Hornby new wagons

[Compound2632]

Mobile cloakroom? Evidently anything with three planks is close enough. I was frustrated by the Clee Hill Granite 4-plank wagon, which has very nicely executed livery but alas! a centre door, whereas the prototype was doorless (and steel framed). 

 

What does surprise me is that the 3-plank wagon hasn't been issued in either Midland or LMS grey (as far as I'm aware) given that the body is pretty close, both in dimensions and appearance, to a Midland D305 dropside wagon. They have done one branded E NORTHAMPTON based on a photo of a D305 in Engineers Dept service in Essery's Midland Wagons.

[brushman47544]

Meat, with carcasses hanging from the hooks then covered with a tarpaulin?

[JSpencer]

Hornby-r6858.jpg

 

Hornby prototype.jpg

 

Discuss !!

 

Even if one accepts that Hornby are trying to represent the wagon later in life, the principal features that the model and the prototype have in common are the lettering and number. The fact that the prototype was a wagon with a central drop door, and the model has full drop sides, is apparently immaterial.

 

The odd thing is that the Hornby model bears more than a passing resemblance to the SECR 8 / 10T 3 plank ballast wagon to SR Diagram 1743. Moreover, these ballst wagon were commonly seen in long rakes, so the potential for multiple sales must be far greater than for a non-existent dropside traffic wagon.

 

The thinking of Hornby when it comes to wagons has always been odd, but this latest example defies logic !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

I doubt anyone will purposely tool up an SECR origin wagon unless it made it to BR days. There are several SECR coloured RTR wagons out there now (3 Bachmann, 2 Hornby, 2 Dapol) but all based on one of there normal range of RTR wagons with none being actually a true SECR type. They will sell because few people are motivated to build a kit or at best, a stop gap until something better is done. 

[Steamport Southport]

It's a different market though. It looks like a SECR wagon to most. If they were to tool up a correct wagon for every livery then they will be making hundreds of different wagons and selling a few hundred of each. Totally pointless and a sure fire way to bankruptcy.

 

Anyone who was really bothered would be building their own anyway.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[John Isherwood]

I doubt anyone will purposely tool up an SECR origin wagon unless it made it to BR days. There are several SECR coloured RTR wagons out there now (3 Bachmann, 2 Hornby, 2 Dapol) but all based on one of there normal range of RTR wagons with none being actually a true SECR type. They will sell because few people are motivated to build a kit or at best, a stop gap until something better is done. 

 

I gather that a couple of the ballast wagons survived until 1952.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Dunsignalling]

Aren't all the small Hornby open wagons generic or (at best) based on ancient PO types? 

 

Any railway company liveries applied to them are therefore likely to be inappropriate. 

 

Admittedly, as John points out in Post #76, there were other SECR wagons that their 3-planker better resembles, so it might have been better to decorate it as one of those.   

 

John

Edited May 30, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[John Isherwood]

It's a different market though. It looks like a SECR wagon to most. If they were to tool up a correct wagon for every livery then they will be making hundreds of different wagons and selling a few hundred of each. Totally pointless and a sure fire way to bankruptcy.

 

Anyone who was really bothered would be building their own anyway.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Jason,

 

That argument simply doesn't hold water.

 

No-one's suggesting that Hornby should tool up a correct model for every livery, but it would make sense to make a model correct for at least one livery.

 

A hybrid model is never correct, though it does sell to the less discerning in as many spurious liveries as Hornby apply.

 

A correct model would sell to the more discerning in the correct livery, as well as to the less discerning in as many spurious liveries as Hornby apply.

 

I simply cannot see the reasoning for NOT making a model that is correct for one prototype, and up to three authentic liveries; and then use it the colourful fictional ones.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited May 30, 2018 by cctransuk

[Compound2632]

 or (at best) based on ancient PO types? 

 

You say that like it was a bad thing...

[Dunsignalling]

You say that like it was a bad thing...

No, but it defines any application of a railway company livery as fictitious.

 

My intended emphasis was on "at best based on" rather than "ancient PO wagons".

 

John

Edited May 30, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

No, but it defines any application of a railway company livery as fictitious.

 

Well, not necessarily. I've pointed out the similarity of the 3-plank dropside wagon to the Midland D305 - variety of liveries there: grey MR, grey LMS, bauxite small LMS, red (careful there) ED for a Midland Engineer's Department wagon, S&DJR clone of D305... That's all turning a blind eye to the underframe, of course.

[Buhar]

Hornby have a very good research department and obviously research some elements of their wagons.  I'm entirely with John and Stephen on this, get it right for a prototype, tell us what it is, and then be open about the origins and probable inaccuracies of the various liveries they produce. 

[John Isherwood]

Hornby have a very good research department and obviously research some elements of their wagons.  I'm entirely with John and Stephen on this, get it right for a prototype, tell us what it is, and then be open about the origins and probable inaccuracies of the various liveries they produce. 

 

Regrettably, not that good; the information is there - either they don't know where to look, or they can't be bothered !!

 

It's only a wagon, after all !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited May 31, 2018 by cctransuk

[Invicta]

Mobile cloakroom? Evidently anything with three planks is close enough. I was frustrated by the Clee Hill Granite 4-plank wagon, which has very nicely executed livery but alas! a centre door, whereas the prototype was doorless (and steel framed). 

 

What does surprise me is that the 3-plank wagon hasn't been issued in either Midland or LMS grey (as far as I'm aware) given that the body is pretty close, both in dimensions and appearance, to a Midland D305 dropside wagon. They have done one branded E NORTHAMPTON based on a photo of a D305 in Engineers Dept service in Essery's Midland Wagons.

 

Yes, I'm surprised they've not done a Midland or LMS version as well- I gave a couple the LMS treatment a few years back as a placeholder when I was putting together a batch of Slaters D305s as an ED set.

 

Are the Hornby 3/4/6-planks based on any specific prototype, or are they just generic 19th-century POs? I've got a very vague memory of someone telling me the 3-plank - generic toy chassis apart-  was based on a PO design (Gloucester perhaps?), although as Compound said, above the solebar, there's a definite resemblance to a Midland D305.

[Compound2632]

Yes, I'm surprised they've not done a Midland or LMS version as well- I gave a couple the LMS treatment a few years back as a placeholder when I was putting together a batch of Slaters D305s as an ED set.

 

Are the Hornby 3/4/6-planks based on any specific prototype, or are they just generic 19th-century POs? I've got a very vague memory of someone telling me the 3-plank - generic toy chassis apart-  was based on a PO design (Gloucester perhaps?), although as Compound said, above the solebar, there's a definite resemblance to a Midland D305.

 

The basic dimensions are right for wagons to the RCH 1887 specification - which still allowed for a lot of variation in details of construction. So in that sense, generic. PO 10 ton 6-plank mineral wagons were pretty common - as much so if not more than 7-plank for construction in the 1890s; the lack of external diagonal strapping is typical. The old underframe gave these wagons a distinctly Gloucester-ish look, with the V-hanger being V-shaped all the way, rather than having the legs vertical where they're secured to the solebar, and also the tail ends of the internal diagonal ironwork are visible on the solebar. The new underframe is retrograde in this respect.

[Wickham Green]

The basic dimensions are right for wagons to the RCH 1887 specification - which still allowed for a lot of variation in details of construction. So in that sense, generic. PO 10 ton 6-plank mineral wagons were pretty common - as much so if not more than 7-plank for construction in the 1890s; the lack of external diagonal strapping is typical. The old underframe gave these wagons a distinctly Gloucester-ish look, with the V-hanger being V-shaped all the way, rather than having the legs vertical where they're secured to the solebar, and also the tail ends of the internal diagonal ironwork are visible on the solebar. The new underframe is retrograde in this respect.

As you say, there was a lot of variation so the chances are that if Hornby - or anyone else for that matter - made a six-plank box and threw some strapping washer plates at it then it would be right for some permutation or other ........ even if nobody actually knew which variant they'd created !

[Compound2632]

strapping washer plates 

 

Apologies, I was being sloppy. I do know better. End pillars or end stanchions - what's your view? Does it make any difference if they're wood or iron?

[Wickham Green]

Apologies, I was being sloppy. I do know better. End pillars or end stanchions - what's your view? Does it make any difference if they're wood or iron?

In mineral wagon terms, metal end stanchions/pillars were extremely rare until adopted by the LMS & LNER on their interpretations of the 1923 standard - and never became the norm for 'owners' wagons. ( The other 'main line' Companies followed rather different mineral wagon paths, of course. )

[Compound2632]

In mineral wagon terms, metal end stanchions/pillars were extremely rare until adopted by the LMS & LNER on their interpretations of the 1923 standard - and never became the norm for 'owners' wagons. ( The other 'main line' Companies followed rather different mineral wagon paths, of course. )

 

There was rather a vogue for iron (later steel) frames for PO wagons in the 1890s. Montague's Gloucester book (OPC) has quite a few examples. There are mineral (coal) wagon examples but possibly more for stone traffic in various forms. Always a minority, though. The Great Western had been using iron frames for open goods wagons (and all-iron construction in the well-known diagram V6 Iron Minks) from c. 1887 if not earlier.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Compound2632

[Dunsignalling]

Regrettably, not that good; the information is there - either they don't know where to look, or they can't be bothered !!

 

It's only a wagon, after all !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Hornby is by no means the only, and most definitely not the worst, offender when it comes to applying any old livery to any old wagon.

 

They have been taking wagons much more seriously in recent times that (e.g. Trout, SR cattle wagons, new GWR Toad) but most of the rest are hangovers from earlier times. It is very revealing that some of their better ones are derived from 1970s Airfix tooling, as are some of their worst.

 

In the case of the wagon mentioned, Hornby appear to have fitted new brake gear with a much finer appearance to an existing model. The (non-SECR) prototype might well never have received 4-wheel brakes. It was often not worth the expense of fitting them when set against the limited carrying capacity and life-expectancy PO wagons like these would have had.

 

Yes, it would also probably have retained grease axleboxes until it wore out, probably by the early-1930s and it will thus be more authentic to remove the brakes from one side.

 

All that said, wagons are a particular interest of mine. But for a few honourable exceptions, I generally steer clear of Hornby ones...….

 

There are several kits available from Cambrian that will actually produce models of SECR wagons, but Hornby's aim was to make something that vaguely looks the part from existing resources. Much of their target audience still only view wagons as mobile scenery to hang on the back of their loco collection, and won't know or care.  

 

John

Edited May 31, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

Much of their target audience still only view wagons as mobile scenery to hang on the back of their loco collection, and won't know or care.  

 

This should not discourage us from seeking to raise awareness and understanding.

[Dunsignalling]

This should not discourage us from seeking to raise awareness and understanding.

Agreed, but we shouldn't raise our expectations too high too soon.

 

Hornby have proved their abilities with several excellent all-new wagons in recent years, but much of the old stuff will still be getting churned out in new liveries, some authentic and some not, for years to come. 

 

However good a wagon might be, there are plenty who still balk at paying much over a tenner for one, and Hornby know it.

 

John

Edited May 31, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[57xx]

Aren't all the small Hornby open wagons generic or (at best) based on ancient PO types? 

 

Any railway company liveries applied to them are therefore likely to be inappropriate. 

 

Actually quite the opposite for the Lilleshall 5 plank wagon. That is based on an LMS D1892 open merchandise wagon (complete with sack barrow plank which are no use on mineral wagons) and would be more appropriate in a railway company livery.

 

 

It looks nothing* like the actual wagon it is based on:

 

*apart from having 5 planks, 4 wheels and some buffers...

[Dunsignalling]

Actually quite the opposite for the Lilleshall 5 plank wagon. That is based on an LMS D1892 open merchandise wagon (complete with sack barrow plank which are no use on mineral wagons) and would be more appropriate in a railway company livery.

D1892.jpg

 

 

It looks nothing* like the actual wagon it is based on:

 

*apart from having 5 planks, 4 wheels and some buffers...

That's one of the 1970s Airfix throwbacks, quite a good model in itself, but afflicted by numerous spurious liveries.

 

I'll buy cheap s/h ones, replace the door bangers in metal strip and paint them grey, but they are worth having just for the chassis. 

 

The model under discussion is one of the 3/4/6-plankers most probably based on PO wagons of the 1880s.

 

John

Edited May 31, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

Here's a scenario.

 

Hornby take note of the fact some of their wagons are generic and decide to release a range of "super detailed" pregrouping wagons. They pick a range of wagons that lasted from at least the turn of the century until the 1960s. These include a 3 plank, 5 plank, coke wagon, van, cattle wagon and brake van. It just happens that they are all Midland Railway and are exactly the same diagrams that Slaters made (and are possibly due to re-release).

 

First things most of the modellers will do is accuse them of killing the kit industry. No one will want the kits as the RTR would be vastly superior and about the same price.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

However good a wagon might be, there are plenty who still balk at paying much over a tenner for one, and Hornby know it.

 

John

 

True. You just had to look at the Bargain Hunters thread when Kernow were flogging off wagons for a fiver recently.

 

"I don't model the GWR but I've just bought loads of those cheap shunters trucks" 

 

 

Jason