Lost train?

[Mallard60022]

What happened was the driver was wrong routed at ferrybridge went a little bit further than they should have done then for some reason wouldn't go back.

The driver used to sign the route they had been wrong routed onto but the guard didn't

If that's the case then the Driver almost certainly made the decision to stop at the safest place they could. 

Phil

[locoholic]

But maybe the 'steering wheel' had broken (AKA the Hand Brake)!

 

 

Seems they were all at sea!

 

Left hand down a bit - mind that Shark...

[russ p]

If that's the case then the Driver almost certainly made the decision to stop at the safest place they could. 

Phil

Er no not really, coming of a 45mph restriction they should have stopped before the signal as its visable well in advance

[Ian Hargrave]

It would appear that there may have been a fatality at Donny and that is always a really difficult thing to deal with including the diversion or otherwise of services. I suspect this sort of glitch of not having route knowledge does not happen very often? It will be interesting (or not) to see if anyone bothers to correct the stupid article's message. Does the Mail (spit) have a letters page as do some other acceptable newspapers where, despite the political leaning, they actually have mostly decent and educated Journalists writing their stuff?

P

The prime reason for a newspaper's existence is to sell copy.The easiest way to do that is to make your "article" as sensationist and lurid as possible and appealing to the basic instinct of human ( is that the right word ? ) indignation.The role of the Twitter or Facebook user in this is very manna from heaven for the struggling editor....his job is done for him by angry passengers on their i phones....free of expense account journalism.You do not buy news when you purchase a newspaper,just someone's version of entertainment.

 

Fortunately there are still some brilliant ,articulate and passionate journalists out there.....even dare I say it.....on the Daily Msil.

 

Generally,the rail industry gets a bad press from all media sources.Good news doesn't sell does it ? So who's going to make the next reality TV show...."Twenty Four Hours On A Lost Train " ?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hope XC get their house in order soon. They have Sunday diversions correction, dated Saturday workings via the Pontefract area in the WTT in the July to October period. Sadly in the privatised railway route knowledge has diminished in terms of what particular drivers work over compared with 'pool' arrangements which existed at large centres like Birmingham in BR days.

Edited May 27, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[31A]

That's unfortunate.  From what I know of Cross Country (or did know before I retired 4 years ago), I'd say their crews have / had pretty comprehensive route knowledge of all sorts of diversionary routes in Yorkshire.  I'm pretty sure there's still one booked between York and Sheffield via Pontefract for the very purpose of maintaining route knowledge.

[Mike Storey]

I'm duly chastised.

 

No, don't be chastised. All the Holier than Thou comments on here are completely and deliberately missing the point.

 

As it happens, the vast majority of train passengers do not know how it all works. So if a train gets "lost", it is one hell of a surprise. Disregard all the claptrap related on here about what on earth some reporter had the temerity to report this, and let us all think "customer" (OMG the Devil's Word). What should the train operator's staff have done to placate their customers? Obviously, not enough.

 

Yep, let's call them all utter tw8ts, and pretend the world is entirely against railways. That'll do.

[caradoc]

Generally, if a train requires to divert via a route not normally used. Network Rail Control will check with the relevant TOC Control whether the Traincrew have the required route knowledge, and advise the relevant controlling Signaller(s). Sometimes, when an incident has just happened, NR Control might just ask the Signaller to liaise with the Driver direct, to save time.

 

When a train is wrong routed, the Driver should stop and question the route (unless exempted in the Sectional Appendix), due to the location of signals and line speed this might however not always be before the point of divergence has been reached. Should a train continue along a route for which the Crew are not signed, this is an operating irregularity.

[highpeakman]

No, don't be chastised. All the Holier than Thou comments on here are completely and deliberately missing the point.

 

 

To be honest I feel somewhat peeved and surprised by some of the earlier comments on this thread. I just came across the DM article and was curious about what really happened (as I have already stated) and in no way promoted or accepted the article itself for what it was. I had not even read any the DM comments section. Obviously the article itself made many angry (and I have no argument with the points raised) but I did not write the article and their story was not the point of my query, I just wanted the real story about what went wrong  - a point which many later correspondents seem to have grasped. Apparently to ask a straight question about what happened was "sloppy work" because I quoted one word from the DM title (but included a query). I feel as if I have been lambasted for mentioning it.

 

In future I think I will confine myself to just reading the excellent posts that other people contribute.

 

Edit: I forgot to Thank those who did contribute explanations about what really happened. Thanks.

Edited May 27, 2018 by highpeakman

[TheSignalEngineer]

That's unfortunate.  From what I know of Cross Country (or did know before I retired 4 years ago), I'd say their crews have / had pretty comprehensive route knowledge of all sorts of diversionary routes in Yorkshire.  I'm pretty sure there's still one booked between York and Sheffield via Pontefract for the very purpose of maintaining route knowledge.

The one I was thinking of was a dated summer train rather than upcoming possession related. There are a few strange workings around South Yorkshire for route knowledge purposes but none currently are XC as far as i can remember. TPE has a 23.30 Manchester Airport - Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Sheffield and back via Wakefield Kirkgate and Moorthorpe. VTEC has a strangely-routed Kings Cross to Newcastle going from Doncaster to York via Knottingly, Ferrybridge and Milford Junction.

[31A]

The one I was thinking of was a dated summer train rather than upcoming possession related. There are a few strange workings around South Yorkshire for route knowledge purposes but none currently are XC as far as i can remember. TPE has a 23.30 Manchester Airport - Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Sheffield and back via Wakefield Kirkgate and Moorthorpe. VTEC has a strangely-routed Kings Cross to Newcastle going from Doncaster to York via Knottingly, Ferrybridge and Milford Junction.

 

Oh sorry!  My comment wasn't meant as a reply to yours but a general comment on the incident which started this thread.  I was a bit surprised that a Cross Country crew wouldn't sign via Pontefract, but now having searched through Real Time Trains for this coming week I can't find any Cross Countries that go that way, so perhaps they don't run it any longer.

[russ p]

They sign via pontefract but not via Askern which is where the train got routed

The driver apparently is quite new to XC

[big jim]

Generally, if a train requires to divert via a route not normally used. Network Rail Control will check with the relevant TOC Control whether the Traincrew have the required route knowledge, and advise the relevant controlling Signaller(s). Sometimes, when an incident has just happened, NR Control might just ask the Signaller to liaise with the Driver direct, to save time.

 

When a train is wrong routed, the Driver should stop and question the route (unless exempted in the Sectional Appendix), due to the location of signals and line speed this might however not always be before the point of divergence has been reached. Should a train continue along a route for which the Crew are not signed, this is an operating irregularity.

I’ve been diverted quite a bit recently on various jobs, thankfully as I work a lot of yellow trains my route knowledge is very comprehensive and I have some ‘exotic’ diversionary routes up my sleeve which keep up to date as I work them regularly

 

As for being wrong routed, thankfully I’ve never ended up on a line i shouldn’t be on but it has happened a few times where I’ve been routed toward them but I’ve stopped before the junction, it happened the other week while being route conducted and my conductor gave me enough warning to come to a stop, just as well as I passed the flashing yellow signal at 125mph!

[newbryford]

I had a text from my Leeds XC driver (and RMwebber) mate earlier today. It simply said "it wasn't me".

 

As for odd routes. (Disclaimer - this may have changed with the new timetable) There is one Northern Trains Leeds-Nottingham and Nottingham-Leeds that is routed via Derby each day. Early morning and late night. (Justifying the NR 158 on my Deadmans Lane layout..........)

In one direction, it doesn't stop at Derby, This is to retain route knowledge should a diversion occur.

I believe that there is also one service each way routed Erewash Valley/Toton for the same reason.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[big jim]

I believe that there is also one service each way routed Erewash Valley/Toton for the same reason.

 

Last Saturday there was disruption at belper with someone threatening to jump off a bridge and everything was being diverted via the Erewash and Toton, saw northern, east mids and XC services passing through Toton while I was waiting to depart with an engineers train towards alfreton

[scouser]

Those paying customers, who keep the railway employees employed, have all the right to complain if they don't get what they have paid for.

They don't have to know how it works. If they buy a ticket to point A and the train should get there in an hour, then that is what they should get! Any exception to this should be explained fully to these "thick" individuals who just happen to be the reason the passenger railway exists.

I find the contempt for passengers from railway employees is disgraceful, and don't tell me I don't have to work with them. When anybody is paid to do a job and doesn't like it they should change their job.

Every job in the world would be easier if one did not have to deal with customers.

[russ p]

Those paying customers, who keep the railway employees employed, have all the right to complain if they don't get what they have paid for.

They don't have to know how it works. If they buy a ticket to point A and the train should get there in an hour, then that is what they should get! Any exception to this should be explained fully to these "thick" individuals who just happen to be the reason the passenger railway exists.

I find the contempt for passengers from railway employees is disgraceful, and don't tell me I don't have to work with them. When anybody is paid to do a job and doesn't like it they should change their job.

Every job in the world would be easier if one did not have to deal with customers.

what the hell as this to do with what happened at ferrybridge?

Yes someone messed up on the railway but no one was hurt, attitudes like this is why some railwaymen have a loathing of trainspotters!

[russ p]

Last Saturday there was disruption at belper with someone threatening to jump off a bridge and everything was being diverted via the Erewash and Toton, saw northern, east mids and XC services passing through Toton while I was waiting to depart with an engineers train towards alfreton

There always seems to be people wanting to jump off the bridge at Belper,a few years back all hell broke loose when I was on a train that was diverted because of this then a bock was taken on the castle donnington branch!

[ejstubbs]

There was a thread about wrong/unsigned routes being set on a "real railway forum" the other day*, following an incident during the recent Thameslink 'meltdown' when a train was routed on path that the driver didn't sign.  As others have said in this thread, it happens now and again, and there are rules and procedures for dealing with it, including how to work out who to blame (and, inter alia, how to apportion the lost minutes for "delay repay" purposes).

 

The thread linked to a rather amusing story from a London Underground driver to whom it once happened - while he was supposed to be doing route training for a new trainee!  http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html

 

* It's here if anyone wants to have a read.

[scouser]

To Russ p

I'm talking about all of the people on here who were insulting the thoughtless passengers on the train!

[caradoc]

Cross Country also use some unusual routes in Scotland, for example the Edinburgh Suburban Line and the Cathcart Circle, which is invaluable in keeping trains moving when things go wrong. However.....I was on one Saturday evening when an XC Glasgow C-Edinburgh train (it is mostly such lighter-loaded early morning or late evening trains booked via the unusual routes, due to the additional journey time incurred) was wrongly routed at Cathcart North Jc (Mount Florida) and continued round the Cathcart Circle (instead of heading towards Newton via Kings Park) and ended up on the Neilston branch ! That one took a bit of sorting out. 

[Mallard60022]

All this carp wording in the Mail (other quality Red Tops are available) could have been so much better if 'someone' noticing the story on Twitter or wherever, had bothered to find out what had happened and then given a simple explanation. Do Journo's not have contacts these days?

That also applies to the information that should have been given to the passengers as that would have helped to 'educate' many who obviously have a limited knowledge of how things work. In the paper it would have also 'educated ' people instead of sensationalising something which was really just an inconvenience.

Let's see if the 'popular' press tell us about 'Family Traumatised as lost car ends up in farmer's field instead of Butlins Minehead'; "The Sat Nav just took us there, there was just noting we could do and I am absolutely discusted *(sic) with the Company", winged the driver in A & E as he waited for Counselling,  or something similar.

The most worrying thing is that so many people these days just have no idea of how things happen and believe what they read or see on media outlets. Back in the day this sort of thing would have been explained by mum or dad, or someone that read their Wizard or Bunty or watched Blue Peter as a child, or did proper work at school rather than suffing for SATS, or a less stressed Train Staff member who actually understood how things work instead of just being a Costa Barrista that rides on a train all day and has no interest in anything but their own job or a Guard (there was a Guard?) who wasn't scared shi#less that they would lose their job.

Whilst this was happening, at Stanstead 'Plane Station', lightning strikes had disabled the refuelling system thus cancelling almost all flights from that place. FFS, lightning and aircraft fuel. OMG there could have been Armageddon...............oh, hang on, it was the computer system not the storage tanks/pipes/tankers/ staff. 

I'm out of here.

A. Observer

 

*typical spelling on the local Town Facebook page!!!!!!!

Edited May 28, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Ian Hargrave]

I'm not altogether sure that in this case the "stranded" passengers would have understood ..."Er,sorry,we don't know the way...." In any case,we don't actually have verbatim information of the dialogue that...presumably.....took place between train crew....and "customers",the only record atm being from social media users.It will be interesting to see whether or not any further information is forthcoming from XC on the matter and whether or not it reaches the media.Certainly,financial compensation will be available to those unfortunately inconvenienced by it.Maybe they will Tweet ? Maybe they will....as they certainly should ...e mailXC with their complaint rather than broadcast it into cyberspace.Do they want redress....or just to be heard ?

 

Which brings me to the one and only occasion that I have had in ten years travel with XC to make an active complaint.That being on a local rather than long distance service viz..Nottingham-Derby-Birmingham....used between Derby and Burton after changing trains on a journey from Sheffield .My wife and I regularly use Senior Derby County Council concessionary day Wayfarer tickets.On this single occasion,the guard/train manager refused to accept them and conducted himself in bullying and unpleasant manner,threatening us with ejection from the train at the next stop.Fortunately in this case it was our destination...and not Willington as in some cases.

 

I sent two blistering sharp emails detailing events.One to DerbysCC and the other to XC in Birmingham. I received a fulsome apology in both cases.The incident has not been repeated,although it did happen to a friend of mine a year or so ago.

 

I find XC train crew decent,helpful and friendly,often in the most trying of circumstances.....overcrowded trains being a major concern....especially in the frequent use of 4 car Voyager 220's on 221 diagrams...and even then overcrowded.The barista trolley doesn't help either,especially when it sells tinnies to over fuelled fans on match days.Luggage space on a Voyager is both inadequate and insecure ( Yes ,it's open season for a thief ) which is why we only use it for day travel.The crew ....usually either Geordies or Brummies....cope with human foibles in all their odd variety .eg fare dodging and drunkenness....usually with unflappability and a smile.

 

It's a long way from Penzance to Aberdeen....fighting all the way to keep to schedule and running paths in competition with other TOC

such as at Swinton Junction with TPE crossing their path until Totley or ECML users from Doncaster northwards.

 

In the main XC perform an essential arterial rail link very well indeed.The route is long and complex.In such circumstances,things will inevitably go wrong.They did on Friday.Hey ho....

 

Please increase train capacity and provide better,secure luggage space.Maybe then we'll be able to travel all the way to Scotland by train rather than use FlyBe.Maybe a replacement for the now 16 year old Voyager.They're beginning to look a bit tired aren't they ? No probably not..not in my lifetime anyway.Make do and mend....it's what we do best

[Mallard60022]

I'm not altogether sure that in this case the "stranded" passengers would have understood ..."Er,sorry,we don't know the way...." In any case,we don't actually have verbatim information of the dialogue that...presumably.....took place between train crew....and "customers",the only record atm being from social media users.It will be interesting to see whether or not any further information is forthcoming from XC on the matter and whether or not it reaches the media.Certainly,financial compensation will be available to those unfortunately inconvenienced by it.Maybe they will Tweet ? Maybe they will....as they certainly should ...e mailXC with their complaint rather than broadcast it into cyberspace.Do they want redress....or just to be heard ?

 

Which brings me to the one and only occasion that I have had in ten years travel with XC to make an active complaint.That being on a local rather than long distance service viz..Nottingham-Derby-Birmingham....used between Derby and Burton after changing trains on a journey from Sheffield .My wife and I regularly use Senior Derby County Council concessionary day Wayfarer tickets.On this single occasion,the guard/train manager refused to accept them and conducted himself in bullying and unpleasant manner,threatening us with ejection from the train at the next stop.Fortunately in this case it was our destination...and not Willington as in some cases.

 

I sent two blistering sharp emails detailing events.One to DerbysCC and the other to XC in Birmingham. I received a fulsome apology in both cases.The incident has not been repeated,although it did happen to a friend of mine a year or so ago.

 

I find XC train crew decent,helpful and friendly,often in the most trying of circumstances.....overcrowded trains being a major concern....especially in the frequent use of 4 car Voyager 220's on 221 diagrams...and even then overcrowded.The barista trolley doesn't help either,especially when it sells tinnies to over fuelled fans on match days.Luggage space on a Voyager is both inadequate and insecure ( Yes ,it's open season for a thief ) which is why we only use it for day travel.The crew ....usually either Geordies or Brummies....cope with human foibles in all their odd variety .eg fare dodging and drunkenness....usually with unflappability and a smile.

 

It's a long way from Penzance to Aberdeen....fighting all the way to keep to schedule and running paths in competition with other TOC

such as at Swinton Junction with TPE crossing their path until Totley or ECML users from Doncaster northwards.

 

In the main XC perform an essential arterial rail link very well indeed.The route is long and complex.In such circumstances,things will inevitably go wrong.They did on Friday.Hey ho....

 

Please increase train capacity and provide better,secure luggage space.Maybe then we'll be able to travel all the way to Scotland by train rather than use FlyBe.Maybe a replacement for the now 16 year old Voyager.They're beginning to look a bit tired aren't they ? No probably not..not in my lifetime anyway.Make do and mend....it's what we do best

Excellent. That's what part of a decent follow up article would look like in a decent paper.

Philth

[The Stationmaster]

So some facts.

 

The train concerned was 1V91, 14.36 Newcastle to Reading (it took me about 5 minutes to establish that on a freely available internet site). The train left Doncaster Right Time at 15.59 and next appeared at a booked timing point  - Swinton - at 17.26 running 78 minutes late, it arrived Sheffield at 17.45, 85 minutes late and was terminated 'due to an issue with the train crew'. (N.B. That would no doubt be an NR delay attribution and should in my view be treated as 'initial pending resolution with the train operator').

 

As no passing time was recorded at either Hexthorpe Jcn or Conisborough the implication would appear to be that the train was misroute or re-routed from Doncaster but where it then went and what route it took is open to a degree of conjecture as is the reason for it.  However it should be noted that various XC services were booked to be rerouted on Friday between Sheffield and York (and were not running via Doncaster because of their changed route).  On the face of things the Driver might well have run out of route knowledge but that then raises the issue of why he took the revised/wrong route from Doncaster.  I doubt that what really happened will ever make it to any sort of public arena so apart from knowing the train did not run over its booked route between Doncaster and Swinton we know no other facts.