Creating a believable freelance pre-Group company

[JimC]

Well, it's not bad ... but you have breached the cardinal rule of heraldry that metals cannot abut metals and tinctures cannot abut tinctures.[snip]

If you had "vi vaporis", however, then we can read "vi" as ablative and "vaporis" can only be genitive, giving us "by the power of steam" which is probably, I think, the meaning you intended to convey is it not?

 

In my defence Latin lessons were nearly 50 years ago... ... and I wasn't much good then. Vi vaporis would do, it wasn't quite what I was aiming at, but I've forgotten what I was aiming at! Mostly I liked having viva in it!

 

The pale gray is supposed to be argent, not azure, I thought it looked more pleasing like that than as white, especially as I wanted a gray heron. Or was that a typo and its Or and Argent side by side I should have avoided?

[whart57]

A bit more on the London and Surrey loco roster.

 

Tying in with the potted history posted a week or so back, the Surrey Railway started out with what they could beg borrow or steal when they had to take over operations when the South Eastern pulled out. Apart from a couple of long boiler goods engines, those early rushed acquisitions - which would by definition be the ones other railways found wanting - have gone. The real story starts with the order of a dozen or so passenger engines from Sharp-Stewart. The sort I have in mind for the 2-4-0 are the Cambrian's "Albion" class.

 

 

In the 1850s though the balance between the free running of a single and the greater adhesion of a coupled engine was not settled, passenger train weights were still light compared to later. So, given most of the Surrey Railway is fairly level, I have the company also buying a number of singles from Sharp-Stewart as well

 

 

The similarity between the two makes this two-parts-of-the-same-order story credible.

 

Train weights did increase though as the century went on and after the Horsham and London extensions were added to the system, the singles were found wanting. Two were therefore rebuilt as well-tanks - as the Weston examples posted earlier suggests was done - for service on the Ash-Aldershot line shared with the LSWR.

 

By 1891 these early Sharpies are past their time, they are only suitable for the lightest stopping trains and locals such as Boxhill-Redhill. Some have already been withdrawn, the rest would be if the L&SR could afford the replacements. Envious eyes are being cast towards the 0-4-4Ts the SER and LSWR are deploying ........

 

However before then a further spurt of purchases were needed when the London services started in 1861 and the Horsham extension opened in 1864. More goods engines were also required when the GWR ended the lease of the Redhill to Guildford section as through goods traffic from GWR to the SER became increasingly important to the companies bottom line. (I'm no expert on Brunel broad gauge but I am assuming that by the mid 1860s Reading GWR was mixed gauge and was easily accessible from the GWRs standard gauge regions)

 

I'll look at the 1860s in my next post

[whart57]

More on the London and Surrey loco roster

 

The L&SR would have had a significant amount of goods traffic owing to the fact it formed a bypass of London for goods from the West and Midlands to South London and Kent. However the amount generated on its own system would be quite small, mainly chalk and limestone from the North Downs quarries and some brick making, and apart from Dorking there was competition at all the major towns served. In 1891 though road competition was minimal and photos of station yards of the period generally show them having a healthy number of wagons in them. So I am working on the basis that the L&SR bought goods locos for the through traffic from GWR to SER and that these dropped down to pick-up goods work as they were superseded by more modern engines.

 

I have a couple of ancient long boiler types lingering from the Surrey Railways desperate acquisitions when the SER pulled out. This drawing is a Stephenson built example, originally built for the North Staffordshire Railway

 

 

Robert Stephenson in particular was a long boiler fan, the theory being that these were more efficient as the boiler tubes were longer so more heat could be transferred. That may have been the case, but the long overhangs made them rough riding and only suitable for slow speed work. So although a lot of long boiler types were built in the 1840s and 1850s most had been scrapped by the 1890s.

 

When the Surrey Railway went through its expansion phase around 1860 they will have needed more modern goods engines, so I have them buying three standard Beyer Peacock offerings

 

 

Unlike a lot of BP offerings these were inside frame, a bit easier to model. These are designated as "coal engines", a term often used to denote older goods engines suitable only for slow mineral traffic.

 

By 1891, most of the mainline work was in the hands of a quintet of standard Sharp-Stewart goods types. Other regular Sharps customers like the Furness had these as well

 

 

Finally, in an earlier post on this thread I cooked up a story - based on a real happening - where the L&SR acquired two James Stirling designed O class types through some deal. Except that the L&SR wanted a domed boiler. An O with a domed boiler is of course an O1, so that L&SR engine would probably have looked a bit like this preserved example

 

 

That's the goods roster then. Looking at the photos and drawings though I realise that only the Stirling goods could be pressed in to passenger service in an emergency. Why? They are the only ones equipped with the necessary equipment for continuous braking. The rest just rely on tender brakes (and the guard's brakes on the brake van) to bring a train to a halt. A very good reason not to exceed trundle speed with your 300 tons of coal and miscellaneous manufacturies.

Edited April 7, 2018 by whart57

[sem34090]

It seems I have got the WSR livery all wrong - a photograph recently emerged depicting one of the terriers (No.3) sat outside the vastly oversized sheds alongside Merton Works:

(Base Image: https://photos.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-SOUTHERN-RAILWAY-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-LONDON-SOUTH-WESTERN-RAILWAY/i-m8cm25d/1/11c959d6/M/IMG_20170301_0077-M.jpg)

[RedGemAlchemist]

It seems I have got the WSR livery all wrong - a photograph recently emerged depicting one of the terriers (No.3) sat outside the vastly oversized sheds alongside Merton Works:

WSR No.3.png

(Base Image: https://photos.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-SOUTHERN-RAILWAY-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-LONDON-SOUTH-WESTERN-RAILWAY/i-m8cm25d/1/11c959d6/M/IMG_20170301_0077-M.jpg)

You also got the KLR livery somewhat incorrect. They haven't fully lined their locomotives since the very beginning. Usually the only blue parts are the boiler bands and on larger locos the edges of the splashers. That's usually it. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[whart57]

Lastly in this saga of London and Surrey loco acquisitions, the passenger engines from 1860-ish onwards

 

The 1860s was in many ways a second "Railway Mania" and the Surrey Railway used the new money flowing into railway investment (much of it from speculators) to build its London and Horsham extensions. That needed new locos and two types of inside frames 2-4-0s were acquired from Neilson and Beyer Peacock. The Neilsons turned out to be not much more powerful than the Old Sharps but the BPs were successful enough for a larger version to be reordered a few years later

 

 

 

 

As with most other railways in Britain, locos had inside cylinders. However there was always the nagging issue that parts that needed almost constant attention were hard to get at. Therefore in 1873 a pair of outside cylinder 2-4-0s were acquired from Robert Stephenson and Co. They were decent enough engines, powerful and capable of hauling the longest trains, but uncomfortable at speed. Beyond my period, in the early 1900s, the prototype on which I am basing these was rebuilt to a 4-4-0 and lasted as such to the 1930s, but in 1891 I have the pair at Horsham shed and rostered for the early morning train to London which was generally heavily loaded with an extra rake of thirds tacked on the back.

 

 

After all this experimentation, with train speeds and weights increasing, not least because carriages were heavier, the L&SR returned to Sharp-Stewart for some rugged 2-4-0s, this time with outside frames. These handled the best trains until the arrival of the 4-4-0s around 1890

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by whart57

[RedGemAlchemist]

Lastly in this saga of London and Surrey loco acquisitions, the passenger engines from 1860-ish onwards

 

The 1860s was in many ways a second "Railway Mania" and the Surrey Railway used the new money flowing into railway investment (much of it from speculators) to build its London and Horsham extensions. That needed new locos and two types of inside frames 2-4-0s were acquired from Neilson and Beyer Peacock. The Neilsons turned out to be not much more powerful than the Old Sharps but the BPs were successful enough for a larger version to be reordered a few years later

 

Neilson_2-4-0.jpg

 

BP_2-4-0.jpg

 

 

As with most other railways in Britain, locos had inside cylinders. However there was always the nagging issue that parts that needed almost constant attention were hard to get at. Therefore in 1873 a pair of outside cylinder 2-4-0s were acquired from Robert Stephenson and Co. They were decent enough engines, powerful and capable of hauling the longest trains, but uncomfortable at speed. Beyond my period, in the early 1900s, the prototype on which I am basing these was rebuilt to a 4-4-0 and lasted as such to the 1930s, but in 1891 I have the pair at Horsham shed and rostered for the early morning train to London which was generally heavily loaded with an extra rake of thirds tacked on the back.

 

Stephenson_2-4-0.jpg

 

After all this experimentation, with train speeds and weights increasing, not least because carriages were heavier, the L&SR returned to Sharp-Stewart for some rugged 2-4-0s, this time with outside frames. These handled the best trains until the arrival of the 4-4-0s around 1890

 

Large Sharp-1.jpg

I like the Stephenson. Very smart. 

[Annie]

What lovely locomotives.  Locomotive designers certainly knew about aesthetics back then.  If I had to pick one it would be the 'Sharpie'. 

[RedGemAlchemist]

What lovely locomotives.  Locomotive designers certainly knew about aesthetics back then. 

I agree wholeheartedly. Admittedly a bit elderly for my own work, but still. 

[whart57]

As part of my armchair project on the London and Surrey Railway I have been drawing out the junction at Boxhill. The previous sketch, several pages back, would result in some fearsome gradients on the connecting loops, 1 in 60 I estimate. I'm not sure Victorian locos would like that from a standing start. So I removed the spur between the London and Reigate lines and put in the spur that actually existed for a while allowing trains to run from the Reading line to Horsham. This spur, incidentally, is on OS maps surveyed between 1870 and 1890 but is removed on the 1913 map.

 

 

The imagined spur allowing trains from London to run towards Dorking and Reading is still problematical though. It has to climb 20-30 feet to reach the Reigate-Reading line. Obviously it can't be on a gradient through the station platforms, the BOT would probably have a minor fit, so the platforms for that line and the Horsham line can't be on the same level unless they are right up by the junction. Then they are a long way from the High Level station. Now today it's still a trek from the Dorking main station to Deepdene but I have made it worse.

 

To me the layout of the station is not very believable. Any thoughts, or better still prototype examples like it.

 

Now one thought is to not have a station at the junction. Dorking Town (today's Dorking West) is only a few minutes away, that could be the passenger exchange point. Now remember I am setting my line in 1891, the idea of easy, convenient changes for passengers had not yet taken hold. If there is a Horsham - Dorking - Guildford service, in competition with the LBSCR's Horsham-Guildford direct line via Cranleigh, that would create opportunities to change trains. I have to remember that commuting to London from this area is still far in the future

 

PS, I say this is an armchair project but somehow some London and Surrey carriage sides have gone through the Silhouette cutter .....................

 

 

[sem34090]

Right...

 

I have a 3D print of a G6 here that I don't have an 0-6-0 chassis for.

 

It is now destined to be a freelance 0-4-2T, so:

 

Which company do I decide I'm going to model?! I'm tempted to go down the LG&WR Route, or the L&SR Route...

[whart57]

I've had a rethink about the London and Surrey junctions near Dorking and decided that a hefty climb up to the Reigate to Dorking line was unlikely to be something Victorian engineers would have done unless they had no choice. Stationing a banking engine at Boxhill would be interesting but not believable. However on my imaginary timescale the line from Leatherhead predated the Horsham line by 3-4 years so initially no-one would have considered a station at this point when Dorking already had a perfectly good station on the original line. Taking away the station gives a longer run at the climb and thus gets the gradient into the realms of the acceptable.

 

In the context of the 1860s too, it would have been perfectly normal for trains from Horsham to London to run to the original Dorking Town station (the modern Dorking West) and then reverse. My thinking is then that direct running between Horsham and Leatherhead without running to Dorking Town would have come in in the late 1870s or early 1880s. At that point a Dorking North station would have opened and shortly after a station on the Reigate line for trains that do run to Dorking Town. These would be the modern Dorking and Deepdene stations

 

 

Compared to the modern situation the only thing that is fictional is the spur connecting Leatherhead to the Guildford direction, the Horsham spur follows the trace of a true historical connection that was taken up before 1913. The track of the fictional spur also starts out through the historical goods yard sidings fan, so even then it is only the bit on the West of London road which is completely imaginary

[whart57]

All you light railway aficionados might like to cast a glance at this months RM. Someone has done a clever kitbash with a Triang Nellie body and a Hornby Terrier chassis and has come up with a quite convincing industrial 0-6-0T.

[RedGemAlchemist]

All you light railway aficionados might like to cast a glance at this months RM. Someone has done a clever kitbash with a Triang Nellie body and a Hornby Terrier chassis and has come up with a quite convincing industrial 0-6-0T.

I know. I keep trying to find it but Tesco seems to have suddenly stopped selling RM for some reason.

[whart57]

Maybe there are more light railway fans in your area than Tesco accounted for   

[whart57]

And this is what a page in Bradshaw might have looked like

 

[whart57]

Way back in post #116 I mocked up a drawing of a local train on the London and Surrey. The trusty Silhouette has done its work and now that drawing has some plastic substance.

 

 

 

I am currently looking into creating a resin cast for the underframes

[Annie]

What a lovely train's worth of coaches.  I liked that mock up drawing you did and to see the drawing become a set of coaches is a real visual delight.

[whart57]

While my RTV is curing to the hardness suitable to use to cast underframes I have been musing over the carriage evolution story on the London and Surrey.

 

The start of my tale is a large order placed with a couple of West Midlands carriage builders in 1852 when the Surrey Railway had to operate its line after the SER gave up the lease. Brown Marshall provided a couple of dozen second and third class carriages to their off the shelf designs. The third class carriages had wooden benches, four to each "compartment"

 

 

Brown Marshall also provided some seconds to a matching design, this time though a more typical seating arrangement was provided. The carriage was open though, not separated into compartments and only two oil lamps were provided

 

 

These carriages were too cramped though to satisfy a higher class of passenger and after a couple of years they were rapidly downgraded to third class

 

By 1891 these third class carriages were only used on the short local runs of Dorking-Redhill and Ash-Aldershot or as reinforcement to the early morning trains, the workmen's trains. The requirement to fit the automatic continuous brake to all passenger stock by the end of 1892 means that these carriages will not be around much longer. At least not in passenger service. Some will live on as lamp carriages, engineering department mess carriages and as vans for eggs and soft fruit.

 

The second class replacement vehicles were a bit longer and higher and with 3'6" wheels and a 10' wheelbase provided a better ride.

 

 

In time most of these would also be downgraded to third class. Some would have a luggage compartment and only three passenger compartments. You must remember that in Victorian times those wealthy enough to travel first class would have servants. If those servants travelled with their employers they would travel second class. Who would then be responsible for the luggage? Quite, so a luggage place close to second class would be logical.

 

These carriages would also pose a problem when it comes to compliance with the Regulation of Railways Act. The solution here though would be to build new six wheel underframes equipped with the automatic brake and cut and shut two old bodies onto it.

 

Larger coaches would come in due course, something for next time

[Annie]

Excellent.  Very informative and nice drawings too.

[Nick_Burman]

I know I'm a bit late in this topic, but...I don't have a firm freelance project, however the idea floats in and out of my mind from time to time. After poring through the internet, I have decided that my putative pre-grouping line would use industrial design locos of the beefier kind, a la PD&SWJR and Cleator & Workington Junction Railway.

 

Cheers NB

Edited May 2, 2018 by Nick_Burman

[whart57]

Had a productive day casting underframes in resin. They need a bit of cleaning up before they are fit to display here

 

Meanwhile a bit more carriage history.

 

The first batch of first class coaches came from another West Midlands firm, Oldbury Carriage and Wagon. I stand to be corrected but I believe all these Birmingham area firms eventually became Metro-Cammell. As was the fashion, these coaches had the curved quarterlights inherited from the stage coach tradition

 

 

After a couple of decades in service thought was given to down grading these first class coaches to second but as compartment size was still more generous than that of newer second class coaches few were downgraded. Instead they were internally classified as non-descript and station masters and guards could label compartments as first or second class depending on demand. As with all the first generation carriages, the need to provide automatic brakes to comply with the Regulation of Railways Act would mean that they were only a few months from withdrawal in 1891.

 

The London and Surrey was extended in 1861-64 and this required new carriage stock. Both first and second class carriages were ordered, the extra thirds required were created by downgrading most of the existing second class vehicles. These new carriages were longer, allowing compartments to be wider and there was a newer design of panelling. The wheelbase was increased to eleven foot as well

 

 

As newer coaches were acquired in the 1870s and 1880s these coaches too dropped down the rankings, the seconds to third and the firsts either to second or were classified as nondescript. All would receive the Westinghouse brake - selected by the L&SR to be compatible with the Brighton as tentative moves towards a merger were already underway - and would stay in service to the end of the century, and in some cases beyond.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Way back in post #116 I mocked up a drawing of a local train on the London and Surrey. The trusty Silhouette has done its work and now that drawing has some plastic substance.

 

20180422_152828.jpg

 

20180422_152908.jpg

 

I am currently looking into creating a resin cast for the underframes

 

 

While my RTV is curing to the hardness suitable to use to cast underframes I have been musing over the carriage evolution story on the London and Surrey.

 

The start of my tale is a large order placed with a couple of West Midlands carriage builders in 1852 when the Surrey Railway had to operate its line after the SER gave up the lease. Brown Marshall provided a couple of dozen second and third class carriages to their off the shelf designs. The third class carriages had wooden benches, four to each "compartment"

 

carriage_evolution_1.png

 

Brown Marshall also provided some seconds to a matching design, this time though a more typical seating arrangement was provided. The carriage was open though, not separated into compartments and only two oil lamps were provided

 

carriage_evolution_2.png

 

These carriages were too cramped though to satisfy a higher class of passenger and after a couple of years they were rapidly downgraded to third class

 

By 1891 these third class carriages were only used on the short local runs of Dorking-Redhill and Ash-Aldershot or as reinforcement to the early morning trains, the workmen's trains. The requirement to fit the automatic continuous brake to all passenger stock by the end of 1892 means that these carriages will not be around much longer. At least not in passenger service. Some will live on as lamp carriages, engineering department mess carriages and as vans for eggs and soft fruit.

 

The second class replacement vehicles were a bit longer and higher and with 3'6" wheels and a 10' wheelbase provided a better ride.

 

carriage_evolution_3.png

 

In time most of these would also be downgraded to third class. Some would have a luggage compartment and only three passenger compartments. You must remember that in Victorian times those wealthy enough to travel first class would have servants. If those servants travelled with their employers they would travel second class. Who would then be responsible for the luggage? Quite, so a luggage place close to second class would be logical.

 

These carriages would also pose a problem when it comes to compliance with the Regulation of Railways Act. The solution here though would be to build new six wheel underframes equipped with the automatic brake and cut and shut two old bodies onto it.

 

Larger coaches would come in due course, something for next time

 

 

Had a productive day casting underframes in resin. They need a bit of cleaning up before they are fit to display here

 

Meanwhile a bit more carriage history.

 

The first batch of first class coaches came from another West Midlands firm, Oldbury Carriage and Wagon. I stand to be corrected but I believe all these Birmingham area firms eventually became Metro-Cammell. As was the fashion, these coaches had the curved quarterlights inherited from the stage coach tradition

 

carriage_evolution_4.png

 

After a couple of decades in service thought was given to down grading these first class coaches to second but as compartment size was still more generous than that of newer second class coaches few were downgraded. Instead they were internally classified as non-descript and station masters and guards could label compartments as first or second class depending on demand. As with all the first generation carriages, the need to provide automatic brakes to comply with the Regulation of Railways Act would mean that they were only a few months from withdrawal in 1891.

 

The London and Surrey was extended in 1861-64 and this required new carriage stock. Both first and second class carriages were ordered, the extra thirds required were created by downgrading most of the existing second class vehicles. These new carriages were longer, allowing compartments to be wider and there was a newer design of panelling. The wheelbase was increased to eleven foot as well

 

carriage_evolution_7.png

 

As newer coaches were acquired in the 1870s and 1880s these coaches too dropped down the rankings, the seconds to third and the firsts either to second or were classified as nondescript. All would receive the Westinghouse brake - selected by the L&SR to be compatible with the Brighton as tentative moves towards a merger were already underway - and would stay in service to the end of the century, and in some cases beyond.

Those are going to be some beautiful looking coaches methinks. Great job mate, keep up the excellent work!

[whart57]

A couple of the carriages are now on their wheels

 

 

 

Not brilliant pictures and I could do with a less rushed display stand, however it shows progress.

 

For reference the track is 3mm Society finescale trackbases with Code 60 rail threaded through them, the wheels are 3mm Society finescale wheels and the W-irons come for the Society too. The track gauge is 14.2mm, the 3mm scale equivalent of EM.

 

The underframes were cast in plastic (not really accurate to talk of resin casting these days) using a soft rubber mould. The Latex and hardener came from Hobbycraft this time (for bigger quantities its better to go to online sellers like Tiranti) and the two part plastic was bought over the internet too. Polycast G27LV.

 

 

Not very clear from these pics but the solebars were given bolt detail and underneath the underframe was given the mounting points for the 3mm Society W irons. These are designed so that one axle is fixed and the other can rotate laterally so as to give the vehicle some basic compensation

 

The other two will get their wheels over the next couple of days and then it's decision time on the colour scheme. I can of course paint them any colour I like but I suspect day-glo orange and silver won't look very authentic. I want to go for a two-tone livery, light and dark, and the colours have to be believable in terms of pigments available to the mid-Victorians

 

The best I have found for the light colour for the upper panels is an old Humbrol military modelling colour called "Unbleached Wool". Trouble is that they don't sell it anymore. The other available colours are really too dark or too yellow. Mixing Humbrol Cream (103) with white might do.

 

For the dark colour I am inclined to go for Humbrol Dark Green (149). I tried a swatch of Oxford Blue (104) after having read that the Prussian Blue pigment it is based on was developed in the early 1800s but I'm not convinced it's sufficiently 19th century generic.

[RedGemAlchemist]

A couple of the carriages are now on their wheels

 

20180507_110013.jpg

 

20180507_110047.jpg

 

Not brilliant pictures and I could do with a less rushed display stand, however it shows progress.

 

For reference the track is 3mm Society finescale trackbases with Code 60 rail threaded through them, the wheels are 3mm Society finescale wheels and the W-irons come for the Society too. The track gauge is 14.2mm, the 3mm scale equivalent of EM.

 

The underframes were cast in plastic (not really accurate to talk of resin casting these days) using a soft rubber mould. The Latex and hardener came from Hobbycraft this time (for bigger quantities its better to go to online sellers like Tiranti) and the two part plastic was bought over the internet too. Polycast G27LV.

 

20180507_110209.jpg

 

Not very clear from these pics but the solebars were given bolt detail and underneath the underframe was given the mounting points for the 3mm Society W irons. These are designed so that one axle is fixed and the other can rotate laterally so as to give the vehicle some basic compensation

 

The other two will get their wheels over the next couple of days and then it's decision time on the colour scheme. I can of course paint them any colour I like but I suspect day-glo orange and silver won't look very authentic. I want to go for a two-tone livery, light and dark, and the colours have to be believable in terms of pigments available to the mid-Victorians

 

The best I have found for the light colour for the upper panels is an old Humbrol military modelling colour called "Unbleached Wool". Trouble is that they don't sell it anymore. The other available colours are really too dark or too yellow. Mixing Humbrol Cream (103) with white might do.

 

For the dark colour I am inclined to go for Humbrol Dark Green (149). I tried a swatch of Oxford Blue (104) after having read that the Prussian Blue pigment it is based on was developed in the early 1800s but I'm not convinced it's sufficiently 19th century generic.

Lovely little coaches. A bit awkward looking but very nice nonetheless.