ECML franchise to be broucht back under Public Ownership

[Hobby]

I didn't think the TOCs were alllowed to do "mandatory reservations" as part of the franchise agreements as that would go against the British philosophy of "turn up and go"? I know VWC wanted to do that right at the beginning but were told they couldn't, there always has to be some unreserved seats, a percentage of the whole I believe...

[jjb1970]

Mandatory seat reservations are associated with some discounted tickets, it is part of the deal for getting a cheap ticket. You can always buy a turn up and go ticket.

[Reorte]

Mandatory seat reservations are associated with some discounted tickets, it is part of the deal for getting a cheap ticket. You can always buy a turn up and go ticket.

"Mandatory reservations" implies that you need one to get on the train, not that it's associated with a particular ticket, so it is rather a different kettle of fish. It's not a completely new idea, the APT was intended to require reservations.

[ejstubbs]

Europe is increasingly using regulations rather than directives, which allows less room for national interpretation and wriggling.

 

Although even EU regulations often leave room for national laws to extend the rules - or even deliberate gaps which national governments are required to fill with their own laws.  I know (because I've been up to my neck these last few months in trying to interpret the thing for my company) that GDPR* has such openings for local variation.

 

* In the formulation of which the UK ICO was closely involved, before anyone starts banging on about "faceless bureaucrats in Brussels".  The ICO even has a face.

[ejstubbs]

There is actually a site that has a list of the myths. https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ Makes you realize that the UK politicians always blame the EU if a decision is unpopular..

 

It might be fun/instructive if someone were to go through that list and find out how many of those myths originated from the pen of the individual who later told the BBC: "...I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive effect ... and it really gave me this I suppose rather weird sense of power."  (Note that the newspaper for whom said individual worked at the time - after having been sacked from another newspaper for making up a quote - saw fit to publish this article in 2016.)

[Coryton]

Mandatory seat reservations are associated with some discounted tickets, it is part of the deal for getting a cheap ticket. You can always buy a turn up and go ticket.

 

I haven't come across it for a while but timetables used to show "compulsory reservation" trains, both under BR and after privatisation.

 

And the last time I looked (a few years ago) GNER/NXEC/East Coast/whoever it was at the time made their trains compulsory reservation over Christmas.

[Coryton]

"Mandatory reservations" implies that you need one to get on the train, not that it's associated with a particular ticket, so it is rather a different kettle of fish. It's not a completely new idea, the APT was intended to require reservations.

 

I think that was because of the way the train was effectively split into two halves by the power cars, so they wanted to make sure everybody was allocated one half or the other rather than all trying to pile into one.

 

I think if you didn't have a reservation you were supposed to pick up a 'boarding pass', though I don't know if that allocated you a seat, coach, half-train or what.

 

Of course a 2x5 IET suffers from the same potential problem, compounded by the fact that unlike an APT both halves may not end up in the same place.

[rockershovel]

There were always trains which require reservations, ECML peak services have verged on, or have been unacceptably or downright dangerously overcrowded for many years.

 

What is new, courtesy of VTEC is that “mandatory reservations” mean that you can’t, or st least shouldn’t, get on any OTHER train with that ticket. I arrived early and boarded an off-peak service, and (at least in principle) would have been liable for some penalty - although what it might have been, given that I already held a ticket costing more than the off-peak fare, I don’t know.

 

So, I paid more than anyone else in the same class, didn’t get a seat, someone else on my original (grossly overcrowded) service got MY seat for their peak fare .. and that’s wrong, in some way?

Edited May 22, 2018 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

... what happens to VTEC train and station staff, at that point?

 

As far as I can see, DfT have been practicing constructive dismissal for years and getting away with it. Certainly the constant all-change that attends the AMP system in the utilities sector is much disliked by all involved.

[Mallard60022]

Mandatory seat reservations are associated with some discounted tickets, it is part of the deal for getting a cheap ticket. You can always buy a turn up and go ticket.

Yup, however, if there is a guard/ticket bod, as there are on small trains such as Pacers where they can access all doors easily, they can actually prevent passengers from getting on if the train is grossly overcrowded and that can cause conflict for the poor old guard. Seen it happen.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Am I correct in thinking that on many trains abroad you can not just turn up and go?

Phil

[009 micro modeller]

I'm not sure if it's stopped now, but didn't they have a thing where you were guaranteed a seat if you booked in advance? (ie you should have a reservation). Think this was only East Coast.

[Hobby]

What is new, courtesy of VTEC is that “mandatory reservations” mean that you can’t, or st least shouldn’t, get on any OTHER train with that ticket. I arrived early and boarded an off-peak service, and (at least in principle) would have been liable for some penalty - although what it might have been, given that I already held a ticket costing more than the off-peak fare, I don’t know.

 

If you are talking about an "Advance" ticket, then yes that is only valid on the one train, just like the same sort of ticket for a plane. It is supposed to help even out loadings so they can direct people to the quieter trains by selling cheaper tickets for those trains to encourage people to travel on them. If you get on another train with an advance ticket then it's not valid, simple as that, when you buy one it makes it perfectly clear, if you take the time to read beyond the price being paid... But most people don't read what they are buying and so we end up in a "discussion" due to them not looking at the T&Cs... The scenario I use is that you wouldn't turn up at an airport or sea port and expect to get on any plane/boat with a ticket for a specific plane or boat so why should you expect those rules not to apply on trains... Cost of the ticket is irrelevant, it's for that one service, no others, it tells you that on the ticket as well as on the 'net.

 

If you want to travel any time then get an open ticket, not a restricted one...

 

Simples...

Edited May 22, 2018 by Hobby

[Hobby]

Am I correct in thinking that on many trains abroad you can not just turn up and go?

Phil

 

In Austria and Czech Republic we just turned up and went, on EC, IC and Railjet services as well as locals. I think some of the High Speed stuff may have restrictions and some of the open access operators may but the rest are free for alls like ours based on recent experience...

 

I'm not sure if it's stopped now, but didn't they have a thing where you were guaranteed a seat if you booked in advance? (ie you should have a reservation). Think this was only East Coast.

 

I believe the condition of the issue of advance tickets is that it will include a reservation, though you do not pay for that reservation, as the ticket is only valid on that trains that makes sense...

Edited May 22, 2018 by Hobby

[jjb1970]

Yup, however, if there is a guard/ticket bod, as there are on small trains such as Pacers where they can access all doors easily, they can actually prevent passengers from getting on if the train is grossly overcrowded and that can cause conflict for the poor old guard. Seen it happen.

Phil

Indeed, but that is an inherent risk if a service is chronically overloaded.

[JeffP]

In France, you had to buy a seat reservation in order to use the TGV's. I'm unsure if that is still true, no standing allowed.

It used to cost 10FF, roughly £1.

[rockershovel]

The “airline” analogy isn’t valid. Budget airlines like RyanAir operate the opposite model - a specific flight and no other.

 

ECML in its past iterations, like the rest of the Rail network, operated a “turn up and go” model, subject to compulsory reservations on specific peak-hours services, and optional reservations at any time of day. What is new, is that VTEC in particular are attempting to introduce an airline style model on a specific service, and (while they are about it) removing the option to travel on another service altogether. AFAIK I also didn’t have the option to travel on the EMU service, whatever it is currently called?

 

And it needs to be said that if you have an airline ticket (other than a budget line like RyanAir) and miss your flight, the airline will (mostly) fit you in somewhere or other, sometimes at no cost, provided you give them some warning.

 

Another thing which left me deeply unimpressed a while ago, was travelling from Hartlepool to Peterborough. This is a shaggy dog of a journey, with various more-or-less roundabout options. I arrived at Hartlepool to find that for some railway reason, my anticipated train wasn’t running and I was recommended to take an alternative route. This was all well and good, except that this produced chaos as the travelling public at large locked horns with the railway staff, due to almost no one having a ticket specific to the specific route they were following. As an advert for franchising, it would be difficult to envisage a worse ..

[Hobby]

1. The “airline” analogy isn’t valid. Budget airlines like RyanAir operate the opposite model - a specific flight and no other.

 

 

2. And it needs to be said that if you have an airline ticket (other than a budget line like RyanAir) and miss your flight, the airline will (mostly) fit you in somewhere or other, sometimes at no cost, provided you give them some warning.

 

 

1. Yes it is, what you describe is an ADVANCE ticket, if you have one of those, like the airlines, it's not valid on any other train. No difference whatsoever. It's not just Budget Airlines that issue such tickets either, I've travelled on national airlines with similar restrictions.

 

Perhaps you need to clarify exactly what sort of ticket you had, from what you said initially I understood it to be a ticket for a specific train at less cost than the booked single open fare for that train, as such, and if it said "Booked Train Only" or "Valid only with reservation" on it then it was an Advance ticket. If it didn't specify a train then it was an Open ticket and only restricted by being either peak or off peak.

 

2. We can too, and do, but like the airline you need to ask before getting on, you have a good excuse and are polite many of us will let you travel. But if you get on board without asking and are rude to us then you'll get charged. Alternatively you can change it online if you know things are going wrong and you'll miss your booked train, most ticket sales sites will let you change booked train times, many without extra costs.

[Mallard60022]

I'm always amazed at how many seats are 'reserved' but not taken on trains I use on the ECML.

Phil

[Hobby]

Often you'll find the passenger on board but in another seat because they didn't like the one they were allocated... Works OK until it gets busy then all hell breaks loose!

[rodent279]

There were always trains which require reservations, ECML peak services have verged on, or have been unacceptably or downright dangerously overcrowded for many years.

 

What is new, courtesy of VTEC is that “mandatory reservations” mean that you can’t, or st least shouldn’t, get on any OTHER train with that ticket. I arrived early and boarded an off-peak service, and (at least in principle) would have been liable for some penalty - although what it might have been, given that I already held a ticket costing more than the off-peak fare, I don’t know.

 

So, I paid more than anyone else in the same class, didn’t get a seat, someone else on my original (grossly overcrowded) service got MY seat for their peak fare .. and that’s wrong, in some way?

Some years ago I was traveling from Fort William to Euston, by day. It was a Saturday, and I was booked on the first bus out of the Fort.

 

Due to having a few too many whiskies the previous night, I missed the bus. No problem, I just waited for the next, explained what had happened to the driver, he let me on, no worries.

 

I got to Glasgow two hours later than planned, and about 1/2 later than my booked Virgin Pendo to Euston. I got on the next one, explained myself to the guard, who said no problem. Due to engineering work, the train terminated at Carlisle & we had a bus to Lancaster. Again no problems.

 

At Lancaster I got on the next waiting Pendo, and again explained myself to the guard. She was quite happy for me to travel, but said she was only going to Preston, so there would be a new guard on from there and I'd need to explain myself to him.

 

So I hung around, and at Preston when the new guard got on, explained for the third time why I was travelling on a train 2hrs after my booked train.

 

He was having none of it, and charged me the full excess Preston-Euston. £76, kerr-ching.

Edited May 22, 2018 by rodent279

[Zomboid]

Often you'll find the passenger on board but in another seat because they didn't like the one they were allocated... Works OK until it gets busy then all hell breaks loose!

My reserved seat is usually one with a blank plastic panel where the window should be. As I usually specifically requested a window seat I'll look for another (unreserved) seat that actually has a window and sit there. Sitting where I'm supposed to is a last resort...

 

Those seats at the edge of the carriage but without a window should really not be labelled as a window seat.

[Glorious NSE]

What is new, is that VTEC in particular are attempting to introduce an airline style model on a specific service, and (while they are about it) removing the option to travel on another service altogether.

 

 

But this is not, at all, a VTEC thing, or even a new thing....?

[rockershovel]

But this is not, at all, a VTEC thing, or even a new thing....?

The general view among Peterborough commuters appears to be that whoever follows on, they will be well rid of Beardy....

[rockershovel]

1. Yes it is, what you describe is an ADVANCE ticket, if you have one of those, like the airlines, it's not valid on any other train. No difference whatsoever. It's not just Budget Airlines that issue such tickets either, I've travelled on national airlines with similar restrictions.

 

Perhaps you need to clarify exactly what sort of ticket you had, from what you said initially I understood it to be a ticket for a specific train at less cost than the booked single open fare for that train, as such, and if it said "Booked Train Only" or "Valid only with reservation" on it then it was an Advance ticket. If it didn't specify a train then it was an Open ticket and only restricted by being either peak or off peak.

 

2. We can too, and do, but like the airline you need to ask before getting on, you have a good excuse and are polite many of us will let you travel. But if you get on board without asking and are rude to us then you'll get charged. Alternatively you can change it online if you know things are going wrong and you'll miss your booked train, most ticket sales sites will let you change booked train times, many without extra costs.

What particularly upset me was that the conductor/guard on the WAGN train, whatever they are now called, was obliging enough to warn me before I got on board. I’d happily have completed my journey on the “cattle class” electric, than sit around for two hours at KX... but apparently not.

 

TBH, as an occasional traveller, I now avoid the railway, mostly because of the complexity of the booking system. At some times of day I can get a taxi from LHR or Stansted to Peterborough, for the cost of the fare...

Edited May 22, 2018 by rockershovel