RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2018 Powered the station area of my layout up tonight only to find the short circuit light come on I disconnected the controller and put a decent quality multimeter across the rails which confirmed it There is no stock on it , I found a rouge electro frog point which I replaced but its still there I've checked and double checked the wiring to no avail I think im going to have to divide it up into sub power districts Has anyone had any problems with Peco insulfrog points causing shorts Cheers Russ Double post sorry ,admin can you remove it please Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick G Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I had similar a couple of weeks back after I had wired my fiddle yard. I had put a metal rail joiner instead of a isolating joiner in the 'V' of one of the points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 18, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2018 Its all insulfrog 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGunslinger Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Insulfrogs really shouldn't cause shorts, and if your wiring is unchanged I doubt it's spontaneously grown a short. I'd be looking elsewhere for a problem. Look for errant screwdrivers, loose track etc that may be shorting the rails since I'm an idiot and don't notice these things sometimes, so I figure other people might do it too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick G Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Its all insulfrog Ah right. Dropper soldered the wrong way round on the BUS? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 18, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2018 This is the first time I've powered it up Its visible on my layout thread. Only the middle board was powered up and the the track on the triangle which is isolated had no short Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 18, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2018 Ah right. Dropper soldered the wrong way round on the BUS? I've looked and looked again but can't find one 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick G Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I've looked and looked again but can't find one Sleep on it and tomorrow you may find it straight away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 18, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2018 Sleep on it and tomorrow you may find it straight away. That would be nice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pctrainman Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Ah right. Dropper soldered the wrong way round on the BUS? I've done this one , and not once but twice . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 18, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2018 I've colour coded the wiring and can't find either a wire on the wrong rail or a red to the black or the other way round under the board Think I'll have start removing fishplates and cutting the transverse cables to the bus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted February 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2018 Sleep on it and tomorrow you may find it straight away. I did that once when an unexplained short occurred one hot afternoon in the loft. The following day, when it was much cooler, the short had gone away. Turned out it was an insulating gap I had cut in the rails that had closed up in the heat. Made a note to myself to always use proper IRJs in the future. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 If you are going to remove fishplates & cut droppers try to divide the layout in half by removing fishplates & cutting the bus. This should divide the layout into 2 power districts, test each To find which half the short is in( unless you are unlucky & have 2 shorts) Have a visual look for the short , if you can't find it then split that half into 2 & check each of them Repeat until the fault is found When the fault is found & fixed it would be advisable to reconnect in sections & check for faults as you go John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJGraphics Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Sorry, I know this is like "shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted" but, having helped friends to sort out wiring issues on their DCC layouts, I have learned the hard way to test with a multimeter as each piece of wiring is added, rather than after a whole board or and entire layout has been wired. With one problem, it took almost an entire day of unsoldering joints to trace a short . . . and almost inevitably it was in one of the last pieces of track to be isolated where the fault was finally found. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Assuming that you have the normal arrangement of droppers attached to two bus wires then what I would do is split the bus wires to isolate the problem before you start cutting droppers and removing railjoiners. Get some choc drop terminal blocks (rated at 10A or more) and starting a few feet from the point furthest from the command station split the bus wires. Check if the short is still there. If it isn't then the fault is in the section beyond the cut. If it is still there then use a two "chunk" choc drop connector to rejoin the cut and move a few feet closer to the command station and repeat. Eventually you will find the section where the short is and can do a detailed examination of the droppers and rail breaks in that section. Having the choc drop connectors means you can isolate sections in future if you need to. Edited February 19, 2018 by DY444 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Depending on the sensitivity and speed/stability of your meter.... You may be able to get close to the short by using the ohms range rather than the continuity/beep setting .... By looking for the lowest R value found ... This does require your probes to make good, reliable, contact with the rail head... But may reduce the number of fishplates or connection you need to break. Edited February 19, 2018 by Phil S 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 19, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2018 I'm using the continuity setting on the meter It's actually got worse I've divided the layout and I've got shorts on both halfs !! I've checked the unwired section of the layout and that's fine Can't find any wiring errors anywhere must be defective points Any one got clockwork motors for sale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I notice from your track plan that you have a triangle. How are you handling the polarity change on that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 19, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2018 I've isolated it as its going to have reverse loop modules on it. I've also temporarily removed the junction on the right to make sure it wasn't at fault Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 If you're 100% certain that you've checked that all your droppers are connected to the correct bus wire and that there isn't an electrofrog point in there somewhere which you haven't taken account of then I'm stumped. As it seems to be a widespread fault then the only further thing I can offer is that tends to shift the odds slightly towards it being a systemic issue, ie you've introduced the same wiring error in more than one place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 19, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2018 That's what I'm thinking but can I hell as find it, I've colour coded the wires red for right rail blach for left and can see and deviation from it I all so removed the scissors crossing and checked that which is fine All the points have the plastic insulation on the frog I wonder if one of the new ones has a fault in the V causing a short Basically I think I'm going to have to remove every point Odd thing is the other side of the layout is fine and that has points from the same batch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Concentrate on one of the faulty sections until you find the cause. Repeatedly halving the circuit is the fastest way to locate the fault. Once you've found the cause in one section there's a good chance that the same problem exists in other sections. PS there have been a few faulty points reported lately so it may be quicker concentrate on the points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 19, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2018 Do these faulty points cause shorts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Hi there. Firstly I would double check that there is no short between the railA and railB terminals on your command station with said wires disconnected. Second I would check anything that is connected to the track circuit. I assume the points are DCC operated? If so check the motors and the latching. Lastly I would check the point blades to ensure that they all move far enough to disengage the little metal shelves on each side. It is not impossible for the point blades not to move far enough particularly if the over centre springs are still installed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Do these faulty points cause shorts? Yes they do according to the cases I have read about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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