Stanley Melrose Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 I have some Bachmann LMS Period I coaches 34-226 Corridor Brake End and 34-252 Corridor Composite. Both are in LMS crimson livery. My query is whether Bachmann ever produced either of these coaches in BR blood and custard or BR maroon liveries. If so, can anyone let me have the relevant product codes, please? Many thanks in anticipation, Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted May 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2018 I have some Bachmann LMS Period I coaches 34-226 Corridor Brake End and 34-252 Corridor Composite. Both are in LMS crimson livery. My query is whether Bachmann ever produced either of these coaches in BR blood and custard or BR maroon liveries. If so, can anyone let me have the relevant product codes, please? Many thanks in anticipation, Stan I can't answer for Bachmann, but there were maroon and crimson / cream versions by the original producer Mainline Railways; see :- http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000444/1000588/1000636/0/Mainline_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Coaches/prodlist.aspx A search on Ebay for Mainline Railways coaches will find quite a few. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted May 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2018 Stan check this web site out you want page 39 it should be what you are looking for. https://web.archive.org/web/20171112221118/http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/branchline_products_by_item_no_rev11.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 (edited) The bodies of these are pretty accurate. I compared with drawings in the Jenkinson's Historical Carriage Drawings Vol 1 and they are spot on. The underframes are quite dated and would beneft from adding Comet components. A significant issue is lack of all 3rd coaches. For the brave there are etched sides and ends available from Comet. In their LMS guise the livery is hopelessly inaccurate. They never received the 1934 lining scheme (I've never found any evidence) and would have spent their lives on LMS with the Midland panelled style. This is not a style that is easy to do. I reckon the carmine/cream livery is quite plausible. Not sure if they would have survived long enough to receive post 1956 maroon. They are certainly worth scrubbing up. John Edited May 18, 2018 by brossard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted May 18, 2018 Author Share Posted May 18, 2018 Many thanks to all who replied - just the information I was seeking! Cheers, Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
90164 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 By BR days and certainly by BR Maroon days many of the coaches would have had bits of panelling replaced. Photos I've seen suggest it would be rare for any of them by the late 50s to still be fully panelled. I'm not sure how you could replicate this appearance. Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted May 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2018 By BR days and certainly by BR Maroon days many of the coaches would have had bits of panelling replaced. Photos I've seen suggest it would be rare for any of them by the late 50s to still be fully panelled. I'm not sure how you could replicate this appearance. Frank Fill in the panels in question with your preferred filler; (Milliput in my case); and sand back when hard. The local carriage sidings, where I did my trainspotting, were filled with rakes of ancient coaches that only moved on summer Bank Holidays. Period 1 coaches were very much in evidence; patch-panelled, painted in faded maroon and devoid of lining - just the thing for a day trip from Leicester to Skeggy! Regards, John isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 The bodies of these are pretty accurate ........... ............. apart from being one or two mil' too wide ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 (edited) They never received the 1934 lining scheme (I've never found any evidence) and would have spent their lives on LMS with the Midland panelled style. This seems an implausible sweeping statement at best. There aren't many clear pictures of period 1 coaches in any livery. Typically coaches were repainted at about 7 year intervals and so this would mean that the later built period one coaches from 1927/8 would have been repainted in the 1934 scheme at their first repaint although earlier ones would have got a repaint in the original scheme in the early in 1930s and perhaps a second repaint in the simple scheme just before the war. Any repainted after the war would certainly have got the simplified lining (wartime repaints had non at all). Edited May 21, 2018 by asmay2002 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Andy I have searched high and low for a picture of a PI coach in simplified lining and never found one. If you know of any evidence please let us know. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 21, 2018 (edited) From Pat Hammond's book the BR livery LMS Period 1 stock was as follows:- LMS 57' Period 1 Composite BR Maroon M3541M Replica Railways 12202 BR Maroon M3565M Bachmann 34-250 Crimson/Cream M3672M Bachmann 34-300 LMS 57' Period 1 Brake 3rd BR Maroon M5334M Replica Railways 12212 BR Maroon M5315M Bachmann 34-225 Crimson/Cream M5267M Bachmann 34-275 These models were based on the Mainline version but Godfrey Hayes at Replica had the roof modified with separately added vents and the hard integral corridor connections were replaced by a separate flexible one. The Replica version was made in 1989 and the Bachmann ones in 1990. The lack of an all 3rd is an inconvenience rather than a total disaster for BR modellers as in later years they were often mixed with Period 2 and early period 3 stock and regularly appeared in short trains which had Brake/Compo/Brake formations. As far as I can work out the totals of all-door corridor stock built in the early days of the LMS were Model versions Brake 3rd 5-compartment 125 Composite 4x3rd 3x1st 201 Other versions Brake 3rd 14 Composite 30 Third 250 it should be noted that a large number of these coaches were used overseas in WW2, some having been converted to Ambulance Train vehicles. Some never returned and a lot of those which did were converted to Full Brakes in 1946-49. Among these were about 60 of the modelled versions including numbers 3672 and 5315 used by Bachmann. 3672 was still running as BG No. M31175M in 1965. The last BG conversions were scrapped around 1967. All of the ones which had remained in passenger use were withdrawn c1957-62 although some lasted in departmental use. 3565 became DM395776 allocated to the CS&TE Signal Box Construction depot at Crewe. It was at British Railways Staff Association at Aylesbury in the early 1980s, and is now in a semi-derelict condition at Peak Rail. Edited May 21, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 The lack of an all 3rd is an inconvenience rather than a total disaster for BR modellers as in later years they were often mixed with Period 2 and early period 3 stock and regularly appeared in short trains which had Brake/Compo/Brake formations. The Corridor Thirds on the corridor side are almost the same as the Composite. If the blank panel were opened out to a window, the roof vents changed and the corridor wall altered to give eight compartments then, as long as the coach wasn't turned round, it would easily pass for a full Third. For a full conversion you'd probably need to sacrifice parts of the compartmentside of a Brake Third, which is much less economical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 (edited) Andy I have searched high and low for a picture of a PI coach in simplified lining and never found one. If you know of any evidence please let us know. Try this scanned from 'An Illustrated History of LMS Coaches 1923-57' by David Jenkinson and Bob Essery.... Pureley an example of how LMS 1934-47 livery looked on a Period I coach. Even on a model, the light reflected off the raised beading could be construed for full panelled lining on an old black & white photo... Edited May 22, 2018 by coachmann 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Lovely Larry. I have the book and completely missed that text. It's an important point for LMS modellers because when upgrading these coaches, the simplified lining is a lot easier to do that the panelled (something I doubt I could do). I'm still troubled by the lack of any prototype photographs of PI coaches in simplified lining. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Hi Could you make a full third from 2 brake thirds? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) Lovely Larry. I have the book and completely missed that text. It's an important point for LMS modellers because when upgrading these coaches, the simplified lining is a lot easier to do that the panelled (something I doubt I could do). I'm still troubled by the lack of any prototype photographs of PI coaches in simplified lining. John The clearest pictures I have come across show the simple livery on ex.LNWR coaches. In their case the double yellow waist lining was applied to the waist panel depending on the style of panelling, but the two cantrail yellow lines were often omitted altogether. Looking for photos clearly showing lining on coaches in the mid to late 1930's is like looking for a needle in a hay stack because the well known railway photographers of their time took mainly ¾-front wedge shots for maximum impact when published. Amateurs copied the 'masters'. Jenkinson & Essery did a lot of original research from the early 1960's onward and I doubt anyone else will come up with alternative information at this stage of the game. Simpler liveries were adopted by the GWR, LMS and SR for financial reasons following the 1929-30 depression. LMS full panelled gold leaf and fine red lines livery was very expensive and time consuming to apply, it's last application being on the initial Stanier flush sided coaches of 1933. The more these coaches came on stream, the more Period I coaches were cascaded to less important trains. Those coaches given full panelled livery last would no doubt retain it until the late 1930's and some through the war years when patch painting and varnishing was more often the simplest, cheapest and quickest way of preserving an external finish. Edited May 22, 2018 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2018 Hi Could you make a full third from 2 brake thirds? Ian Not easily. It would probably be easier to use a compo with etched sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Hi Could you make a full third from 2 brake thirds? Ian No, because the corridor side is different (and two Brake Thirds would leave you with the toilet at the wrong end of the compartments for one end). It's easier to just alter the corridor side of a Composite - see my post no.12 above. The compartments from a Brake Third could be spliced in with the Third Class ones of a composite, but some sideways adjustment will be needed as the toilets at the ends of Composites and Brake Thirds are not quite the same size, hence my suggestion of 'faking it' on the Corridor side only. On most layouts you don't get to see both sides of coaches. Also one coach is cheaper than two! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) Never having been a cutter & shutter. it is too much effort for so little achievement if one ends up with a compromise. I considered the simplest way was to etch them, which is what I did. But I started with the Midland-built variants started by Reid around 1922 and moved onto LMS Period I stock afterwards. Once the chassis had been etched, it was only a matter of etching different 57' bodies. The real coaches were designed to use standard components and production did not cease until 1930.... Edited May 23, 2018 by coachmann 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Following up on Larry's post, I agree that etched brass is the way to go. You don't have to make these, Comet (now with Wizard Models) do them. Before making the switch to 0 gauge, I started a project to make a 4 coach rake of these (Brake, Compo, 3rd, Brake). The lack of an all 3rd is a nuisance but I got myself Comet sides and ends and converted one of the coaches to 3rd: I did cut and shut the interior. I also used Comet parts to upgrade the underframe. Sadly these will never get finished now and all four are for sale. If anyone wants these please PM me. Another follow up to an earlier comment about the Bachmann coach width - I measured mine and they come out to 9'3" which is cock on. John 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Never having been a cutter & shutter. it is too much effort for so little achievement if one ends up with a compromise. I considered the simplest way was to etch them, which is what I did. I can't really disagree there, though I would say if using etched sides it would be best to have all the coaches of the same type etched, especially if they are used next to each other. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) I can't really disagree there, though I would say if using etched sides it would be best to have all the coaches of the same type etched, especially if they are used next to each other.I looked at cut'n'shut for my excursion stock but have bought Comet sides ready to use on the donor vehicles. Plastic RTR ones can look O.K. with them but need re-painting to match. In addition painting the inside edges of the windows black helps to disguise the thickness of plastic sides.One vehicle I intend to do is a representation of one of the full brakes converted from the returned Ambulance train stock. IIRC about 60 of these were done during 1946-49 from the BTK and CK of the type done by Bachmann. Edited May 23, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) One vehicle I intend to do is a representation of one of the full brakes converted from the returned Ambulance train stock. IIRC about 60 of these were done during 1946-49 from the BTK and CK of the type done by Bachmann. I look forward to seeing your ex Ambulance full brake. Edited May 23, 2018 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shunny Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Did Bachmann not announce that one of the moulds was damaged during the last production of these? I wonder if they may retool in the future as they have recently with the Thomson and Bullied coaches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Another follow up to an earlier comment about the Bachmann coach width - I measured mine and they come out to 9'3" which is cock on. John Maybe it was just the Mainline originals that were too wide, then - sorry ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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