Can we save people from tops of burning buildings? Ideas please?

[How about a Dictator Loco Class?]

[manna]

G'day Folks

 

Can I add my 2 cents worth, First, I think sprinklers should be mandatory on all multi story buildings.

 

In the case of the Grenfell Tower, the fire started quite low down 3/4/5 floor, if sprinklers had been installed, the outside of the building would not have caught fire.

 

Tower blocks should always be built in pairs, with sky bridges between them, 20 stories, 4 sky bridges, it would be a quick way to evacuate, from one tower to the other, firemen would also have access to the 'burning towerblock' on different levels.

 

manna

[Ozexpatriate]

Tower blocks should always be built in pairs, with sky bridges between them, 20 stories, 4 sky bridges,

Would you also equip the sky bridges with explosive bolts to jettison them to prevent fire jumping from one building to the next via the sky bridges?

 

(Of course I'm being a bit facetious, but it could actually make the problem worse, particularly if a catastrophic collapse is involved.)

[Joseph_Pestell]

G'day Folks

 

Can I add my 2 cents worth, First, I think sprinklers should be mandatory on all multi story buildings.

 

In the case of the Grenfell Tower, the fire started quite low down 3/4/5 floor, if sprinklers had been installed, the outside of the building would not have caught fire.

 

Tower blocks should always be built in pairs, with sky bridges between them, 20 stories, 4 sky bridges, it would be a quick way to evacuate, from one tower to the other, firemen would also have access to the 'burning towerblock' on different levels.

 

manna

 

Sprinklers, yes. But where? And to what extent linked throughout the building?

 

Not difficult to imagine a scenario where quite a small fire incident (or vandalism) leads to the whole building being trashed by water damage.

[DougN]

Sprinklers, yes. But where? And to what extent linked throughout the building?

 

Not difficult to imagine a scenario where quite a small fire incident (or vandalism) leads to the whole building being trashed by water damage.

Joseph your exactly right. See my post earlier about a single head breaking and the volume of water. How ever this is what we all call a wet sprinkler system. What you might not be aware of is the damage from any building fire is mostly water damage!

 

I was working at a company where a halogen light had been left on in a ceiling space. It caused a small fire. Which from what I had heard would have been put out with a dry chemical fire extinguisher. The brigade drenched the entire roof space with a hose causing ceilings to collapse this was after assessing the fire! Ok there is logic in what they do and I understand this. So again it was the water damage that caused 30kaud of damage.

 

Talking of extinguishers how many on here have a small extinguisher in their kitchens? A cooking fire can easily be put out by a small off the shelf unit. It could save the house and thousands of pounds damage! This is also a not mandatory item. But would this reduce the number of building fires? Could a simple small extinguisher possibly have reduced the Grenville issue or even stoped it?

 

Small extinguishers should these be installed in cars also? What about the railway room with mains electricity and modelling chemicals?

Edited August 4, 2018 by DougN

[Pacific231G]

Joseph your exactly right. See my post earlier about a single head breaking and the volume of water. How ever this is what we all call a wet sprinkler system. What you might not be aware of is the damage from any building fire is mostly water damage!

 

I was working at a company where a halogen light had been left on in a ceiling space. It caused a small fire. Which from what I had heard would have been put out with a dry chemical fire extinguisher. The brigade drenched the entire roof space with a hose causing ceilings to collapse this was after assessing the fire! Ok there is logic in what they do and I understand this. So again it was the water damage that caused 30kaud of damage.

 

Talking of extinguishers how many on here have a small extinguisher in their kitchens? A cooking fire can easily be put out by a small off the shelf unit. It could save the house and thousands of pounds damage! This is also a not mandatory item. But would this reduce the number of building fires? Could a simple small extinguisher possibly have reduced the Grenville issue or even stoped it?

 

Small extinguishers should these be installed in cars also? What about the railway room with mains electricity and modelling chemicals?

I thought fire blanket were generally considered more useful for small kitchen fires which, unless they're actually appliances catching fire, almost always happen on top of the hob. However, having the same level of protection at home as in a small commercial kitchen/university residence kitchen, seems a very sensible idea. I have an extinguisher in my car but should look at my kitchen. You do of course also need to know how to use an extinguisher effectively and safely. 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Pacific231G

[The Bigbee Line]

Stupid thought. How about setting a height v width ratio for residential structures over x stories. Then the higher they go the wider they would need to be. Multiple stair / lifts with the opportunity to have horizontal separation.

Just a thought.

[Joseph_Pestell]

David is right that a fire blanket is a better option on a hob (and we do have one).

 

But Grenfell started iirc from a fridge or washing machine. A dry extinguisher would indeed have sorted the problem.

 

So while all these buildings are waiting (a long time) for the necessary remedial work, giving each household an extinguisher and a fire blanket for their kitchen would seem like a very sensible low-cost measure.

 

Which means it probably won't happen!

[The Bigbee Line]

They will do a risk assessment and frig the figures.

 

I have a qualification in Risk Assessment and upset the tutor when I pointed out it was to easy to apply MTF to get the answer you want. He got really upset when I explained that MTF stood for “massage the figures”......

[Pacific231G]

Stupid thought. How about setting a height v width ratio for residential structures over x stories. Then the higher they go the wider they would need to be. Multiple stair / lifts with the opportunity to have horizontal separation.

Just a thought.

There are though huge social problems with developments based on extended horizontal access corridors or galleries. Le Corbusier and his disciples banged on about "streets in the sky"  and "the three dimensional city" but in reality these became anonymous, unowned, non-defensible spaces that bred criminality and anti-social  behavour. They're reckoned to have been a major factor in the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985 and after that the decks connecting buildings there were taken down. There's a lot more about this here 

https://www.architectural-review.com/essays/campaigns/notopia/notopia-the-fall-of-streets-in-the-sky/10006944.article

Even away from social housing the idea simply doesn't seem to work and if you're familiar with the Barbican development in the City of London you'll know how alienating  this approach could be. I had a friend once who lived in the Barbican fairly soon after it was built and going to and from her very high quality (and expensive) flat via the almost invariably empty decks always felt uncomfortable. 

 

There is always a danger of trying to solve one problem and creating others in the process. I absolutely agree though that nobody should be high up in a tall building with only one means of escape.  In a hotel the fire escape is normally via an alarmed door. In a low cost housing development the alarm would probably have been disarmed and even if not would likely be ignored.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Russell_P]

Fireproof lifts.

Most lifts and lift shafts are of fire rated construction. At least here in NZ

 

Russell

 

Fire Inspector

NZ Fire Service

[kevinlms]

G'day Folks

 

Can I add my 2 cents worth, First, I think sprinklers should be mandatory on all multi story buildings.

 

In the case of the Grenfell Tower, the fire started quite low down 3/4/5 floor, if sprinklers had been installed, the outside of the building would not have caught fire.

 

Tower blocks should always be built in pairs, with sky bridges between them, 20 stories, 4 sky bridges, it would be a quick way to evacuate, from one tower to the other, firemen would also have access to the 'burning towerblock' on different levels.

 

manna

How would you label such bridges, so that occupants would know which floor the sky bridges were on? People panic and find it hard to read detailed instructions and its worse than useless, if you miss the correct floor by one.

 

Training residents (residential towers/floors) and office staff (business towers/floors), ought to be possible, but what about visitors?

[kevinlms]

Joseph your exactly right. See my post earlier about a single head breaking and the volume of water. How ever this is what we all call a wet sprinkler system. What you might not be aware of is the damage from any building fire is mostly water damage!

 

I was working at a company where a halogen light had been left on in a ceiling space. It caused a small fire. Which from what I had heard would have been put out with a dry chemical fire extinguisher. The brigade drenched the entire roof space with a hose causing ceilings to collapse this was after assessing the fire! Ok there is logic in what they do and I understand this. So again it was the water damage that caused 30kaud of damage.

 

Talking of extinguishers how many on here have a small extinguisher in their kitchens? A cooking fire can easily be put out by a small off the shelf unit. It could save the house and thousands of pounds damage! This is also a not mandatory item. But would this reduce the number of building fires? Could a simple small extinguisher possibly have reduced the Grenville issue or even stoped it?

 

Small extinguishers should these be installed in cars also? What about the railway room with mains electricity and modelling chemicals?

Remember how close the building housing Metrol in Melbourne came to severe flooding (a burst water pipe). It was only discovered by chance when a technician picked up a floor tile (false floor for computer cabling etc) and found it virtually up to the level of the power points.

At that time and for years afterwards, there was no remote back up signallers position at all.

 

As it was, it was shut down for a few hours, shutting the whole suburban rail system.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/rail-shutdown-strands-30-000-commuters-20050628-ge0f4q.html

[kevinlms]

Most lifts and lift shafts are of fire rated construction. At least here in NZ

 

Russell

 

Fire Inspector

NZ Fire Service

But is it usable? Didn't some Russian fire fighters die in a lift, which they used as no other method to get their equipment to the top. It failed.