RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) Installed a few point motors with a powerful CDU Problem is they Havnt got the power to throw the points over. If you operate them manually they click over. Am I missing something obvious or do you have to remove the spring in Pecos points Cheers Edited March 4, 2018 by russ p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 What point motors? What voltage and what current is available? Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 The CDU is powered by the 15VAC socket ob Hornby elite Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 There appears to be to much flex in the operating rod They are below 12mm ply and 5mm underlay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 There have been some problems recently reported about the rods rotating in the solenoid. Can't find the thread at the moment but will look for it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117054-seep-pm1-problem/?hl=%2Bseep+%2Bproblem I had a couple giving a similar problem when first installed. The rod was slightly bent and loose in the solenoid. It rotated when the solenoid was thrown and the points didn't move. Straightening the bar and a drop of superglue cured it. There were apparently a batch which hadn't been crimped properly, some rods rotated and others snapped off when used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 I've read on other threads about them being centralised and mine appear to be ok The solenoid is clicking over but the blades don't move Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2018 I think you may find you need a little more than 15V AC as the supply. I had a similar problem on an O gauge layout. We cranked up the supply voltage by a few volts and hey presto. You should also try to keep wire runs short and not use thin wire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 I've just tried a 12VAC 8w garden lighting transformer points don't work with CDU but when wired straight to the panel they go over except where two are wired together Think I need a better power supply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2018 I recall that we used something in the region of 20V. Do be mindful of the maximum input voltage that the CDU is designed for otherwise you may find the end of the capacitor(s) heads into orbit (but don't me how I know)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) Seep motors need very careful installation to work well, but are good when that is done. The electrical wiring - I've never found a problem with any wire of used. As I was working in the electronics industry, my favourite was multi-core cable, which I stripped down to the individual colours and used those, and some were quite thin. The actuating rod must be tight in the armature rod, and straight. Superglue will fix loose ones. Positioning of the motor is critical, in 2 ways. It must be at right angles across the track (just like the tiebar on the point). A couple of small holes drilled through the baseboard can help alignment sighting from underneath. Secondly, the armature must be central before fitting. Cut a scrap of plasticard with a slot in it to hold it in position before offering the motor up to the board. Also, the tie bar must be central at the same time. More plasticard offcuts, or bits of coffee stirrers wedged between the blade & stock rail of the point will do this. It goes without saying that before installation, the point must be checked for free movement, as should the motor. A drop of lubrication on the armature shaft doesn't go amiss. This should give a good installation, though I always go one stage further - don't use the built in switch. The contact surface is a tinned pcb, the worst material you can use for switch contacts as it self-contaminates easily. Also using that switch means even more care is needed for alignment. I always use a proper microswitch (cheap as chips on ebay, and mount both the motor and microswitch on a sub base of thick plasticard. I posted a how-to of this a long while ago on here. This sub assembly does make fitting a lot easier too. Stewart Edited March 5, 2018 by stewartingram Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 Just tried an 18vac transformer that works but as it's only 300ma takes a while to charge the capacitors The CDU says max input 15vac or 20vdc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMR Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Interesting post, what SEEPs are we talking about? Gaugemaster PM1? It is first best to check the rods to make sure they are not bent or twisting in the hole, this could mean the SEEPs work but due to the extra movement in the rods they won't throw the point. In terms of the SEEPs I am able to get them to throw with 14v at 800ma, if connecting directly to the SEEP to test, you need to make sure the power supply has enough amperage too, a Seep can draw up to 1 amps. If using a CDU it needs to have relatively high capacity capacitors 35v i.e. http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DCDCP-CDU2. I use Digitrax Systems, so probably not the best comparison but mine are able to operate from a 1-2 meter distance using 16A rated cable. Hope that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMR Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Just tried an 18vac transformer that works but as it's only 300ma takes a while to charge the capacitors The CDU says max input 15vac or 20vdc Just noticed your new post while I was submitting mine, you need a more powerful power supply which will help the CDU charge quicker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 I made one of these for holding a Seep central when installing. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74234-seepeggy/?hl=seepeggy When fitting I screwed the seep onto two short strips of 9mm thick wood. I put a bit of double sided tape on the top of the wood, line up and test then put a screw into each piece of wood from the top about 10mm from the tie bar. If you get these in line at the same distance from the tie bar it is possible to ease them off slightly and move the wood to one side or the other if they need a bit of adjustment but half a millimetre is about all I have ever shifted them.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMR Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 I made one of these for holding a Seep central when installing. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74234-seepeggy/?hl=seepeggy When fitting I screwed the seep onto two short strips of 9mm thick wood. I put a bit of double sided tape on the top of the wood, line up and test then put a screw into each piece of wood from the top about 10mm from the tie bar. If you get these in line at the same distance from the tie bar it is possible to ease them off slightly and move the wood to one side or the other if they need a bit of adjustment but half a millimetre is about all I have ever shifted them.. Great tip, I did the same, probably saw the idea on that post last year! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 A CDU should charge to near the peak value of the sine wave on AC. Discharging a capacitor charged from 15 volts AC should give a kick at just over 20 volts DC. If you put DC on the input of a capacitor you can end up with a bit less DC so would need a 20 to 24 volt DC input to give a similar result. I use a Gaugemaster CDU run from the AC output on a Gaugemaster D and have never had a problem with moving Seeps even when double ending a crossover. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) Am I missing something obvious or do you have to remove the spring in Pecos points Whatever you do, don't remove the spring from the points: it's required to keep the point blade in position once the solenoid has fired - the solenoid doesn't have any way to perform that function (you can just push the solenoid bar back and forth using light finger pressure when it's not powered). Edited March 4, 2018 by ejstubbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 Just tried a 20vdc laptop transformer with 4.5A output works fine. Would this be better as it's AC https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/15V-5A-FOR-TOSHIBA-AC-POWER-SUPPLY-ADAPTER-PA3283U-1ACA/190710429433?epid=1371599422&hash=item2c673a36f9:g:MHwAAMXQM0FRe4Ru Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 I use Digitrax Systems, so probably not the best comparison but mine are able to operate from a 1-2 meter distance using 16A rated cable. My longest cable run to points is about 4.5 metres. On that board each end is fed individually via ribbon cable with 16/0.2mm cores. On those which are less than 2 metres from the panel I can happily feed two ends from the same core. The common return from each board is 2.5mm2 single core (I had about 20 metres of the old colours lying around - great for making plant ties for the garden). Using the Gaugemaster CDU I have each end of the points fed separately on that board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 Could the common return be the unused earth in the flat twin and earth mains cable I have as a bus or would that cause interference on the DCC? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 Just tried a 20vdc laptop transformer with 4.5A output works fine. Would this be better as it's AC https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/15V-5A-FOR-TOSHIBA-AC-POWER-SUPPLY-ADAPTER-PA3283U-1ACA/190710429433?epid=1371599422&hash=item2c673a36f9:g:MHwAAMXQM0FRe4Ru That's AC input, DC output. Gaugemaster recommend 20v if you are using DC (IIRC). The uncontrolled AC output on the Gaugemaster D is 16v AC at 1amp which is perfectly sufficient for their CDU. On OO it should run up to six motors simultaneously if they are properly installed and the track is in good condition. Another advantage of using the CDU is that if one of your switches sticks closed it will not recharge, thus cannot burn out the solenoid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 So the one I've got with 20v is better? Thanks for all the help tonight chaps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 4, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 This is the CDU I bought http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLOCKsignalling-CDU4C-Capacitor-Discharge-Unit-Hornby-Seep-Peco-Points-Motor-CDU/400939134311?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 The CDU is powered by the 15VAC socket ob Hornby elite The auxillary output on the Elite (and the Select too) is dc, not ac. I use the Elite's 15Volt supply to fire Peco surface mounted point motors directly without a CDU but they are connected to Hornby points. I have two sets of crossovers where 2 point motor are fired at the same time and don't have any trouble with the failing to work. I think the Peco points are a bit harder to operate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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