Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, Annie said:

I'm having a rotten job setting up the signalling on Minories as I just plain don't have the right kinds of pre-grouping signals to make a proper job of it.  The two most comprehensive sets are the M&H split post signals set and the N.E.R. set, but while they both are really nice they haven't got what I need.  The N.E.R. set could almost do it, but the signals are too tall and with Minories being down in a trench and crossed by three road bridges it's impossible to sight them properly.

 

Pre-Grouping ground signals ...

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Annie said:

The only set that could work out Ok is the 1930s steel post GWR set which has signals for every occasion you could think of, - including some really unusual ones from Cornwall. 

 

 

Well, yes, Cornwall

 

4 hours ago, Annie said:

BUT I don't want to use them.

 

 

Very wise

 

4 hours ago, Annie said:

 

Anyway I'm tired now so I'm going to make a cup of tea and read a book for a bit before I go to bed.  I'll have another look at it tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

[Annie]

16 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Pre-Grouping ground signals ...

Thanks for the smile and the encouragement this morning James.  And yes a good cup of tea does help to make things look a little better.

I've downloaded the rest of the M&H split post signal set that I didn't have last night so I'll see how I go with it this morning.  The 1970s-80s version of Minories I'm rolling back in time was setup using colour light signals and theatre type direction indicators so weeding all that out and replacing it with older technology has been a bit of a challenge.

I did wonder about using MET style American semaphore signals, but with the small handful that are available I don't know if I would be any better off.

[Tom Burnham]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 I'll repeat here that the arrival at platform 5 is a Great Eastern train.

Quite possibly from Cambridge.  Gwen Raverat in her memoir "Period Piece" mentions that the St Pancras trains were considered much more genteel than those to Liverpool Street.

[Annie]

5 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Quite possibly from Cambridge.  Gwen Raverat in her memoir "Period Piece" mentions that the St Pancras trains were considered much more genteel than those to Liverpool Street.

Fascinating.  Thanks for that Tom. I must admit I've been wondering what a GER train was doing at St Pancras.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Annie said:

Fascinating.  Thanks for that Tom. I must admit I've been wondering what a GER train was doing at St Pancras.

 

Part of the deal with the joint ownership of the Tottenham & Hampstead Junction Railway was the Great Eastern's access to St Pancras as a West End passenger terminus in exchange for Midland access for goods trains to the city and docks over Great Eastern lines. 

 

36 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Quite possibly from Cambridge.  Gwen Raverat in her memoir "Period Piece" mentions that the St Pancras trains were considered much more genteel than those to Liverpool Street.

 

More genteel than Kings Cross, surely? These dons' wives and daughters would have been going to the West End; Liverpool Street would be completely beneath their notice. So the competition with the Great Eastern to St Pancras was the Great Northern via Hitchin.

[Annie]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Part of the deal with the joint ownership of the Tottenham & Hampstead Junction Railway was the Great Eastern's access to St Pancras as a West End passenger terminus in exchange for Midland access for goods trains to the city and docks over Great Eastern lines. 

 

 

More genteel than Kings Cross, surely? These dons' wives and daughters would have been going to the West End; Liverpool Street would be completely beneath their notice. So the competition with the Great Eastern to St Pancras was the Great Northern via Hitchin.

Well that explains that very nicely.  Thanks for that Stephen.

[Compound2632]

Claude Hamilton himself at St Pancras:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 61297.]

 

Locomotives in the engine yard at St Pancras, before 1903, including a T19 and a Tilbury tank:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 61301.]

[Tom Burnham]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

More genteel than Kings Cross, surely? These dons' wives and daughters would have been going to the West End; Liverpool Street would be completely beneath their notice. So the competition with the Great Eastern to St Pancras was the Great Northern via Hitchin.

Certainly before the Beer Trains (Cambridge Buffet Car Expresses) were introduced.

[Metropolitan H]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Claude Hamilton himself at St Pancras:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 61297.]

 

Locomotives in the engine yard at St Pancras, before 1903, including a T19 and a Tilbury tank:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 61301.]

Sorry to be a nuisance, but I think the GER 2-4-0 pictured is a T26 - with 5ft 8inch driving wheels (LNER class E4). The T19s had the much bigger 7ft driving wheels - think "Petrolea" - of which some were rebuilt into the "Humpty-Dumpties" with bigger Belpaire boilers and later rebuilt again into 4-4-0s - to become the LNER class D13 - as photographed by my Father at Heacham in 1938 or 1939(?):

 

Regards

Chris H

[Annie]

4 hours ago, Metropolitan H said:

Sorry to be a nuisance, but I think the GER 2-4-0 pictured is a T26 - with 5ft 8inch driving wheels

How can you be a nuisance when you're talking about GER engines.  I sleepily glanced at that photo Stephen posted and failed to note the size of the T26's driving wheels.  Silly really since Moxbury shed on my Norfolk layout has two of them.

[Annie]

 

This is a New South Wales Government Railways bracketed starter signal.  Back in the day more than a few Australian railways used British signal designs and I'm very tempted to make use of  NSWGR semaphore signals.  They are modelled in quite a worn and weathered condition since being stuck out in the open in Australia is likely to weather anybody.  The question is, - are they too weathered for being down in a London railway trench?

 

4 hours ago, Metropolitan H said:

- as photographed by my Father at Heacham in 1938 or 1939(?):

Chris's very nice photo shows a GER signal at Heacham which certainly hasn't had its paint blistered off it by the sun, - so am I back to square one again?  😬

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Annie
added a picture

[Annie]

Ed Heaps has completed all his Metropolitan Railway Beyer-Peacocks.  Aren't they lovely!

 

 

And there's also a Cambrian Railway version.

 

[magmouse]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Chris's very nice photo shows a GER signal at Heacham which certainly hasn't had its paint blistered off it by the sun, - so am I back to square one again?  😬

Well, all signals go from new shiny paint to being weathered, before it’s new shiny paint again. In an urban location in the days of coal fired domestic heating, as well as coal fired industry and of course locomotives, atmospheric pollution meant the new-shiny didn’t last long - probably even more so when in a trench. So the question, perhaps, is whether you are happy for Australian-sun-beaten to stand for London-smog-dirtied.

 

Nick.

[Annie]

17 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Well, all signals go from new shiny paint to being weathered, before it’s new shiny paint again. In an urban location in the days of coal fired domestic heating, as well as coal fired industry and of course locomotives, atmospheric pollution meant the new-shiny didn’t last long - probably even more so when in a trench. So the question, perhaps, is whether you are happy for Australian-sun-beaten to stand for London-smog-dirtied.

 

Nick.

Well looking at this old photo I've just borrowed from Basilica Fields I think we can agree that signals down in a trench aren't going to be exactly pristine.  I've been staring at signals and changing them around for the past couple of days so I think it might be a good idea to go and do something else instead and stop worrying about it.

 

[Metropolitan H]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

Well, all signals go from new shiny paint to being weathered, before it’s new shiny paint again. In an urban location in the days of coal fired domestic heating, as well as coal fired industry and of course locomotives, atmospheric pollution meant the new-shiny didn’t last long - probably even more so when in a trench. So the question, perhaps, is whether you are happy for Australian-sun-beaten to stand for London-smog-dirtied.

 

Nick.

You also have to think about the chemistry and paint technology - and how they have changed over the years - particularly since circa 1950.

 

Before the 1950s most "white" paint was based on "white lead" - not banned in UK and Europe till 1992. But the "white lead" turns grey then black when exposed to Hydrogen Sulphide in the atmosphere (from burning coal and other fosil fuels) - so white painted carriage roofs and signals don't stay "White" for very long.

 

Since the 1960s, "Brilliant White" paints, mainly based on Titanium Oxide - or Zinc Oxide - pigments have become the norm as they are safer to use and stay white for much longer. So we have all become used to seeing white window frames and wookwork - and signal posts!.

 

The Pre-Grouping world was a colourful place - but white paint went grey very quickly in coal fired cities.

 

Regards

Chris H

 

P.S. - Heacham station is on the east coast of "The Wash", so that signal will get much more attention from the rain off the sea than the coal smoke that will be blown to the east.

 

CH

[Annie]

13 minutes ago, Metropolitan H said:

You also have to think about the chemistry and paint technology - and how they have changed over the years - particularly since circa 1950.

 

Before the 1950s most "white" paint was based on "white lead" - not banned in UK and Europe till 1992. But the "white lead" turns grey then black when exposed to Hydrogen Sulphide in the atmosphere (from burning coal and other fosil fuels) - so white painted carriage roofs and signals don't stay "White" for very long.

 

Since the 1960s, "Brilliant White" paints, mainly based on Titanium Oxide - or Zinc Oxide - pigments have become the norm as they are safer to use and stay white for much longer. So we have all become used to seeing white window frames and wookwork - and signal posts!.

 

The Pre-Grouping world was a colourful place - but white paint went grey very quickly in coal fired cities.

 

Regards

Chris H

Thanks Chris, - so my greyish looking Aussie semaphore signals with black grot in their crevasses should be fine then.

 

16 minutes ago, Metropolitan H said:

P.S. - Heacham station is on the east coast of "The Wash", so that signal will get much more attention from the rain off the sea than the coal smoke that will be blown to the east.

 

Good point.  I should have known that the signal at Heacham would be clean for a good reason.  Most of my railway modelling for the past couple of years has been along an imaginary coastal part of Norfolk so it's been a bit of a step away from what I'm familiar with to start modelling down in London railway trench.

[Annie]

I thought it might be useful to have a look at couple of old pictures of Fenchurch Street Station to give a guide as to how I should proceed with dialing Minories back into the pre-WW1 era.  I know Fenchurch wasn't down in a trench, but with it being one of London's smaller terminal stations it could at least give me an idea of how to build up the interior now that I've got rid of all the BR Blueness.

It looks like I'm going to need lots of gloom........

 

 

 

Signals!  I nearly fainted when I saw this 1910 view of this signal at Fenchurch Street.

http://disused-stations.org.uk/f/fenchurch_street/index4.shtml

 

 

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Signals!  I nearly fainted when I saw this 1910 view of this signal at Fenchurch Street.

http://disused-stations.org.uk/f/fenchurch_street/index4.shtml

 

Its ideal for a captcha:   Click on all the squares containing a signal arm...

 

Looking at the concourse view

 

 

I wondered what all the dust-sheets were for.  Are they perhaps trying to clean the place to let a bit more light in?

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Hroth
Just a bit more...

[Annie]

Late Afternoon Cheer Up Poster:

 

[Annie]

I'm not sure if my humble 3 rail 'O' Gauge version of 'Minories' is worthy of one of Ed Heaps's magnificent Metropolitan 'A' Class engines.

 

[Annie]

Rob Dee's Cambrian screenshot borrowed from N3V's Trainz Forum.

 

[Schooner]

13 hours ago, Annie said:

I'm not sure if my humble 3 rail 'O' Gauge version of 'Minories' is worthy of one of Ed Heaps's magnificent Metropolitan 'A' Class engines.

 

5) Strongly Disagree

[Annie]

6 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

5) Strongly Disagree

Thank you kindly Schooner.  In its largely unchanged original C.J.F format it can be somewhat challenging to operate, but it still remains as one of my favourite layouts.  In order to run Ed Heaps's exquisite engines I had to transfer my 'O' gauge 'Minories' over to TRS22 which was surprisingly easy to do and I had no problems with it.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Annie
Um.........

[Hroth]

6 hours ago, Annie said:

 

 

Obviously the "before" shot.  Before the developers descended upon the unsuspecting hamlets along the route of the Metropolitan, deluging them with row upon row of mock-Tudor semis...

 

[Annie]

I'm not sure if this interesting little building is a good choice for Minories or not, but I do like it.  It's based on a Polish railway building apparently.  Everything is still a WIP mess under the train roof while I try to piece together something that looks remotely plausible from a collection of of misrelated objects.