RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 Oh and you can’t set back either unless you are in shunt mode and if you get wheelslip or slide the system loses your position and you have to, no joke, turn it off and on again It’s the future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Isn't this kind of thing the reason it's being trialled on the Cambrian, rather than just rolled out on the WCML? Not to make light of incidents that require the RAIB, but the point of a trial is to find what works and what doesn't, so the things that don't can be fixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2018 One the of main reasons for some of the early failures of the Ely to Norwich line resignalling was eventually tracked back to fibre cards being pulled at the coms centre in the midlands, without any thought for what was running over them.... A classic case of "previous lessons learnt" being ignored or forgotten. Following the "Colton Incident" in the early 90s a Railway Group Standard was produced (GS/STDG 024, subsequently superseded by GK/RT0105) that laid down strict procedures for testing where Signalling circuits are routed via Telecoms Cables/Transmission systems. An easy trap to fall into, especially these days of large networks and remote control centres. Regards, Ian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Because the sighting committee when out and deemed that a number of crossings (north of Dovey junction) no longer have sufficient sighting time for pedestrians to see a train approach Unfortunaly from a drivers point of view (more specifically a class 97 drivers point of view) these restrictions can add 10-20 mins to a ‘section’, ERTMS is set up so you input what type of train you are, standard 97, air brakes passenger 75mph, air brakes goods 60mph (there are more) which then calculates your braking curve Herein lies the problem, the computer currenly can only assume you have 12 vehicles on, you can’t change that in the cab, so will give you a braking curve for 12 vehicles which as you can imagine is a fair distance, I take a 97 down there on a test train, 97+3 vehicles+97=5 vehicles I approach a 10m long 25kph restriction over a foot crossing , Computer says I have to do 25kph 100 meters before said restriction And will not let me do any more, then I go across the restriction at 25kph BUT once clear the computer is then counting down 7 ‘invisible coaches’ across the restriction, however it then adds another 100m to the rear of the restriction before it opens up to allow me to accelerate, unfortunaly there are a number of these restrictions in a short space between Dovey and towyn so you quite simply just can’t get going! This is the future I've been to a few meetings about the god awful system , I actually asked the question of how this system was better Than coloured lights!Everyone laughed but no one could actually give a definitive answer Once this system is widespread there will be no pleasure whatsoever working on the railway Edited February 21, 2018 by russ p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 So, to sum up, Temporary Speed Restrictions, and presumably also therefore Permanent and Emergency Speed Restrictions (?) no longer require to have any indication on the ground to a Driver, but instead are transmitted direct to the cab from the ETCS. What this then requires is that all such information is input to the system with 100% accuracy, every single time, and that should the system fail there is an immediate indication to both Signallers and Drivers if data has been lost or corrupted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 Isn't this kind of thing the reason it's being trialled on the Cambrian, rather than just rolled out on the WCML? Not to make light of incidents that require the RAIB, but the point of a trial is to find what works and what doesn't, so the things that don't can be fixed. Or indeed, rather than putting it out onto the 'live railway', couldn't system proving and trials be carried out at Old Dalby? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmustu Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Oh and you can’t set back either unless you are in shunt mode and if you get wheelslip or slide the system loses your position and you have to, no joke, turn it off and on again It’s the future ECTS does have a 'Reverse Mode', but it is not likely to be used in the UK. I believe it is enabled through the lötschberg base tunnel, so that in an emergency a train could be quickly reversed out of the tunnel, under full control of the signalling system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 I can reverse in shunt mode but it’s only 40kph max, it’s what I use in possession’s (obviously not at 40kph!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmustu Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 So, to sum up, Temporary Speed Restrictions, and presumably also therefore Permanent and Emergency Speed Restrictions (?) no longer require to have any indication on the ground to a Driver, but instead are transmitted direct to the cab from the ETCS. Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Or indeed, rather than putting it out onto the 'live railway', couldn't system proving and trials be carried out at Old Dalby?Not saying it isn't worth doing (because it clearly is), but that kind of thing only takes you so far. At some point everything has to be trialled on the live system, where new problems are detected. It doesn't matter how much testing you do off line, you're almost certain to find new issues when test conditions are lifted. That's just how it goes when you're doing something new. I'm speaking entirely generally here. The specifics of this incident I wouldn't want to pass any comment on as I know nothing of ETCS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth 73 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Once this system is widespread there will be no pleasure whatsoever working on the railway Hmmm with the demise of PSB's and having the threat of automatic route setting as standard the pleasure has already gone from signalling. Unfortanatly the new breed of signallers just see it as a computer game already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I've been to a few meetings about the god awful system , I actually asked the question of how this system was better Than coloured lights! Everyone laughed but no one could actually give a definitive answer Once this system is widespread there will be no pleasure whatsoever working on the railway Oh, I didn't want to get into this, but I've bitten... Less Maintenance, fewer failures of Lineside equipment, less wasted space as fixed blocks and fixed overlaps are removed, from what I can tell a better situational awareness for the drivers, greater capacity, more services, more passengers, lower operating costs and just as safe. Before anyone says it, this my personal opinion, not one forced upon by anyone... I'm sorry, but the fact is the railway is a transport system to carry goods and people, it is not there to so railway enthusiasts can take pretty pictures of colour lights and sticks of metal. Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 I'm sorry, but the fact is the railway is a transport system to carry goods and people, it is not there to so railway enthusiasts can take pretty pictures of colour lights and sticks of metal. Simon Simon - Russ works on the railway (I've photographed him and his steeds many times) so has good experience from which to comment. Fewer failures is always relative, one power supply failure can take out a huge area as has been demonstrated several times, maybe disruption would be a better comparison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Simon - Russ works on the railway (I've photographed him and his steeds many times) so has good experience from which to comment. Fewer failures is always relative, one power supply failure can take out a huge area as has been demonstrated several times, maybe disruption would be a better comparison. Hi, I realise that Russ is a driver and I have no doubt that drivers views are totally valid, and I'm more willing to say that Russ's are fair, I can see there are problems, but there are factors in play which drivers aren't necessarily aware of. I wasn't pointing out Russ specifically, it was more of a general statement. I can see where you are coming from in terms of amount of failures, but of course power failures aren't as common as lamp failures etc. I suppose a better term would be risk of failure is lower as there are fewer 'working' parts compared to a traditional Lineside set up. Simon Edited February 21, 2018 by St. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 Oh, I didn't want to get into this, but I've bitten... Less Maintenance, fewer failures of Lineside equipment, less wasted space as fixed blocks and fixed overlaps are removed, from what I can tell a better situational awareness for the drivers, greater capacity, more services, more passengers, lower operating costs and just as safe. Before anyone says it, this my personal opinion, not one forced upon by anyone... I'm sorry, but the fact is the railway is a transport system to carry goods and people, it is not there to so railway enthusiasts can take pretty pictures of colour lights and sticks of metal. Simon Ive been on the railway for 35 years and 30 years as a driver so please don't tell me my job I know what I like and I hate this and frankly I don't care if it lowers costs its a completely inflexible system that was obviously designed by someone who has never spoken to a British railwayman! On the Cambrian they had to change the colour of the drivers shirts in 158s because of reflections! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 I don’t want to sound like I’m ganging up on you Simon but have you actually seen ects, ERTMS from the front end on a day to day basis? Ok I’m new to it myself but having worked the Cambrian under RETB and ERTMS I can honestly see no advantage or advancement in the system, if anything it’s a backwards step in so many ways, the biggest advance is the use of gsm-r rather than NRN but beyond that, nope can’t see any advantages at all Dave: it’s all very well russ having experience to comment from, it means dip s**t in this day and age, as he says he’s been to meetings and been laughed at, no doubt by someone who most likely hasn’t actually seen the job from the front end but feels they know best as the ‘computer model’ says something can be done, I’ve seen it with things like signal sighting comittees, try and get a point across and your largely ignored 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) On the Cambrian they had to change the colour of the drivers shirts in 158s because of reflections!Yep, I can’t wear orange pants down there either due to the reflective strips on them And no im not stripped down to my under crackers Russ has described the system very nicely in one word Inflexible Edited February 21, 2018 by big jim 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 I wasn't actually lagged AT people laughed because they also couldn't see any advantage in it .BUT they were all from the operations side of companies and NR not the bean counters that act on government instructions and force unsuitable equipment on the railway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 From the early days of the project, I recall reading that the Cambrian is OK as a shakedown kind of implementation, but it's not a route where you'll actually realise the operational benefits that ETCS can purportedly offer. It's entirely believable that it doesn't offer much extra useful functionality over RETB on a route like the Cambrian. But it might offer extra functionality over MAS on the WCML once it's been proven to be reliable on a "sandbox" system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Ive been on the railway for 35 years and 30 years as a driver so please don't tell me my job I know what I like and I hate this and frankly I don't care if it lowers costs its a completely inflexible system that was obviously designed by someone who has never spoken to a British railwayman! On the Cambrian they had to change the colour of the drivers shirts in 158s because of reflections! I'm not telling you how to do your job what so ever. I haven't used or seen ETCS in use day to day, I'll admit that, and I know there are might be problems with the DMI, but the benefits can't be seen by the driver. We won't see the the full benefits of the system until full Level 2 without signals is installed on a large busy railway, such as Western. The system has been designed, specified and is being continually improved by trained and highly experience signalling engineers. Simon Edited February 21, 2018 by St. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 The concept of in-cab signalling is fine and clearly when properly implemented provides far better situational awareness then external signals , it also allows real time or near real time updates and those updates are communicated directly to the person that matters, the driver. So the failure modes here need to be examined, in particular the lack of status messages to the signallers on the failure of the speed restriction subsystem simply because a system has a fault, doesn't invalidate the system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Simon: How can you say the benefits can’t be seen by the driver? From what I can see from the pointy end of the ‘goods and passenger carrying railway’ you talk about there aren’t any As an idea I needed to do a shunt the other night which involved passing a block marker to set back out of the siding in Machynlleth and I couldn’t as once the route was set out of the sidings and my rear wagon passed the block marker the route would have been’ locked in’ with no way of the signaller cancelling it off, you wouldn’t believe the hassle we had to get that train it of the siding, at 2AM, in the snow, written orders, coupling, uncoupling, setting back and drawing forward all because the train needed 15 ft more room that the system wouldn’t allow. No joke a 10 min shunt took us over an hour This is the future Edited February 21, 2018 by big jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 There are no benefits to the driver or the flexibility of the railway And after what has happened recently on the Cambrian the technology is flawed There is so much stuff across the railway that seems to go against things that BR brought in because BR staff are all stuck in the past . Things such as the yellow gravity catches on drop down panels are no longer required. These were as a result of an accident or incident these actually being because a western battery box cover fell down and destroyed a point machine at west Ealing which caused it train to catastrophically derail. We seem to have entered an era where we know best and sail blindly into the unknown Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Okay, I give up, the experts have won. You know, maybe I should just quit my job, I'm clearly not good enough at it... Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 Chill out Simon, you are probably very good at your job, you certainly don’t listen to or respect the opinion of people on the front line so your certainly management material Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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