jamespetts Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 On 20/09/2020 at 18:25, Kaput said: Anyone fitted a stay alive to these little beasties yet? If so, where did you put it and how did you wire it up? I do not have one of these, although I am considering getting one. Fitting a stay alive charging circuit and capacitors to a locomotive with a Next18 decoder requires some very careful soldering. I have done it with Dapol N gauge class 50s and a Zimo Next18 decoder and Zimo charging circuit, but I needed to use a multimeter to find precisely where to solder for the ground and common positive and then solder very carefully to surface mount components. However, this was successful and I have fitted quite a few N gauge class 50s with stay alives in this way. The Dapol terrier has a built-in speaker. For those who do not wish to use this speaker for sound, this could be a good place to fit the charging circuit and capacitors (use at least 5x 470uF 16v surface mount tantalums with the Zimo SACC16). Having seen the size of the speaker on one of Jennifer Kirk's videos, this volume should be sufficient for a Zimo SACC16 and circa 5x 16v 470uF surface mount tantalum capacitors if I have parsed the image correctly. If using sound, I am not sure whether there is sufficient space. Having seen videos of the inside of the Hornby terrier, which uses a 6 pin chip, that appears to have no more space than the Dapol version, and even less if one is not removing the speaker. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 22, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2020 On 16/09/2020 at 19:29, truffy said: Hmmm, I think I prefer the shade of green on Hornby's. The Rails/Dapol one seems to be edging uncomfortably towards malachite On 16/09/2020 at 19:41, Pre Grouping fan said: Rails terrier seems to match Bachmanns E4 in shade which I think is more accurate than the Maunsell shade Hornby use on both their maunsell stock and loco's. We have had this debate before. For what its worth my take is that both manufacturers have got it wrong - albut in different ways (Granted not being 90 odd years old my personal reference is the livery applied to the Maunsell society engines at the Bluebell). I think that in terms of the shade of Green, that applied to Hornby products is far closer to Maunsel Olive Green and Bachmanns varient has too much of a blueish tone coming through.... .... BUT.... When it comes to the shade of yellow used for the lettering all Hornby products is far too pale and the Bachmann colour is far more accurate. When Kernow produced their O2 tank in Maunsell livery a few years ago they went for a combination of Hornby Green and Bachmann lettering which looks spot on when compared to photos of the aforementioned Blubell locos, but looks odd against both Hornby and Bachmann products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWsTrains Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 12 hours ago, jamespetts said: I do not have one of these, although I am considering getting one. Fitting a stay alive charging circuit and capacitors to a locomotive with a Next18 decoder requires some very careful soldering. I have done it with Dapol N gauge class 50s and a Zimo Next18 decoder and Zimo charging circuit, but I needed to use a multimeter to find precisely where to solder for the ground and common positive and then solder very carefully to surface mount components. However, this was successful and I have fitted quite a few N gauge class 50s with stay alives in this way. The Dapol terrier has a built-in speaker. For those who do not wish to use this speaker for sound, this could be a good place to fit the charging circuit and capacitors (use at least 5x 470uF 16v surface mount tantalums with the Zimo SACC16). Having seen the size of the speaker on one of Jennifer Kirk's videos, this volume should be sufficient for a Zimo SACC16 and circa 5x 16v 470uF surface mount tantalum capacitors if I have parsed the image correctly. If using sound, I am not sure whether there is sufficient space. Having seen videos of the inside of the Hornby terrier, which uses a 6 pin chip, that appears to have no more space than the Dapol version, and even less if one is not removing the speaker. I think there is a much easier way to tackle the direct wiring issue if using ZIMO chips as their on-line manual identifies the correct terminals to use for connecting Stay Alives. I've followed their guidance successfully. However, I was less clear whether a chip wired in this way could then be fitted into the NEXT socket, i.e. do the extra wires foul the socket access? Regarding this point I've already commented on Monday at 08:44 - to my mind this is not clear and in the absence of a response from Rails I remain sceptical. The point about removing the Speaker is a good one to accommodate the Stay Alive kit, if indeed one can be plugged in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 20 minutes ago, BWsTrains said: I think there is a much easier way to tackle the direct wiring issue if using ZIMO chips as their on-line manual identifies the correct terminals to use for connecting Stay Alives. I've followed their guidance successfully. However, I was less clear whether a chip wired in this way could then be fitted into the NEXT socket, i.e. do the extra wires foul the socket access? Regarding this point I've already commented on Monday at 08:44 - to my mind this is not clear and in the absence of a response from Rails I remain sceptical. The point about removing the Speaker is a good one to accommodate the Stay Alive kit, if indeed one can be plugged in. The manual does not, unless I have missed it, in which case I should be grateful if you could point me to the page in question as this would make connecting stay-alives easier for me in future, indicate solder points for connecting the SACC16 charging circuit to the Zimo MX618N18 Next18 decoder, although does do this for a wide variety of other decoders, including 6 pin models such as the MX617 series. In principle, one needs to connect the SACC16 between ground and common positive; on most Zimo chips, there are solder pads for both of these, but not on the MX618N18 chips. The idea is, I believe, that there should be solder pads on the locomotive's PCB, but this is in the manufacturer's discretion, and Dapol unfortunately do not seem to provide these for their Next18 fitted models. Thus, one needs to find traces on the circuit board that correspond to these terminals and solder to these. Ideally, one would do it from the locomotive's own PCB, but it can also be done from the decoder itself. I found a way of doing this from the locomotive's PCB on the N gauge class 50s, but only after I had connected a few with one of the wires soldered to the decoder itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 13 hours ago, phil-b259 said: We have had this debate before. For what its worth my take is that both manufacturers have got it wrong - albut in different ways (Granted not being 90 odd years old my personal reference is the livery applied to the Maunsell society engines at the Bluebell). I think that in terms of the shade of Green, that applied to Hornby products is far closer to Maunsel Olive Green and Bachmanns varient has too much of a blueish tone coming through.... .... BUT.... When it comes to the shade of yellow used for the lettering all Hornby products is far too pale and the Bachmann colour is far more accurate. When Kernow produced their O2 tank in Maunsell livery a few years ago they went for a combination of Hornby Green and Bachmann lettering which looks spot on when compared to photos of the aforementioned Blubell locos, but looks odd against both Hornby and Bachmann products. It always puzzled me why Bachmann's 473 was SO much darker than the real 473. I agree Hornby's Green with Bachmann's yellow would be ideal. I think it was in the Hornby H thread ( I can't really remember) I took some photos comparing all the different SR Greens in different lighting on my layout, direct sunlight and shade make huge differences. Be interested to see if the D comes out in the same shade as Rails Terrier or if they go more olive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 29 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said: It always puzzled me why Bachmann's 473 was SO much darker than the real 473. I agree Hornby's Green with Bachmann's yellow would be ideal. I think it was in the Hornby H thread ( I can't really remember) I took some photos comparing all the different SR Greens in different lighting on my layout, direct sunlight and shade make huge differences. Be interested to see if the D comes out in the same shade as Rails Terrier or if they go more olive. I've heard previously when the Bachmann E4 came out that the colour Bachmann use is closer to the correct shade and the colour used on B473 was actually wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWsTrains Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 8 hours ago, jamespetts said: The manual does not, unless I have missed it, in which case I should be grateful if you could point me to the page in question as this would make connecting stay-alives easier for me in future, indicate solder points for connecting the SACC16 charging circuit to the Zimo MX618N18 Next18 decoder, although does do this for a wide variety of other decoders, including 6 pin models such as the MX617 series. In principle, one needs to connect the SACC16 between ground and common positive; on most Zimo chips, there are solder pads for both of these, but not on the MX618N18 chips. The idea is, I believe, that there should be solder pads on the locomotive's PCB, but this is in the manufacturer's discretion, and Dapol unfortunately do not seem to provide these for their Next18 fitted models. Thus, one needs to find traces on the circuit board that correspond to these terminals and solder to these. Ideally, one would do it from the locomotive's own PCB, but it can also be done from the decoder itself. I found a way of doing this from the locomotive's PCB on the N gauge class 50s, but only after I had connected a few with one of the wires soldered to the decoder itself. Fair enough regarding direct wiring, I'd not looked at their NEXT chips not having used them. All the other chips' contact terminals are identified and that in itself is a worry, implying ZIMO don't expect you to have to access the relevant points on their NEXT chips. Also everything you say about it being down to the Manufacturer confirms what I'd been told by an independent source (who should know). This suggests that there will be an issue if the required connections are at the socket end of the chip as surely extra wiring will prevent plugging it into the socket. Then the question becomes "how easy is it to access the correct points on the socket???" this omission appears to be a massive oversight by Dapol as it is the norm to have a stay alive with sound. Not one modellers should have to address post market. So now we have NEXTgate to add to all the others, cab, bunker etc.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2020 10 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said: I've heard previously when the Bachmann E4 came out that the colour Bachmann use is closer to the correct shade and the colour used on B473 was actually wrong. Bachmann claim their shade is correct - but it is manifestly different to that used on the real things (as seen on the Bluebell / NYMR / etc) where as Hornbys take on the colour is pretty much spot on (if you take into account lighting, metal versus plastic etc....) Now I did see some pictures of locos in Olive taken at Winchester in 1938 which looked like the loco was in Bachmanns Green (albut with very light yellow lettering like Hornby) BUT that rather ignores the fact that film / slides from that era do deteriorate with age and cannot be taken to be 100% acurate decades later. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 3 hours ago, BWsTrains said: Fair enough regarding direct wiring, I'd not looked at their NEXT chips not having used them. All the other chips' contact terminals are identified and that in itself is a worry, implying ZIMO don't expect you to have to access the relevant points on their NEXT chips. Also everything you say about it being down to the Manufacturer confirms what I'd been told by an independent source (who should know). This suggests that there will be an issue if the required connections are at the socket end of the chip as surely extra wiring will prevent plugging it into the socket. Then the question becomes "how easy is it to access the correct points on the socket???" this omission appears to be a massive oversight by Dapol as it is the norm to have a stay alive with sound. Not one modellers should have to address post market. So now we have NEXTgate to add to all the others, cab, bunker etc.... One does not solder to the inside of the socket itself. That would not be possible. Rather, one solders to somewhere on the locomotive's PCB with a trace to the right pins on the socket. This needs to be confirmed using a multimeter. It is important to get this right, or else the decoder might be irreversibly damaged. If soldered to well chosen places, there will be no problem with plugging or unplugging the decoder. I should note that I have not actually confirmed that the Dapol A1/A1x models do not have solder pads for stay-alives; I know that the N gauge class 50s do not, and these also may not, but this should be confirmed by somebody with access to a model. It should in principle be straightforward to include these solder pads on the PCB, and not having them is an unfortunate omission, as it then makes fitting a stay-alive charging circuit more difficult than it needs to be, and a stay-alive system will be very useful for an 0-6-0 locomotive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nick C Posted September 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 24, 2020 10 hours ago, phil-b259 said: Bachmann claim their shade is correct - but it is manifestly different to that used on the real things (as seen on the Bluebell / NYMR / etc) where as Hornbys take on the colour is pretty much spot on (if you take into account lighting, metal versus plastic etc....) Now I did see some pictures of locos in Olive taken at Winchester in 1938 which looked like the loco was in Bachmanns Green (albut with very light yellow lettering like Hornby) BUT that rather ignores the fact that film / slides from that era do deteriorate with age and cannot be taken to be 100% acurate decades later. But as has been discussed on here many times, arguing about the exact shade of green (or for that matter red) is pointless, as it varies on so many parameters - where and when it was painted, how long it's been since painting, the light conditions, the distance from the viewer, etc. The likelyhood is that if you took a loco painted at Eastleigh, and one painted at Ashford, on the same day, and parked them side by side, they'd be slightly different shades. Certainly one painted at Ryde would be! I've also seen photos of a three-car set, which would all have been painted at the same time and place, yet all look different due to the angle of the light compared with the camera. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 There's the real 2644, if you blackened Rails' one with some coal dust it'd probably look a very similar colour https://www.flickr.com/photos/swift-valley/4168843093/in/set-72157622769148804 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 25, 2020 21 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said: There's the real 2644, if you blackened Rails' one with some coal dust it'd probably look a very similar colour https://www.flickr.com/photos/swift-valley/4168843093/in/set-72157622769148804 Which contrasts with this or this Be very careful about using old photographs as a reference - cameras and film of the 1930s were very crude compared to todays technology and their ability to record colour variations accurately is notably poorer than many like to think. I quite simply do not believe that all heritage railways in the country have got the shade of Maunsell Green wrong on the basis of old photos - but if people provide paint specifications which highlight this then I will listen. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 Dear All Has anybody already installed in a sound decoder into the Dapol Terrier? As I prefer Zimo, does any body know if an MX658 matches, or if the small MX659 needs to be installed? Btw, some pics showing the chassis after having unmounted the body of SR no. 2644 Dapol SR Terrier no. 2644. As you may see, the space inside is a bit tight, and even the smallest NEXT18 Decoders provide for a height of 4 mm. Thank you. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWsTrains Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 19 hours ago, Guardian said: does any body know if an MX658 matches, When I was interested in this model, many moons ago, I asked Rails this question and AFAIR their answer was that the MX658 was what Dapol were installing. However, I'd not recommend depending just on my memory; ask the question of their Help desk as I did, a simple call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ'S Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 They both will probably be ok. I would go for the 659 as it’s slightly narrower and there is not a lot of clearance above the wheels. The decoder fixing is very loose and it might be a good idea to also fix it with some black tack. You should definitely insulate the speaker terminals as it’s very inclined to fall out and attach itself to the motor. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushpull33 Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 Give Mrsoundguy a ring, he will tell you which decoder you need, a nice helpfull chap. Just fitted one into mine, good sound and its a zimo chip. Its a tight fit but will go in there. As everone says be aware of the speaker becoming detached. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Edwardian Posted September 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2020 Well, this arrived today. I think it's turned out rather well .... Here with its stablemate ... 18 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 On 25/09/2020 at 12:41, phil-b259 said: Which contrasts with this or this Be very careful about using old photographs as a reference - cameras and film of the 1930s were very crude compared to todays technology and their ability to record colour variations accurately is notably poorer than many like to think. I quite simply do not believe that all heritage railways in the country have got the shade of Maunsell Green wrong on the basis of old photos - but if people provide paint specifications which highlight this then I will listen. There is almost certainly no hard and fast rule for what Maunsell green was in Maunsell's time. Reason as follows- 1. paint pigments were made up as required and were generally not stable, so the stuff you bought in last month will have become a different shade by the time this month's arrives. 2. these pigments were mixed together by the bucket- "add two buckets of this to three buckets of that" etc. The size of the fill in a given bucket depended on who was filling it and became smaller towards the end of the shift as said person became tired. Heritage railways try to get the shade correct by taking samples from layers of paint on their locos and stock, and do a fine job. However that will only tell them what colour THAT LOCO was painted on THAT DAY. It doesn't say what the next-but-two loco was painted two days later. Nor does it say what that colour that loco would have been if painted at works Y rather than works X. Factor 3 is that if you apply the same paint to a full sized engine and to a model you will find the model looks different. This is because colour doesn't scale. Factor 4 is that no two people see colours the same. Indeed if you are like me and have had one cataract operation you don't even see they same colour out of your left eye as you do out of your right eye.... So who is right in the "this colour vs that colour" argument for any given livery? Answer- everybody, or nobody depending which eye you use to look at it. Les 3 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Rails Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 We are pleased to announce that the DCC Ready Southern Green "Fishbourne" A1X Stroudley Terrier No.9 has arrived in stock and available to purchase now! This latest arrival follows other recent arrivals which include the SECR Green, BR (ex Isle of Wight), Southern, the WCPR and the GWR version. All other remaining versions are hot on the heels and expected soon. Pre-ordering is highly recommended as some have limited allocations remaining. ----------------------- DCC Fitted / DCC Sound Version UPDATE We know many are eager to get their hands on the DCC fitted and sound fitted versions of our terrier models. We apologise for the delay in getting these models to you. Upon a recent review process we took the decision to reevaluate and slightly improve the installation method. The installation has now restarted and we expect to see some DCC fitted and sound models to arrive in the next couple of weeks. ----------------------- 5 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Oliver Rails said: We are pleased to announce that the DCC Ready Southern Green "Fishbourne" A1X Stroudley Terrier No.9 has arrived in stock and available to purchase now! This latest arrival follows other recent arrivals which include the SECR Green, BR (ex Isle of Wight), Southern, the WCPR and the GWR version. All other remaining versions are hot on the heels and expected soon. Pre-ordering is highly recommended as some have limited allocations remaining. ----------------------- DCC Fitted / DCC Sound Version UPDATE We know many are eager to get their hands on the DCC fitted and sound fitted versions of our terrier models. We apologise for the delay in getting these models to you. Upon a recent review process we took the decision to reevaluate and slightly improve the installation method. The installation has now restarted and we expect to see some DCC fitted and sound models to arrive in the next couple of weeks. ----------------------- I approve of terriers. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Please can someone who has both the Rails SECR livery terrier and a C/P/H class in the same livery post a photo of them side-by-side? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 45 minutes ago, Torn-on-the-platform said: Please can someone who has both the Rails SECR livery terrier and a C/P/H class in the same livery post a photo of them side-by-side? I will do eventually when I get my DCC fitted one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Edwardian Posted October 7, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2020 On 04/10/2020 at 12:40, Torn-on-the-platform said: Please can someone who has both the Rails SECR livery terrier and a C/P/H class in the same livery post a photo of them side-by-side? 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Again, it appears that the Terrier has a bluer tone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Edwardian Posted October 7, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2020 24 minutes ago, truffy said: Again, it appears that the Terrier has a bluer tone. Not the clearest picture, and in artificial light. Same light that made mine look that way before. It suggests to me that certain conditions bring that out, while others blend the different colours on these models. For me the takeaway point is that the greens are all different. Hornby and Hattons are reasonably similar to each other but by no means a match in either colour or finish. The slightly brighter pair are Bachmann and Rails/Dapol. To some extent I suspect the lining affects the perception of the Bachmann green. Each also has a different colour/finish to the lettering, and aside from the Terrier, offer three different treatments/finishes for the brass dome. No two have a similar appearance to the lining, with the Bachmann probably the outlier. Again, like the green, the lining is all supposed to be uniform. The answer, of course, if one wants a uniform stud, is to paint and line them oneself or use the same manufacturer's lining transfers for them all! You'll need to stick to the same paint, possibly from the same tin/batch (!), the same undercoat, the same varnish etc. Colour match at scale is, as has been pointed out, a complex and elusive challenge. Likewise, the lining will always be a compromise as it is impossible to reproduce all its elements at scale. What you hope for is that you find a compromise combination that, when you stand back, gives the correct overall impression. Here we have four manufacturers who have tackled this livery with four discernibly different results. They are, to my eye, all legitimate attempts and I am content with them both individually and together. One can worry too much about such things, IMHO, and short of being a master painter/liner yourself, I think one needs to accept that there will be a range of outcomes and choose the path of sanity! 4 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now