Time to bring back design clever?

[Dunsignalling]

On the other hand they might perceive their market to be people with a higher disposable income and not be interested in a wider market.

There is a lot to be said for selling to a limited niche market at a good mark up.

The model railway business does not seem at the moment to have decided on what corner of the market offers the best possible returns in the middle to long term.

If it is to be a sustainable business then they need to find the sweet spot before the likes of me are pushing up daisies. 

I do not see a return to the production numbers that were at one time the norm happening.

Bernard

It appears to me that other participants in UK-outline r-t-r are already fairly clear as to what side their bread is buttered and where any jam is likely to come from.

 

Hornby seems to be the only one that can't make it's mind up. One reason is that has yet to adjust the way it operates to reflect the diminution of its former market dominance. Its structure suggests a much larger business than it has become. 

 

A question that must be asked is: Can Hornby really be all things to all men in 4mm r-t-r model railways or do decisions made in relation to each of its ranges compromise those made for the other? That's certainly an inference that might reasonably be drawn from the Design Clever saga.

 

Is Hornby trying to satisfy everyone but, in practice, pleasing nobody? It is quite possible that no "sweet spot" exists.

 

If the latter turns out to be the case, maybe it's time for the premium and budget sides to be properly restructured as separate companies.  

 

John

Edited March 3, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

It seems to be the Hornby Railroad models like Helmington Hall, Flying Scotsman and Tornado that end up as Hattons bargains rather than models in the mainstream Hornby range like Duchess of Atholl and Nederland Line and the mainstream models fetch more on the second hand market. The Railroad models cost a lot of money and perhaps people are prepared to pay more for a mainstream model.

 

I bought a Raiload Tornado and I wish I had paid the extra for a mainstream one as a lot of people criticised its appearance.

 

I started off with Hornby clockwork. My 0-4-0 did not look anything like a real engine but the paint finish was beautiful with full lining. It had separate handrails and lamp brackets to fit model lamps on and the finish of the Hornby-Dublo locomotives was also good. It is not until comparatively recently that Hornby locomotives have had full lining and separate handrails and to me a locomotive does not look right without these.

 

Not all locomotives were lined. I bought a Hornby Bittern and a Hornby Golden Shuttle. It is not easy to tell the difference from a normal viewing distance but Bittern seems to have held its value more than Golden Shuttle.

[John Isherwood]

I think what I'm seeing, rightly or wrongly, is a market that won't last for ever, and my concern is that they are over-charging now in preparation for a fall, but they have already got the tooling there that can produce much cheaper models of the same quality for the time when that market runs dry.

 

My worry is that too many people, like myself, will have long since stopped buying RTR, or will just be put off the hobby entirely by the current, uncalled for, high prices that these companies will fold. Why should I buy RTR when a simple 3D Printed kit for a cheap, readily available chassis is not only cheaper, but suits my needs better and actually gives me more satisfaction through having to detail and paint it myself?

 

Today's mainstream market, wisely or unwisely, demands an ever-changing offering of ultra-detailed models, specific to individual prototypes at a specified dateline. At the moment, sufficient customers exist who will pay the requisite price to cover the manufacturing costs; the organisational expenses; and to provide a sufficient return for shareholders. Whether this situation will continue is anyone's guess - if we could predict future financial conditions the stock market would be redundant.

 

The current situation definitely discriminates against those with severely limited disposable income - but when did it not do so? Brand new, off-the-shelf models have always been the privilege of the better-off - like it or not. Back in the 1950s and 60s, Hornby Dublo was the preserve of the upper middle classes; Tri-ang was the choice of the lower middle classes; and Playcraft (from Woolworths) was bought by the average workman, as a special treat for favoured offspring at Christmas. Those who were short of cash but capable with their hands bought cast-offs from market stalls or even scavenged from rubbish, and refurbished / cannibalised usable models from their spoils.

 

Nothing has changed, really - including prices relative to incomes. Well - that's not really true! Instant communications mean that we are all aware of how the most expensive RTR looks and performs - not just those who could spare the cost of a Hornby Dublo or Tri-ang catalogue. Nowadays, we are acutely aware of the mismatch between what we can afford and what we might aspire to, given sufficient funds.

 

The upside of modern communication technology is that we have Ebay and the like - those of limited means are not constrained by what the local junk shop or market stall has on offer; it may take a while, but bargains are to be had.

 

If we can accept that what we desire and what we can have are two different worlds - difficult in today's society - there are a multitude of opportunities to find satisfaction in modelling. The most important lesson to learn, though, is that there is immensely more satisfaction in learning to acquire modelling skills than bemoaning our inability to buy the off-the-shelf RTR wonders that are continuously paraded before our eyes.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[adb968008]

The second hand market continues to supply the less affluent end of the market.

 

There is no shortage of it, one can buy a brand new jubilee, such as 45575 Madras for £150 but pay half that for a second hand one from the same tooling such as 45611 Hong Kong, indeed I recently acquired a 45611 for £50 to provide a donor chassis.

 

If £75 is a budget one can buy a similarly detailed Jubilee such as Trafalgar for £50, or if this is still a constraint a Mainline one for £35.. even then you still have options on poor condition ones etc at even less.

 

What recent prices has done is stopped the immediate 50% devaluations we used to see on new sold stock, and subsequent further devaluations down the chain which lead to people “hanging on” to old stuff as it wasn’t affordable to take the sales hit, now there’s a healthy supply across all price bands.

 

The important thing now is not to over cook the goose.

Edited March 3, 2018 by adb968008

[sem34090]

I think I suffer from the possibly unique position of being a really rather young modeller, attempting to model pre-1923. I get the impression that many on here think that young modellers want any one/combination of the following:

 

A gaming connection.

Something that is basic and goes fast.

No attention to detail required at all

Something modern that they can see and relate to.

Heritage Railways.

 

From our club, I can genuinely say this is not really true, the demographic for young modellers being:

 

2 Pre-Grouping* 

1 Early Grouping* 

5 Grouping 1938-1948 

3 BR Steam 1948 - 1968

1 BR Diesel 1968 - 1994 

2 'Anything Goes'/Preservation(?)

 

What I think can be seen in the above is a liking for steam, and colourful steam. I think the later grouping wins here because of the amount of second-hand RTR available for this period, in particular Mainline.

 

I think people need to rethink their views of the younger end of the hobby. There's a lot more variety there, and a lot more of us striving for quite high accuracy in modelling, than some acknowledge.

[farren]

I think Hornby's past glory days are a hindrance. In the 70's 80's if the kids wanted a train mum and dad bought a red box. And the kids were happy. If you were a adult modeler, Hornby was still the place to go and detail it yourself. Where today the blue box team and other new kids on the block have decided what buyers market to aim for. Where Hornby or more importantly the hobby will lose out if Hornby decide to go down the high detailed or family friendly market once and for all. So it seems a lose lose for the hobby if they decide. Where Hornby is in a lose lose lose what ever they do. They are losing money now. The will then lose if a choice is made.

[Caledonian]

I think I suffer from the possibly unique position of being a really rather young modeller, attempting to model pre-1923. I get the impression that many on here think that young modellers want any one/combination of the following:

 

A gaming connection.

Something that is basic and goes fast.

No attention to detail required at all

Something modern that they can see and relate to.

Heritage Railways.

 

From our club, I can genuinely say this is not really true, the demographic for young modellers being:

 

2 Pre-Grouping* 

1 Early Grouping* 

5 Grouping 1938-1948 

3 BR Steam 1948 - 1968

1 BR Diesel 1968 - 1994 

2 'Anything Goes'/Preservation(?)

 

What I think can be seen in the above is a liking for steam, and colourful steam. I think the later grouping wins here because of the amount of second-hand RTR available for this period, in particular Mainline.

 

I think people need to rethink their views of the younger end of the hobby. There's a lot more variety there, and a lot more of us striving for quite high accuracy in modelling, than some acknowledge.

 

I don't think that you're in a unique position at all, because there's a fundamental demographic at work here. There are, obviously, still a sizeable number of elderly modellers proclaiming that they are recreating the scenes of their youth. Given different circumstances I might be among them but despite being born next door to Kittybrewster shed I have no memory of original steam apart from a dark green Peckett in the Culter Paper Mill yard.

 

For me therefore steam is an exercise in historical modelling and shorn of nostalgia the pre-nationalisation eras are simply far more attractive

Edited March 4, 2018 by Caledonian

[dibber25]

"Shorn of nostalgia, the pre-nationalisation eras are simply far more attractive." That's a powerful phrase.

So, we have potentially three main market segments at work here:

Those who have the 'baggage' of nostalgia for what they remember - that splits into two, those who remember the 1950s/60s BR steam/diesel era and the glory days of railway enthusiasm. They have long been the primary market for the RTR manufacturers, but they are inevitably now in declining numbers, which must affect the size of runs of locos in those liveries.

Those who grew up in the Corporate Image era and whose nostalgia is for all things Rail blue. This was always a much smaller market but these modellers are now into 'middle-age' and probably have sufficient income to indulge their hobby to a greater extent. Smaller numbers but higher spend. Hence the market for short-run, high-end models such as SLW, 'O' gauge ready-to-run diesels etc.

Those who either post-date Rail blue or have grown up without any specific railway interest or nostalgia - perhaps because their railway experience has been limited to the daily commute. The market of the future is going to have to come from this group and many and varied will be their reasons for taking up the hobby and their taste in what they model. Within that I can see Big Four and pre-Grouping liveries being an attraction, but also such things as the cross-over with military interests (rail-mounted gun, WD narrow gauge) and the array of modern liveries on diesels among minor operators, freight companies and so on. The latter is what drives modelling interest in the USA, for instance, with modellers even inventing their own liveries. Shorter runs will be the order of the day, but the manufacturers may also have to retreat from their "when Hell freezes over" approach to supplying fully-assembled but undecorated models, thus providing opportunities for decal and paint specialists. (CJL)

[Jeff Smith]

Bachmann On30 locos and other rolling stock has usually been available undecorated.

[jjb1970]

At the risk of sounding cynical, whether or not businesses think an idea makes depends on whether they want to do it. If a business doesn't want to do something there are always plenty of reasons to rationalise that decision and to make it all sound like you'd be mad to do it. If a business decides it's worth a punt all those reasons can disappear overnight.

[Dunsignalling]

As time passes, the hobby is inexorably being "shorn of nostalgia", for both the railways of ones own youth and rose-tinted imaginings of earlier times inculcated by older mentors.

 

The pertinent questions are surely,

 

1. What will the hobby look like when the nostalgia factor is no longer at work?"

 

2. With the train set ceasing to be a childhood rite of passage, can we expect the established pattern of "departees" being replaced up by "middle-aged returnees" to continue?

 

3. Minus the nostalgia factor and the train set factor, can we reasonably expect the level of recruitment into the hobby to do anything but shrink drastically?

 

4. What effect will the Thomas factor and the "visiting-heritage-railways-as-a-kid" factor have in the future, and will it be enough?

 

5. Why don't we all just get on with enjoying the hobby as it is and stop worrying about future scenarios that, in the fullness of time, won't concern any of us?

 

John

Edited March 5, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[locoholic]

As time passes, the hobby is inexorably being "shorn of nostalgia", for both the railways of ones own youth and rose-tinted imaginings of earlier times inculcated by older mentors.

 

I don't think this is true at all.

 

I grew up in South East Essex in the 1970s - my memories are of endless streams of EMUs in plain BR blue. The DMUs on the Southminster and Emerson Park branches were quite exotic, as you could see out through the front.

 

I despised the EMUs at the time, but now experience distinct pangs of nostalgia at the memories of the sound of the air pumps, the alarmingly rough ride exaggerated by the sprung seating, and the solid clunk of the slam doors. I would pay good money for RTR models of those units - driven by pure nostalgia.

 

I really don't see how anyone can claim that nostalgia is a thing of the past when it is so patently an integral part of human nature.

[Dunsignalling]

I don't think this is true at all.

 

I grew up in South East Essex in the 1970s - my memories are of endless streams of EMUs in plain BR blue. The DMUs on the Southminster and Emerson Park branches were quite exotic, as you could see out through the front.

 

I despised the EMUs at the time, but now experience distinct pangs of nostalgia at the memories of the sound of the air pumps, the alarmingly rough ride exaggerated by the sprung seating, and the solid clunk of the slam doors. I would pay good money for RTR models of those units - driven by pure nostalgia.

 

I really don't see how anyone can claim that nostalgia is a thing of the past when it is so patently an integral part of human nature.

True, but when you and those of your contemporaries who caught the same bug (see what I did there) go, the nostalgia for "your" era goes with you. 

 

You are in the same boat as me, just (for now) less well-served by the r-t-r trade.

 

Nostalgia is part of human nature, but the aspect of life to which one attaches it varies from person to person. Music that was popular in ones teens is probably the nearest it ever gets to being universal as it tends to get under the skin even if you think you aren't interested in it.

 

Looking around these days, I see far fewer younger people taking any interest in railways than in the past. If they aren't accumulating (positive) memories of railways now, it's unlikely that their personal feelings of nostalgia will be manifested in railway modelling (of any era) later in life. Their "bag" will be something else altogether, maybe collecting the early 21st century products of Apple.....

 

As someone (one Peter de Vries, supposedly, but it sounds more like Groucho Marx to me  ) memorably said, "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be".

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

Getting on a South Western Railway electric train at Waterloo at 17:00 and not being able to get off at Bournemouth until 08:00 the following day because of a few inches of snow is not likely to result in any positive feelings towards trains.

 

There seems to be plenty of interest in model railways in Swanage with a new model shop in the High Street and Swanage Station selling Bachmann model railways again and two model railway clubs to choose from.

 

The Railroad range seems to be based on the design clever principle. We have got a Railroad schools class, a 2-10-0 and a Warship on our 00 gauge layout at Godlingston Manor. They all run well and can stand up to fairly rough treatment from some of our visitors.

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

The Railroad range seems to be based on the design clever principle. We have got a Railroad schools class, a 2-10-0 and a Warship on our 00 gauge layout at Godlingston Manor. They all run well and can stand up to fairly rough treatment from some of our visitors

.

 

None of those three have anything to do with Design Clever, they are just made from old tooling.

 

"Design Clever" applies only to the relatively small number of models where Hornby produced Main Range (allegedly) and Railroad versions using one set of tools.

 

So, strictly speaking, even the Crosti 9F isn't Design Clever because it has only ever been marketed as Railroad. 

 

John

Edited March 5, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

 

As time passes, the hobby is inexorably being "shorn of nostalgia", for both the railways of ones own youth and rose-tinted imaginings of earlier times inculcated by older mentors.

 

The pertinent questions are surely,

 

1. What will the hobby look like when the nostalgia factor is no longer at work?"

 

2. With the train set ceasing to be a childhood rite of passage, can we expect the established pattern of "departees" being replaced up by "middle-aged returnees" to continue?

 

3. Minus the nostalgia factor and the train set factor, can we reasonably expect the level of recruitment into the hobby to do anything but shrink drastically?

 

4. What effect will the Thomas factor and the "visiting-heritage-railways-as-a-kid" factor have in the future, and will it be enough?

 

5. Why don't we all just get on with enjoying the hobby as it is and stop worrying about future scenarios that, in the fullness of time, won't concern any of us?

 

John

 

 

I think it all depends where people start from in their introduction to railways.  I would be prepared to lay good money (are there other sorts?) that far more youngsters today will have had their first train ride behind a steam engine than on an EMU of DMU etc - after all none of the passenger TOCs, to my knowledge, run regular Santa Specials or have easter egg hunts in their depots.   Large sections of the population do not come across railways in the everyday sense of using them - possibly a holiday trip or occasional trip out but normally they will go by car, including those who commute by car or 'bus and not by train.

 

It is interesting to look at Ozexpatriate's survey, particularly results coming out in Post 214 et seq (linked below) and it shows there is a disconnect between age when exposed to the prototype and the period actually modelled ('age' being taken on a fairly empirical basis as 10-14)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129998-unscientific-not-guaranteed-to-be-representative-age-versus-modelled-era-poll/page-9

 

There are therefore seemingly more factors at work rather than the idea of what impressed us at a particular age so even the idea of influence from heritage railways might not work and things could well be down to something different such as the sheer attractiveness of models - how else would the increasing number of Pre-Group models sell?  They aren't always there to be seen on heritage railways, although that might play a part, but they also tend to be 'pretty'.

 

Overall I suspect the way the market might change could be far more complex and driven by many different things from those which are generally suggested.  I think that in market which seemingly craves novelty and new products at a continuing rate (at the moment) there will continue to be a demand that will be satisfied by novelty, whatever that novelty might be - from Pre-Grouping locos to massive guns mounted on railway wagons to cute industrial tank engines to whatever ...   the key will of course also be how much money is available to spend in the market and here there might be some fascinating lessons from elsewhere.

 

Various forms of ephemera collecting have declined in popularity over the years for all sorts of reasons - just like the model railway market has changed.  But the interesting things is that newcomers always appear in the collecting hobbies although their entry is very different from the way folk used to enter the hobby as, very commonly, collectors in their childhood.  Now they tend to come in at a far more mature age because they are looking for something different from their everyday life and they have money to spend.  Their entry tends usually to push up top end prices but still leaves lower level prices falling or at least not rising any more.  Model railways in some respects might not be too different adults coming back, adult newcomers dipping their toe in the water, and so on.  True the old mass market will not be there but a rather different sort of market could well be and I bet it won't necessarily be influenced by the trains on the everyday railway they knew, or didn't know, in their formative years but it will be influenced by what they find attractive or in which they develop an interest.

 

Time will tell.

[Dunsignalling]

I think it all depends where people start from in their introduction to railways.  I would be prepared to lay good money (are there other sorts?) that far more youngsters today will have had their first train ride behind a steam engine than on an EMU of DMU etc - after all none of the passenger TOCs, to my knowledge, run regular Santa Specials or have easter egg hunts in their depots.   Large sections of the population do not come across railways in the everyday sense of using them - possibly a holiday trip or occasional trip out but normally they will go by car, including those who commute by car or 'bus and not by train.

 

It is interesting to look at Ozexpatriate's survey, particularly results coming out in Post 214 et seq (linked below) and it shows there is a disconnect between age when exposed to the prototype and the period actually modelled ('age' being taken on a fairly empirical basis as 10-14)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129998-unscientific-not-guaranteed-to-be-representative-age-versus-modelled-era-poll/page-9

 

There are therefore seemingly more factors at work rather than the idea of what impressed us at a particular age so even the idea of influence from heritage railways might not work and things could well be down to something different such as the sheer attractiveness of models - how else would the increasing number of Pre-Group models sell?  They aren't always there to be seen on heritage railways, although that might play a part, but they also tend to be 'pretty'.

 

Overall I suspect the way the market might change could be far more complex and driven by many different things from those which are generally suggested.  I think that in market which seemingly craves novelty and new products at a continuing rate (at the moment) there will continue to be a demand that will be satisfied by novelty, whatever that novelty might be - from Pre-Grouping locos to massive guns mounted on railway wagons to cute industrial tank engines to whatever ...   the key will of course also be how much money is available to spend in the market and here there might be some fascinating lessons from elsewhere.

 

Various forms of ephemera collecting have declined in popularity over the years for all sorts of reasons - just like the model railway market has changed.  But the interesting things is that newcomers always appear in the collecting hobbies although their entry is very different from the way folk used to enter the hobby as, very commonly, collectors in their childhood.  Now they tend to come in at a far more mature age because they are looking for something different from their everyday life and they have money to spend.  Their entry tends usually to push up top end prices but still leaves lower level prices falling or at least not rising any more.  Model railways in some respects might not be too different adults coming back, adult newcomers dipping their toe in the water, and so on.  True the old mass market will not be there but a rather different sort of market could well be and I bet it won't necessarily be influenced by the trains on the everyday railway they knew, or didn't know, in their formative years but it will be influenced by what they find attractive or in which they develop an interest.

 

Time will tell.

It would be interesting to know how many of those who enter the hobby in middle-age have had no significant interest in railways previously. 

 

I somehow doubt it's enough to make any real difference to the future of Hornby or the wider hobby.

 

John

[009 micro modeller]

As a younger modeller (under 21) I would think that the idea of railways no longer being seen as 'cool' is part of the reason why fewer people get into the hobby. However, just as 00 replaced 0 gauge as the popular train set scale, N gauge is now a viable option for those starting out (I've seen a couple of good N gauge layouts built by people new to the hobby), and there are generally more options even within model railways than there once were. Personally, I started out with some Hornby 0-4-0s (secondhand purchases, something made easier by Ebay and also decreasing the market for new stuff) and some of my Dad's old stuff, before deciding to go down the narrow gauge route in 009. I'm glad I did, in retrospect, as I feel that I have developed more skills, spent less money, had more fun and made more distinctive/unusual models due to the relative lack of RTR equipment. I quite enjoy the process of making something though so this will not work for those who want to get a layout running more quickly, but even in 009 there is now more RTR than a few years ago.

[jjb1970]

There is a company using common tooling to serve different price points quite successfully, Scale Trains. For example their SD40-2 in rivet counter and operator versions:

 

https://www.scaletrains.com/pages/ho-emd-sd40-2

 

They also did a museum edition for the UP gas turbine models. So far they appear to have been well received by NA modellers and both series seem to sell out.

[Dunsignalling]

There is a company using common tooling to serve different price points quite successfully, Scale Trains. For example their SD40-2 in rivet counter and operator versions:

 

https://www.scaletrains.com/pages/ho-emd-sd40-2

 

They also did a museum edition for the UP gas turbine models. So far they appear to have been well received by NA modellers and both series seem to sell out.

Love the branding - no messing about there. The budget buyer seems to get a more "generic" SD40-2 with the option of +$27.99 for a detailing kit.

 

I can see they would use a single mechanism but how do they deal with all the holes for fitting the "Rivet Counter" details that must remain unfilled on the "Operator" version?

 

Can they really do it using common body moulds?

 

John

Edited March 5, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[locoholic]

Love the branding - no messing about there. Presumably the budget buyer gets a more generic SD40-2.

 

I can see the point of using a single mechanism but how do they deal with all the holes for fitting the "Rivet Counter" detail bits that must remain unfilled on the "Operator" version.

 

Can they really do it using common body moulds?

 

John

Are the holes for handrails etc part of the mould, or are they drilled?

[Jeff Smith]

I would think drilled with a template fitted over the body.....

[autocoach]

Is not "clever design" yet dead and buried. 

 

I have a pair of Hornby 42xx/52xx sitting in pieces in long ago forgotten storage to attest to it's failure. It was neither clever nor good design.

 

Hopefully my ability to closed down a topic by adding my comments will hold true. I usually will clear a bar as well by merely entering taking an open barstool and ordering a libation.

[locoholic]

Is not "clever design" yet dead and buried. 

 

Judging by the comments on the Hornby Class 800 thread, Design Stupid has taken over...

[jjb1970]

With respect to Scale Trains, I've never had the opportunity to see one of the Operator versions close up, but I've seen the Rivet Counter version close up and it's superbly done. Quite how they manage de-spec'ing the Operator versions I'm not quite sure, but however they do it, it seems to work and be accepted by plenty of their customers.