. Worked a treat.