Time to bring back design clever?

[JSpencer]

I have mixed feelings on the Crosti. It is an expensive railroad (maybe the most expensive) railroad model. Now decoration on this model is simple (plain black!) even by railroad standards.

 

It worked ok, but the pony is bit of let down - being the same one as a 1990's Evening Star albeit with better wheels.

[brack]

I have mixed feelings on the Crosti. It is an expensive railroad (maybe the most expensive) railroad model. Now decoration on this model is simple (plain black!) even by railroad standards.

 

It worked ok, but the pony is bit of let down - being the same one as a 1990's Evening Star albeit with better wheels.

But that sounds right to me - it's a good model, runs well and is generally accurate and more reasonably priced than usual rtr offerings. Plus it allows people to improve/detail it if they so choose - that opportunity to do a little something to lift your model above the mass produced crowd is pretty much gone with current top line rtr production as they're very very good indeed. To me this reduces the opportunity for actual modelling and makes many people collectors.

[Dunsignalling]

I have mixed feelings on the Crosti. It is an expensive railroad (maybe the most expensive) railroad model. Now decoration on this model is simple (plain black!) even by railroad standards.

 

It worked ok, but the pony is bit of let down - being the same one as a 1990's Evening Star albeit with better wheels.

It does fall between two stools, but I suspect that to lie in its origins.

 

Hornby were in the process of providing their original, quite elderly, 9F with a loco drive chassis when the Bachmann model hit the market. Whether or not Hornby had anticipated that, it was clear that, without significant further investment, the Hornby product could not compete other than on price. Expected sales would also be hit by those for whom the virtues of the Bachmann model outweighed the extra expense. 

 

The Crosti represented a logical way to get extra "mileage" out of the loco-drive mechanism without having to contemplate a "head-to-head" duplication that would have benefitted neither company. That it became enmeshed in the Design Clever debacle and, in some ways emblematic of it is, I think, purely coincidental.

 

However, Hornby didn't attempt to market a "full fat" Crosti, indicating a level of clear thinking that was possibly absent where CotN, DoG, and Tornado were concerned. 

 

John

Edited February 28, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Jeff Smith]

But that sounds right to me - it's a good model, runs well and is generally accurate and more reasonably priced than usual rtr offerings. Plus it allows people to improve/detail it if they so choose - that opportunity to do a little something to lift your model above the mass produced crowd is pretty much gone with current top line rtr production as they're very very good indeed. To me this reduces the opportunity for actual modelling and makes many people collectors.

Your last sentence will obviously upset some 'modellers' but I agree. I get no pleasure from RTR with no further work required. For me a basic unadorned unpainted body would suit, even if it means scraping off some moulded-on detail. I understand that Hornby and Bachmann do not sell basic body shells but this could represent another sales outlet!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have mixed feelings on the Crosti. It is an expensive railroad (maybe the most expensive) railroad model. Now decoration on this model is simple (plain black!) even by railroad standards.

 

It worked ok, but the pony is bit of let down - being the same one as a 1990's Evening Star albeit with better wheels.

 I feel it has to be conceded that the pricing will always relate to what the market will bear, rather than having some regular relationship to manufacturing cost. Considering the 9F in general, with the competing Bachmann item being at the expensive end of RTR steam models, Hornby have plenty of 'headroom' from which to extract a healthy profit from this ever popular subject; and given their general difficulties would be mad not to do so.

 

 

...that opportunity to do a little something to lift your model above the mass produced crowd is pretty much gone with current top line rtr production as they're very very good indeed. To me this reduces the opportunity for actual modelling and makes many people collectors.

And the less detailed models were always worked on to improve them? That's a completely false strawman in my view, 

 

Those who want to model will always do so, those happy with it 'out of the box' will leave it untouched. Better RTR is just that, better, but far from perfect. Just feeding in thinned black (or the appropriate interior colour match) paint into the rear gaps around plastic glazing instantly lifts most models, and there's much much more.

[John Isherwood]

 I understand that Hornby and Bachmann do not sell basic body shells but this could represent another sales outlet!

 

Not really, the real modellers will still buy the full spec. complete model, and will still 'hack' it - though to a lesser extent than if it had been a low spec. body shell.

[JSpencer]

Not really, the real modellers will still buy the full spec. complete model, and will still 'hack' it - though to a lesser extent than if it had been a low spec. body shell.

 

I agree. If Birdcages were £20 each, I'd buy a set to make shorter versions of the type. At £30 I would seriously consider it. But not at £50 each.

[brack]

Just to clarify - there's nothing wrong with buying something and running it if it puts a smile on your face, but I suspect there's a lot of people put off building kits or bashing/modifying rtr because it's very pricey and because unless you're very good you're likely not going to be able to match the standard of finish. How does someone get better if they haven't got a hope when they start or can't spend a 3 figure sum to chop it up when it arrives?

I'm not speaking as if I'm better at this either - just I mostly model stuff that there's no kit or rtr model for. I'll happily admit that there's detail and finish on current 4mm rtr that I'd not attempt to match in 7mm narrow gauge stuff.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There's plenty of cheap s/h available with which to practice the carving/modifying/improvement techniques. I think Lima is ideal for this, every Lima item some inexperienced modeller reduces to an unusable wreck very slightly improves the overall standard of 4mm models.

 

Compared to discretionally disposable income - and that's what matters - I am far less concerned now about tackling a purchase at any price, than I was working on a £5 6s 4d kit in 1970 which meant living on unbranded bulk buy baked beans on toast for a fortnight to make the budget stretch to it!

[9402 Fredrick]

Also people who haven't started railway modelling till it was too late to get skilled at it, myself being one of those people, would be okay with what is available, but will resort to modifiying rtr stock if it's viable or have someone help with that.

[Jeff Smith]

Not really, the real modellers will still buy the full spec. complete model, and will still 'hack' it - though to a lesser extent than if it had been a low spec. body shell.

I tend to disagree but it may depend on your definition of 'real modeller' as, in their own eyes, this can range from changing a running number and applying a bit of weathering all the way to installing a new chassis under a body hacked from another loco type. You could argue that real modellers would not even use a RTR chassis......but that is another discussion for somewhere else.

 

Besides what would be the point of spending hundreds of pounds for a well finished model only to seriously hack it. A basic body shell is all you need.

[Dunsignalling]

I tend to disagree but it may depend on your definition of 'real modeller' as, in their own eyes, this can range from changing a running number and applying a bit of weathering all the way to installing a new chassis under a body hacked from another loco type. You could argue that real modellers would not even use a RTR chassis......but that is another discussion for somewhere else.

 

Besides what would be the point of spending hundreds of pounds for a well finished model only to seriously hack it. A basic body shell is all you need.

 

There are various reasons, for me at least, for buying "full fat" models and (to a limited extent) chopping them about.

 

[1] The degree of "hacking" to which I stretch allows the retention of the factory finish which, on passenger locos, exceeds the quality I can attain when a full repaint becomes necessary, as it does following the removal of moulded handrails from a basic / obsolete / Railroad body. 

 

[2] Saving the expense of a professional paint-and-lining job equal to Hornby's (main range) standard, makes the entire cost of a "full fat" loco inconsequential, let alone the price differential between a "Railroad" and "Main Range" model. 

 

[3] I only build loco chassis when it becomes necessary, i.e. when the original wears out, and not always then as I am always on the lookout for affordable transplant donors. In any case, there are EM/P4 conversion sets available for many of the more popular r-t-r models so a full chassis build is presumably regarded as unnecessary by many modelling in those sectors.   

 

In truth, "real modellers" lacking my self-confessed shortcomings / preferences only need the step-up provided by a r-t-r body as a time-saver, so a pre-owned non-runner with a bit of fixable cosmetic damage is an obvious source of cheap raw material. I have a Hornby Wilton in just that condition, acquired as a source of spares for just £30; which turned out to be retrievable so I am repairing / detailing / renaming it instead. The non-running was down to something simple and the small amount of paint damage I need to rectify will be disguised by a little judicious weathering (which is something I can do).

 

John

Edited March 1, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[John Isherwood]

Besides what would be the point of spending hundreds of pounds for a well finished model only to seriously hack it. A basic body shell is all you need.

 

But the basic body shells are not available, because the manufacturers know that the 'hackers' - me amongst them - will buy the same 'full fat' model that the 'non-modellers' demand.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Dunsignalling]

But the basic body shells are not available, because the manufacturers know that the 'hackers' - me amongst them - will buy the same 'full fat' model that the 'non-modellers' demand.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Agreed, and the high-mileage "runners" will always snap up an unwanted r-t-r chassis from those who wish to construct a more exotic replacement.

 

John

[Phil Parker]

But the basic body shells are not available, because the manufacturers know that the 'hackers' - me amongst them - will buy the same 'full fat' model that the 'non-modellers' demand.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

More likely because producing extra bodyshells requires an arrangement with the factory in China - who don't understand the concept of spare parts.

 

That and how many would they realistically sell? Ten per model? Chopping up RTR is no longer the mainstream activity it once was. I doubt they would be cheap either as the manual labour of putting the bits on is the bulk of the price. 

[dibber25]

More likely because producing extra bodyshells requires an arrangement with the factory in China - who don't understand the concept of spare parts.

 

That and how many would they realistically sell? Ten per model? Chopping up RTR is no longer the mainstream activity it once was. I doubt they would be cheap either as the manual labour of putting the bits on is the bulk of the price. 

 

It's impossible to make any money on spare parts when they have to be transported across the world. Also, manufacturers prefer to supply a finished product. Can you imagine Rolls-Royce selling all the bits so that Joe Bloggs could cobble together a 'Rolls-Royce' in his back yard?

[John Isherwood]

More likely because producing extra bodyshells requires an arrangement with the factory in China - who don't understand the concept of spare parts.

 

That and how many would they realistically sell? Ten per model? Chopping up RTR is no longer the mainstream activity it once was. I doubt they would be cheap either as the manual labour of putting the bits on is the bulk of the price. 

 

I couldn't agree more - that was my point in refuting the proposition by another poster that basic body-only mouldings would sell well; (see the post to which I responded).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Jeff Smith]

I couldn't agree more - that was my point in refuting the proposition by another poster that basic body-only mouldings would sell well; (see the post to which I responded).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

As the poster who proposed body shell sales I will refine my suggestion. The RTR manufacturers are in reality producing kits of parts and then assembling them. Perhaps they could just box up parts, still on sprues to minimise labour costs.......

[adb968008]

As the poster who proposed body shell sales I will refine my suggestion. The RTR manufacturers are in reality producing kits of parts and then assembling them. Perhaps they could just box up parts, still on sprues to minimise labour costs.......

I suspect much of the profit for a rtr model railway item comes from making it rtr, not the simple injection moulding of sprues and dropping them in a box.

 

There’s no incentive to put employees out of a job and give away the profit by shipping self to assemble boxes of sprues around the world.

 

Many of the motors used in rtr locos can be bought about £1-2 each, but only if you buy a 1000 of them.. any other way it’s not worth it, which is why they end up at £15 each in spares departments.

 

The spares we tend to get available are quite often the leftovers at the end of production, unless special exceptional efforts are made (think mazak replacements etc) or are long term stock consumable items in their own right (couplings for example).

Edited March 3, 2018 by adb968008

[Jeff Smith]

Ok, makes sense.

 

My recent RTR experience is limited to a Bachmann 57xxx which had a plastic body and several Bachmann On30 locos which I believe all had metal bodies. What are current and new British outline loco bodies generally made from?

[adb968008]

Ok, makes sense.

My recent RTR experience is limited to a Bachmann 57xxx which had a plastic body and several Bachmann On30 locos which I believe all had metal bodies. What are current and new British outline loco bodies generally made from?

Plastic bodies, metal fittings (handrails, grills etc), then metal chassis blocks (mazak).

Fittings applied at the factory are either plastic or metal depending on the nature, but invariably plastic.

Edited March 3, 2018 by adb968008

[sem34090]

Interesting...

 

As a young modeller on a limited budget, I have often felt that it would be nice if bodyshells and/or chassis were available separately, especially given that my tastes have moved to pre-grouping modelling. 

 

On the Main vs Railroad idea, I can no longer afford either on a regular basis, but for me it is interesting to note that the 'design-clever' Hall is (even at regular, as opposed to 'box-shifter' prices) retailing for a lower price than the old tooling Black Five, and I know which one I went for. I think, in order to be successful, Railroad needs to be priced at an affordable level. Too many people on here seem to think that £80-£90 is cheap for a model, and whilst I have paid that for some high-end models I will not be buying RTR for all that much longer, especially when I can design myself a loco in CAD, to fit a cheap chassis, for roughly £20. Those who see £80-£90 as cheap may like to consider that, at present, I've been saving up for the 'reasonably priced' Hattons Andrew Barclay since announcement, and I'm very glad that the release date has slipped.

 

Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan and now even Oxford to some extent are pricing themselves out of the market for quite a few people, and if any of them want their business to be sustainable they will have to try and do one of a few different things to bring their prices down, and this applies to retailers too:

 

Back at the Woking show in September, I came across a stand selling brand new Hornby locos which had been weathered professionally. They had been bought at trade price by a gentleman to weather, then to sell on as professionally weathered models. Unfortunately, said gentleman had passed away with several unsold and unfinished models still at home. His widow wanted rid of them, so they were sold at trade price for the finished examples. Now, they were selling a renamed, renumbered Hornby 'Exeter' at £70. Kernow, on the other side of the hall, were selling another (The weathered models had never been run) new 34001 at £149.99. That's more than double the price. So Hornby will have made profit, presumably, selling them at trade price (£70), so what does that leave the manufacturing cost at? £30? £50? I could justify a Bulleid Pacific at £70 (Incidentally I purchased an unfinished rename/renumber job of 'Exeter' to 34023 'Blackmoor Vale', which one of the blokes running the stand then finished off for me.), but not at almost £150. If Hornby can sell these to retailers at £70 (and, judging by some discount prices, and assuming those retailers are still making profit, this is a correct figure)  for a full-spec model, then (as I said) they must be producing these locos at roughly £30-£50 each. If they were to produce a Bulleid pacific without sprung buffers, separate ladders on the tender, no separate lamps, no separate cab detail, and very few other separately fitted details, then that could bring the price down to around £20-£30 manufacturing cost, trade price roughly £40 - £50 and RRP at roughly £70. No new tooling commissioned, just less bits being added to the bodyshell.

 

Please correct me if any of the above is wrong, but I think you (As I no longer really buy RTR: I do my own CAD's instead) are all being short-changed somewhat!

 

Regards,

 

E. Missenden

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan and now even Oxford to some extent are pricing themselves out of the market for quite a few people, and if any of them want their business to be sustainable they will have to try and do one of a few different things to bring their prices down, and this applies to retailers too:

 

 

On the other hand they might perceive their market to be people with a higher disposable income and not be interested in a wider market.

There is a lot to be said for selling to a limited niche market at a good mark up.

The model railway business does not seem at the moment to have decided on what corner of the market offers the best possible returns in the middle to long term.

If it is to be a sustainable business then they need to find the sweet spot before the likes of me are pushing up daisies. 

I do not see a return to the production numbers that were at one time the norm happening.

Bernard

[sem34090]

I think what I'm seeing, rightly or wrongly, is a market that won't last for ever, and my concern is that they are over-charging now in preparation for a fall, but they have already got the tooling there that can produce much cheaper models of the same quality for the time when that market runs dry.

 

My worry is that too many people, like myself, will have long since stopped buying RTR, or will just be put off the hobby entirely by the current, uncalled for, high prices that these companies will fold. Why should I buy RTR when a simple 3D Printed kit for a cheap, readily available chassis is not only cheaper, but suits my needs better and actually gives me more satisfaction through having to detail and paint it myself?

[robmcg]

I think what I'm seeing, rightly or wrongly, is a market that won't last for ever, and my concern is that they are over-charging now in preparation for a fall, but they have already got the tooling there that can produce much cheaper models of the same quality for the time when that market runs dry.

 

My worry is that too many people, like myself, will have long since stopped buying RTR, or will just be put off the hobby entirely by the current, uncalled for, high prices that these companies will fold. Why should I buy RTR when a simple 3D Printed kit for a cheap, readily available chassis is not only cheaper, but suits my needs better and actually gives me more satisfaction through having to detail and paint it myself?

 

I think there are quite a lot of buyers for models in the £100-£200 range, as part of a hobby, and being discretional spending. Similar money is spent on classic cars, any number of hobbies.

Europe has model railway buyers who will pay a lot more.

 

Finely crafted 00 models made in China are to my eye quite beautiful when they represent a prototype which I like, and are much more detailed than I could ever do by hand, I don't think the market is going to dry up anytime soon.