What would today's Standard Classes be?

[Guest theonlydt]

The thread on the outcomes of BR's diesel pilot had me thinking about what a modern day attempt at standardisation would look like on today's railways. I've set out a, frankly ridiculous, scenario below, that leads to the requirement for standardised classes of locomotives.

 

The question for you is - what would they be? What would the classifications be? Do we need a Type 1?

 

Scenario: It's 2021 and Jeremy Corbyn's labour party has just been elected by a landslide. Brexit went ahead and due to the resulting issues of tariffs, regulations, and other non-tariff barriers, the import, purchasing and operation of locomotive (and DMU/DEMU/EMU) stock is more challenging. (You could read this to mean a greater requirement for local content, local fabrication, standardization of parts, or whatever else you want). Major markets for purchase have been affected equally, as a poor trading relationship exists with both the EU and with the United States.

Against this backdrop, as promised, the Labour Government nationalises the railway (again). This includes both freight and passenger, local services and intercity. Crossrail, the lot. The only lines not affected are those owned by TFL, a couple of metros and the Isle of Wight.

 

The new British rail sets out with a large cash influx from the Government to upgrade and standardize rolling stock. The intention is to reduce by half the number of classes in use (perhaps "families" is more accurate, especially for EMUs/DMUs). This is compounded by new environmental regulation on diesels, more specifically a UK version of Directive 96/68/EC (OJ L 59, 27.2.98) on non-road mobile machinery (NRMM Directive). Unlike the EU directive, in the UK this will be enforced that all CURRENT AND NEW locomotives must meet this standard by April 2023. (The EU directive is only for new). Corbyn likes the environment, you see.

 

So, what are the types, and what are your recommendations for the standard classes for British Railways 2.0 to adopt?

If you wish, use the format below:

Shunter:
Type 1 Diesel locomotive:

Type 2 Diesel locomotive:

Type 3 Diesel locomotive:

Type 4 Diesel locomotive:

Type 5 Diesel locomotive:

Type 6 Diesel locomotive:

 

Passenger electric locomotive:

Mixed use electric locomotive:

Freight electric locomotive:

 

Railbus:

Regional/urban/suburban DMU/DEMU/EMU:

Longer distance DMU/DEMU/EMU:

 

High speed diesel intercity (loco/dmu/demu):

High speed electric intercity:

 

Obviously I've not accounted separately for third rail versus 25kV overhead - if you want you can run the assumption that any electric vehicle can be both overhead and 3rd rail.

[brack]

Given the rosy economic and political circumstances you choose I'd look closely at Rhodesia under sanctions in the 1970s. Time to get the strategic steam reserve out and get some people mining coal.

[Junctionmad]

Just order more class 66s , job done

Edited March 4, 2018 by Junctionmad

[LBRJ]

This is far too political to even think about answering in any meaningful way.

[Guest theonlydt]

This is far too political to even think about answering in any meaningful way.

No, it's not.

 

It's a theoretical situation where you have to rethink the ordering en-mass of rolling stock to standardize across the UK.

 

The scenario was, as I said, faintly ridiculous, and was there to add colour.

[russ p]

Problem is this country is so run down I don't think we could build a loco now

Luckily 66s don't meet current emissions regs so no more of those hateful pieces of ####

[Guest theonlydt]

Problem is this country is so run down I don't think we could build a loco now

Luckily 66s don't meet current emissions regs so no more of those hateful pieces of ####

There are locations in the UK manufacturing.

 

One needs to be creative - while importing locos may be more challenging - such a large order may be able to be used as leverage to gain more favourable conditions. 

 

You are correct the 66s do not meet the current emissions regs. My gut would be replacement of the 66s, as they've had a good run, but another option could be to re-engine. Remember, we're looking for standard classes - that could be orders of an existing (that meet regs), design of new, or re-powering existing stock.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Pathetic

[russ p]

66s don't need new engines they need scrapping, from a driver's point of view they are absolutely awful .

Very noisy in the cab ,too hot in Summer and freezing in winter

[TheSignalEngineer]

Given the rosy economic and political circumstances you choose I'd look closely at Rhodesia under sanctions in the 1970s. Time to get the strategic steam reserve out and get some people mining coal.

 First order would be for 100 PET bottle burning Leader Class for general use and clean up some of the rubbish from around the countryside.

Crack expresses would be hauled by 150mph streamlined Ivatt/Stanier Pacifics running on pulverised coal blown into the firebox to burn like a gas.

[Guest theonlydt]

Pathetic

Elaborate.

[frobisher]

No, it's not.

 

It's a theoretical situation where you have to rethink the ordering en-mass of rolling stock to standardize across the UK.

 

The scenario was, as I said, faintly ridiculous, and was there to add colour.

What do you mean, "faintly"..? In your scenario the UK economy is in tatters after BREXIT, YET somehow can afford to renew its entire rail fleet by 2023, but only effectively from UK manufacturers WHICH WE DON'T HAVE.

[jjb1970]

Even if you remove the rather tenuous and unlikely political and economic premise the residual technical question is a bit odd. Why would there be a requirement for new standard type 1,2,3,4 locomotives? There has been nothing preventing anybody developing new smaller locomotives if it was worth their while. And why would the existing fleet suddenly need to be replaced. The huge EMU fleet will hardly be in dire need of replacement and if it was then why should it not be replaced by the same manufacturers who build our trains today? And as has been pointed out, where do people think the government would get the money to order 1000's of trains? Even if it was a good idea, which it isn't.

I'm a europhile and think a certain decision was daft, but this question is typical of the hysterical and ridiculous climate that has made me stop watching the news.

[Vanders]

Just order more class 66s , job done

What, with the 100% tariffs on American made heavy goods and steel thanks to the trade war? I don't think so. No more EMD, GE, Wabtec...anyone know what the latest in Chinese high-speed 16 cylinder traction diesel engines is like?

[PM47079]

From my experience of freight locos. Type 5 spec would be about 4000 hp. Different gearing for intermodal or heavy freight. Good visibility with good side windows for shunting your own train. At least 5500 litres of fuel to be carried. AC traction motors (class 66 motors suffer a high proportion of flash Overs) dynamic brake,good sanding gear,multi working if needed. Co-co bogie design.

I am basing this of course on what I have seen work and weaknesses in other locos. It goes without saying a good cab environment,not one that is like sitting in front of a jackhammer.

[Mad McCann]

Pathetic

Thank you for your enlightened contribution...

[Guest theonlydt]

What do you mean, "faintly"..? In your scenario the UK economy is in tatters after BREXIT, YET somehow can afford to renew its entire rail fleet by 2023, but only effectively from UK manufacturers WHICH WE DON'T HAVE.

There are two sites in the UK manufacturing rolling stock. Bombardier and Hitachi.

 

Additionally you can get creative. As an example, Stadler rail are Swiss - they're not part of the EU, they're in the Europe Free Trade Association with Iceland, Norway and Lichenstein. Theoretically easier to form a trading relationship with a smaller customs union, or making a bi-lateral with a single country. This could include local content requirements, or local manufacturing.

 

The whole Brexit/EU/US thing is just to help tighten up the requirements on standardisation - people seem to have obsessed over this.

[Guest theonlydt]

Even if you remove the rather tenuous and unlikely political and economic premise the residual technical question is a bit odd. Why would there be a requirement for new standard type 1,2,3,4 locomotives? There has been nothing preventing anybody developing new smaller locomotives if it was worth their while. And why would the existing fleet suddenly need to be replaced. The huge EMU fleet will hardly be in dire need of replacement and if it was then why should it not be replaced by the same manufacturers who build our trains today? And as has been pointed out, where do people think the government would get the money to order 1000's of trains? Even if it was a good idea, which it isn't.

I'm a europhile and think a certain decision was daft, but this question is typical of the hysterical and ridiculous climate that has made me stop watching the news.

This is why I specifically asked the question "do we require a standard type 1"? We currently have some in operation (class 20), but if these had to be replaced would they be like-for-like, or would we gravitate towards more powerful locomotives? My thoughts are that shunter, types 1, 2 and 3 are all now defunct and none would be ordered required.

 

The EMU fleet may not need as much replacement/standardization. Remember, it's not saying "All the new Bombardier Aventras need replacing" - it could be that there's an attempt to standardize on three EMU families rather than Electrostar/Desiro/Civity/FLIRT/A-Train/all legacy EMUs. There's nothing to stop you from standardising on an existing family - why would there be? The addition of considerations around trading relationships is there to help tighten up the consideration of which manufacturers you take a risk on - not only do you need to operationally cut down on the number of families because of a standardization mandate, but now you also have an external pressure forcing you to choose.

The EU/Brexit/political thing seems to have really thrown people off.

The question could have been left cleanly at "what would the standard types be if this were to happen today", but I was trying to set some parameters and provoke thought on a wider picture, rather than pushing a political agenda.

Edited March 5, 2018 by theonlydt

[Guest theonlydt]

So, my thoughts on standard classes, and the general backgroud:

 

Attempt to limit to three manufacturers - by doing so, further increasing the sharing of parts, the potential to support local manufacturing, and yet enabling some competition between firms. The three chosen firms are:

- Hitachi due to UK site and recently introduced IEP chosen as a standard class

- Bombardier due to UK site

- Stadler Rail due to 68/88 and Swiss based

 

I was extremely tempted to keep the Class 70 as they're already here, but there are not other GE products, so a tough decision had to be made.

 

Shunter: Not required
Type 1 Diesel locomotive: Not required

Type 2 Diesel locomotive: Not required

Type 3 Diesel locomotive: Not required

Type 4 Diesel locomotive: Required as replacement for 73/9, 37, 20, potentially 47. Possibly not enough of any one class left to re-engine, so go out for new design of lightweight bo-bo, or heavier co-co.

Type 5 Diesel locomotive: Class 68

Type 6 Diesel locomotive: Stadler Euro4000 (to replace Class 70s)

 

Passenger electric locomotive: To be built/designed. 5.5mw, potentially with replaceable gearing/bogies for different versions for passenger/freight.

Mixed use electric locomotive: Class 88

Freight electric locomotive: To be built/designed

 

Railbus: Interim: class 260 (supporting domestic industry)

Raibus: Long-term: to be decided, but using the powertrain/battery/electric technology underpinning and in testing with the 260s.

Regional/urban/suburban DMU/DEMU/EMU: Bombardier Aventra and Stalder Flirt.

Longer distance DMU/DEMU/EMU: Hitachi AT200

 

High speed diesel intercity (loco/dmu/demu): Hitachi IEP

High speed electric intercity: Hitachi IEP

 

Note there's a lot of legacy trains with no direct replacement, especially the Sprinters. Thoughts? Would they be refreshed/renewed/re-engined?

 

Handing over pretty much all long distance services to one manufacturer that's a new entrant to the UK could be a challenge.

 

Cutting Siemens out of the picture is a huge risk.

 

Do we need a type 4? Or do we only need a couple of high-powered diesel classes with a heavy axle loading? My guess, from the creation of the 73/9, and continued use of 20s and 37s, is that there is a small need, but definitely is a need.

[bimble]

Surely it would still be cheaper, if the bizarre political oucome given was to come about, for a BR2.0 to buy the stock that's currently being used, and has an expected lifetime of beyond 2023 (didn't the last lot of 66's arrive only a handful of years ago?), than to scrap and replace everything? Talk about a magic money tree and all that...

[Guest theonlydt]

Surely it would still be cheaper, if the bizarre political oucome given was to come about, for a BR2.0 to buy the stock that's currently being used, and has an expected lifetime of beyond 2023 (didn't the last lot of 66's arrive only a handful of years ago?), than to scrap and replace everything? Talk about a magic money tree and all that...

It would. And then there would be no question of "what would today's standard classes be?".

 

The environmental regs were specifically put in there as most, including the 66s, don't mean those regs. That forces standardisation on a new type.

 

Remember. in the 60s British Rail were looking to settle on a small number of locomotives ordered en-mass, following the pilot scheme. That didn't really work for lots of reasons. Were something similar to happen today - would BR 2.0 stick to a small number of classes, or due to legacy locos, regional preferences, etc etc, would we end up with too many small-batch orders of different and incompatible classes?

[009 micro modeller]

Out of interest why are we excluding the Isle of Wight? And surely London Underground should be nationalised too to avoid a repeat of the whole 'Fares fair' Central line to Ongar idiocy and remove the reason for the Croxley link to be put on hold?

[Guest theonlydt]

Out of interest why are we excluding the Isle of Wight? And surely London Underground should be nationalised too to avoid a repeat of the whole 'Fares fair' Central line to Ongar idiocy and remove the reason for the Croxley link to be put on hold?

Do whatever you like

[bimble]

It would. And then there would be no question of "what would today's standard classes be?".

 

The environmental regs were specifically put in there as most, including the 66s, don't mean those regs. That forces standardisation on a new type.

 

Remember. in the 60s British Rail were looking to settle on a small number of locomotives ordered en-mass, following the pilot scheme. That didn't really work for lots of reasons. Were something similar to happen today - would BR 2.0 stick to a small number of classes, or due to legacy locos, regional preferences, etc etc, would we end up with too many small-batch orders of different and incompatible classes?

 

Well, if we're getting rid of all the current classes, the new engines can be whatever you want, and possibly better suited to a topic such as the 'imaginary locos' thread. Otherwise expanding the newer classes, such as the 68s, 70s and 88s, but everything brought in to replace the removed locomotives will be new enough to be whatever you want. Though you may have to retire some class numbers, Class 19 for your Type 1, Classes 34/39 for your Type 3 and Class 49 for your Type 4 are available.

 

Cup holders, in cab A/C, comfy seats, good traction plus however much power that each requires...

[The Johnster]

Scrap all existing diesel locomotives and dmus for replacement with GM imports that run properly, but specify decent cabs.  2 types of locomotive and 2 types of dmu will be required.  The locos both Co-Cos and standardised for parts, but with a high and low power option and gearing options for 75mph or 60mph freight.  Dmus similarly standardised, but with different door/seating arrangements for local/commuter 90mph geared and long distance 125mp work.

 

This general plan to be repeated for overhead electric traction, again with standardised bodyshells/cabs, but with 110mph local and 160mph capable main line passenger stock.  3rd rail to be abandoned asap and replaced with 25kv overhead.  Some London commuter routes to have loading guage restricions eased with a view to double deck commuter trains; massive investment required for this but only solution to overcrowding on the ex 3rd rail network.  

 

First/Executive/Premium and whatever classes to be abolished.  All stock running at 125mph to have 2x1 seating and legroom consistent with current first class standards and wide aisles for catering to all seats; mains power and usb outlets at all seating bays, bays to align with windows, and wi-fi provided aboard all passenger trains.  90mph stock to have plug doors and full air conditioning, 2x2 seating with legroom consistent with current main line stock.  All vehicles on all trains to have toilets.  

 

New class of 3,000 hp electro-diesel bi-mode Bo-Bo with standard cab, and all motive power to be capable of running in mulitple via automatic couplers.  This to be used as assistance on banks, thunderbird work, heritage stock including head power on steam powered excursions. 

 

Standard cab with standardised controls on all trains and locomotives, designed for driver comfort and ease of operation.  Cab to be integral part of loco or coach body, with accident crumple zone and roll cage type protection for driver.  Standard formation of multiple unit train to be 4 vehicles for 90mph local, 8 for 125mph and +.

 

Standard automatic coupling on all vehicles to include braking and control connections, capable of uncoupling or coupling while trains are in motion under supervision of driver.

 

Cab signalling only throughout.

 

Liveries and branding to be universally applied across the system.  TFL stock to be 75mph capable and capable of working in multiple with BR; classic London Transport red livery to be restored.  Suggest Maunsell early Southern Railway type green for BR locos and multiple units, with Helvetica font branding and information.  Diesel stock to carry yellow line at cantrail and electric to carry red; any bi-mode to carry both.

 

Standard loco and stock profile to aid cleaning.

 

Changes to be fully implemented by 2030.

 

That'll do to be going on with!

Edited March 5, 2018 by The Johnster