Platform already has a loco on the buffers, another arrives...

[rob D2]

Hi,

Just curious. Saw a picture of a 37 ( yes, 37) on the buffers at Paddington. It’s stock was removed but before it could back out another parcels train came in with a 47 and trapped it once more.

 

So the question is - how’s that work ? Surely the 37 backs out to the platform end signal after the stock is gone to wait for a green. What system is there that the incoming doesn’t collide with it half way down the platform ?

 

Especially if the platform curves ?

 

Any ideas

[uax6]

But it could be booked to stay in the platform at the stops if there is no time to get it out of the way before the next one in. The next one in will be signalled into the platform under a sub signal, and therefore is proceeding on sight, and must be able to stop within the distance the driver can see, so at a very slow speed.

 

Nothing out of the ordinary, happens all the time with units....

 

Andy G

[rob D2]

But it could be booked to stay in the platform at the stops if there is no time to get it out of the way before the next one in. The next one in will be signalled into the platform under a sub signal, and therefore is proceeding on sight, and must be able to stop within the distance the driver can see, so at a very slow speed.

 

Nothing out of the ordinary, happens all the time with units....

 

Andy G

How would the driver know he’s supposed to not back out to the signal in that case though ?

[big jim]

quite simply you don't move until you have spoke to the signaller who will give you permission to drop down the platform to the signal

[HillsideDepot]

How would the driver know he’s supposed to not back out to the signal in that case though ?

Why would the driver back out to the signal?

 

He'd only do that if his duty told him to do so, and after gaining the necessary permission. His duty could just as easily tell him to take a meal break, or to wait until the following class 47 has run back light before making his next move, or indeed to couple to the class 47 so they can run together to Old Oak or wherever. Any number of things could happen next, but the driver will only do as instructed.

[LBRJ]

Until about 1998(ish) a realeased loco sat on the blocks could follow its shunted stock back  to the platform end, and then sit there and await the signal to move further.

 

 

If this is a bit wrong Im sorry, its a long time ago

[royaloak]

Until about 1998(ish) a realeased loco sat on the blocks could follow its shunted stock back  to the platform end, and then sit there and await the signal to move further.

 

 

If this is a bit wrong Im sorry, its a long time ago

Sometimes they would 'assist' the train out of the platform.

[TheSignalEngineer]

At most terminal stations there were instructions as to how locos detached from trains were dealt with. I remember at the ols side of Birmingham Moor Street is was that the train or loco stayed at the blocks until the departure signal was cleared.

 

At Paddington, if a loco is stopped in the station after the stock has gone I understand that the instruction is that the person in charge of the platform has to contact the signaller for instructions before any move takes place.

 

 

Until about 1998(ish) a realeased loco sat on the blocks could follow its shunted stock back  to the platform end, and then sit there and await the signal to move further.

 

I remember some stations where this was the case. a least back in the 1980s.

[newbryford]

Until about 1998(ish) a realeased loco sat on the blocks could follow its shunted stock back  to the platform end, and then sit there and await the signal to move further.

 

 

If this is a bit wrong Im sorry, its a long time ago

 

We used to call it "doing a Pic" (referring to similar moves at Manchester Piccadilly) when operating a layout of mine with a dead end platform.

 

Cheers,

Mick

We used to call it "doing a Pic" (referring to operations at Manchester Piccadilly) when operating a layout of mine with a dead end platform.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[LBRJ]

I must have a half decent memory then cos two stations I know of where it may have happened were Manchester Picc and Penzance!

[rob D2]

Alright , I think I’ve got it . There were local instructions for differing locations.

 

So in Paddington, you wouldn’t move and speak to the signaller.

 

Other places you could follow your stock to the signal

 

Thanks for the info all...

[newbryford]

Alright , I think I’ve got it . There were local instructions for differing locations.

 

So in Paddington, you wouldn’t move and speak to the signaller.

 

Other places you could follow your stock to the signal

 

Thanks for the info all...

 

ISTR Euston was another where the loco followed the departing train up to the platform end.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited June 19, 2018 by newbryford

[Andy W]

ISTR Euston was another where the loco followed the departing train up to the platform end.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Yes, that could happen in the period between electrification and the introduction of push-pull working, but at some times of day electric locos were allowed to accumulate in the longer platforms at the buffer stops until 2 or 3 were there, and then they all set off coupled together, presumably for Willesden and district. I suppose it saved on drivers and paths. Not every loco hauled train needed a fresh loco to take it out again either unless forming a down departure as some trains were backed out of the platform by the loco of the arriving train, since unlike most London termini Euston had carriage sheds adjacent as well as using the carriage sidings in the Wembley/Stonebridge Park area. Several roads at the foot of Camden bank were officially known as Backing Out Roads, and were used to hold sets waiting to be placed in Downside Carriage Shed by the shed pilot, or sets coming into service out of Downside waiting to be backed into a platform by the loco that would take the train out.

[beast66606]

ISTR Euston was another where the loco followed the departing train up to the platform end.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

At Lime Street the incoming train engine used to chase the buffers to the platform starting signal, at times they were pretty close behind, in fact so close it was like banking out of the platforms was authorised

[Wickham Green]

At Lime Street the incoming train engine used to chase the buffers to the platform starting signal, at times they were pretty close behind, in fact so close it was like banking out of the platforms was authorised

At Victoria it was standard practise for the loco that brought in a train to give it a shove and then drop off at the platform end - the Night Ferry, in particular, needed that extra oomph to get it up Grosvenor Bank. 

[Guest teacupteacup]

The loco following the train to the signal also happened at Glasgow Central and Queen Street stations iirc

[Guy Rixon]

I've always understood that a released engine had to follow the departing train out to the platform starting-signal unless the platform line had a track circuit. This was to reduce the chance of the signalman forgetting that the platform was occupied. 

 

Since just about all urban layouts have track circuits now, things must be more flexible.

 

Also, it may be that the platform track-circuit affects the interlocking and the signals seen by incoming trains. In earlier times the main signal for entry to the platform might be locked at danger by the track circuit and a calling-on arm provided to allow access when the platform was partly occupied. I don't know how that is done in modern systems.

[Wickham Green]

I've always understood that a released engine had to follow the departing train out to the platform starting-signal unless the platform line had a track circuit. This was to reduce the chance of the signalman forgetting that the platform was occupied. 

 

Since just about all urban layouts have track circuits now, things must be more flexible.

 

Also, it may be that the platform track-circuit affects the interlocking and the signals seen by incoming trains. In earlier times the main signal for entry to the platform might be locked at danger by the track circuit and a calling-on arm provided to allow access when the platform was partly occupied. I don't know how that is done in modern systems.

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a Calling-On Arm on the modern railway - probably a yellow aspect displayed once an approaching train has almost stopped at the protecting red.

[caradoc]

Occasionally at Glasgow Central there would be no Driver to take the loco which had brought the ECS in for the London sleeper out to Polmadie. The loco would just remain in the platform and trains would work 'off the top'. If the platform is occupied the main aspect will not clear, instead the subsidiary aspect (two white lights) is used, therefore advising the Driver that the platform is partly occupied. Clearing the main aspect indicates that the platform is clear to the buffer stop.

[sorabain]

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a Calling-On Arm on the modern railway - probably a yellow aspect displayed once an approaching train has almost stopped at the protecting red.

 

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/RS521%20Iss%203.pdf

 

bottom of page 16

 

Position-light signals associated with a main aspect

These are normally positioned below the main aspect they are associated with, and often on the same signal post. The normal aspect for a position-light signal is unlit. This means ‘obey the main signal’. The train or movement may proceed past the signal when the position-light signal shows proceed. The driver must be prepared to stop short of any train, vehicle or obstruction.