Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Looking North

[Penrhos1920]

On 25/03/2024 at 16:46, Skinnylinny said:

. They've enough to deal with now that I'm getting back into organ practice too (well, as best I can with a MIDI keyboard, and an old church organ pedalboard that I've managed to acquire and am planning to MIDI-ify...) but at least that I can do on headphones!

Hauptwerk or Grandorgue?

[Skinnylinny]

  

15 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

A real wooden case would be even better!

It would, although I lack the required woodworking skills, and no longer have access to the laser cutter since moving to Glasgow-ish. 
 

13 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

Hauptwerk or Grandorgue?

GrandOrgue at the moment, as I don't have the cash to drop on a copy of GrandOrgue, and I'm sort of cautiously dipping my toe back in for as little spend as possible. The 61-key MIDI keyboard cost me £60, while the pedalboard has cost me the grand total of £1.04 on eBay and the price of a decent takeout dinner for a friend to drive it up to me! It will require a bank of microswitches, and the use of an Arduino which I already have, to MIDI-ify it.

[Skinnylinny]

The frame now has lever numbers (Also 3d printed), and work has started on printing the block instrument. All the circuitry fits inside, although I've had to temporarily substitute momentary toggle switches while I await the push-buttons arriving. I've also set up a temporary trackplan board to make testing easier. 



Now to decide what type of wood veneer to use - mahogany or cherry. Or possibly walnut. All three are rather nice!

I ought to start thinking about signals, I suppose...

[Skinnylinny]

Yes, I ought to start thinking about signals... As I've mentioned before, the history of Linton Town includes the company contracting out the supply of signalling equipment to Messrs. Saxby & Farmer. As such, I'd rather like to have split-post signals, although I'd prefer to have the spectacles mounted on the same spindles as the arms (similar to the NER designs), rather than lower down the post, which was S&F's more common modus operandi at the time. I've been having trouble getting any useful drawings of similar signals, too. I suspect that I may have to "bash" mine together from a mixture of MSE parts intended for S&F and NER signals, and Ian MacCormac's parts.

What I'll need on the visible part of the layout will be something like this: 



I'm not going to lie, I'm rather nervous about the bracket for numbers 16-19! While I'm a big fan of 3D printing in various situations, I think that metal kits will likely be rather more able to stand up to the rigours of operation. I have previously made some laser-cut signals out of MDF, card, and acetate, but I can't decide whether they look too chunky or not.

Unfortunately, at the moment, the layout boards are packed up, so I don't have any brilliant photos of them, but these are what I do have!

[Skinnylinny]

A brief step away from signals... I have had a very empty, nicely-built (not by me!) Roxey LSWR lavatory brake tricomposite sat on a shelf, glaring at me, along with a packet of the Ratio carriage seating strips. My previous attempts at using these were... somewhat abortive, so I spent a few minutes drawing up some rough approximations in CAD. Given these will be inside compartments with small windows, I came to the conclusion that filament printing would suit absolutely fine, so I've drawn up a few different types of seats (first, second and third class, with central or offset lavatory doors). 





I was wondering if they'd be useful to anyone else? I can pop the files on Thingiverse or similar, and they're fairly quick and easy to print. Certainly they saved me a lot of effort!

[Michael Hodgson]

On 25/03/2024 at 11:20, Skinnylinny said:

 

 

 

 

Excellent job, and I do like the wood finish. 

 

You'll have to decide whether you are working the instrument to your fiddle yard operator who uses an identical one, or to a simulator of some sort (or possibly both options).  One way of modelling bells I've usd that isn't too loud is to take the bell from an old fashioned GPO telephone and modify that to single-stroke working.

 

Your wiring of the instrument is unlikely to justify following full size practice, as that includes complexity such as minimising the number of telegraph line wires between signalboxes and a latching design for safety so that the instrument keeps its last indication in the event that line wires come down in a storm (generally one wire with earth return on this style with miniature signal arms), and separate power supplies at each end.  I've used non-protoypical circuitry for simplicity using home made miniature 3-position instruments, as did Tri-ang with their short-lived RT268 block instrument.

 

 

One thing you'll have to decide with this two-position style of instrument is how to represent the "Normal" condition of the line in your block working, the third position of a more modern block when there's no trains about.  There were differences between companies in their rules.  Some instruments had additional aids such as reminder flaps or indicators to reduce the risk of errors (such as in the GER flap instrument, or in the Harpers blocks used in Ireland)  https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co209395/telegraph-block-instrument-great-eastern-railway-telegraph-instrument

The complexity of design could complicate which plungers you pressed to work the bell depending on the state of the block/message you were sending, since this could affect the instrument's indication.

 

Some railways equated Line clear (miniature arm in the off position) to be the Normal position, as logically the line must be clear if it isn't its occupied.  This probably made sense to railwaymen who had been brought up with Time Interval before block working was introduced, when signals had only been at Danger for a short period after train had passed.

 

Other railways equated Train on Line (miniature arm at Danger) with Normal position, as it was seen as safer to regard the line as blocked except when it had been specifically established as clear for the passage of a particular train.  The miniature arm should then show the same indication as the signal outdoors.  I believe the SR inherited both practices at grouping and perpetuated the old procedures in different Divisions of the company.

 

As you're modelling a fictitious company, you've got that choice to make.

 

 

[Skinnylinny]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Excellent job, and I do like the wood finish. 

 

You'll have to decide whether you are working the instrument to your fiddle yard operator who uses an identical one, or to a simulator of some sort (or possibly both options).  One way of modelling bells I've usd that isn't too loud is to take the bell from an old fashioned GPO telephone and modify that to single-stroke working.

 

Your wiring of the instrument is unlikely to justify following full size practice, as that includes complexity such as minimising the number of telegraph line wires between signalboxes and a latching design for safety so that the instrument keeps its last indication in the event that line wires come down in a storm (generally one wire with earth return on this style with miniature signal arms), and separate power supplies at each end.  I've used non-protoypical circuitry for simplicity using home made miniature 3-position instruments, as did Tri-ang with their short-lived RT268 block instrument.

 

 

One thing you'll have to decide with this two-position style of instrument is how to represent the "Normal" condition of the line in your block working, the third position of a more modern block when there's no trains about.  There were differences between companies in their rules.  Some instruments had additional aids such as reminder flaps or indicators to reduce the risk of errors (such as in the GER flap instrument, or in the Harpers blocks used in Ireland)  https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co209395/telegraph-block-instrument-great-eastern-railway-telegraph-instrument

The complexity of design could complicate which plungers you pressed to work the bell depending on the state of the block/message you were sending, since this could affect the instrument's indication.

 

Some railways equated Line clear (miniature arm in the off position) to be the Normal position, as logically the line must be clear if it isn't its occupied.  This probably made sense to railwaymen who had been brought up with Time Interval before block working was introduced, when signals had only been at Danger for a short period after train had passed.

 

Other railways equated Train on Line (miniature arm at Danger) with Normal position, as it was seen as safer to regard the line as blocked except when it had been specifically established as clear for the passage of a particular train.  The miniature arm should then show the same indication as the signal outdoors.  I believe the SR inherited both practices at grouping and perpetuated the old procedures in different Divisions of the company.

 

As you're modelling a fictitious company, you've got that choice to make.

Thank you! Unfortunately, that's only a computer render, and I haven't applied the "wood"  finish to the 3D print yet!

For home working (by myself) I expect it'll end up with a simulated signaller up the line (if at all), but for exhibitions, the idea would be to communicate between fiddle yard and layout by bell codes. However! To save the sanity of those around the layout, I intend to use recorded bell beats, with a choice between a small speaker or an earphone (both with volume control).

As to the wiring, I do have a set of the Triang instruments, although they haven't made their way back into the daylight since the house move. I rather fancied having proper coil-operated arms, but trying to get the bits these days is not easy. At the moment, the example print is designed around servos. Not ideal, but good enough for now. I suppose if I did want to go for bells, bicycle bells might be a suitable option, coming in a variety of shapes, tones, and materials.

I have to admit, I'd assumed that the instrument would usually be at "danger" unless the line were explicitly cleared by the signaller in advance. That said, I can see the logic in assuming the line is clear if there's no train on it!

[Michael Hodgson]

On 20/04/2024 at 12:33, Skinnylinny said:

Yes, I ought to start thinking about signals... As I've mentioned before, the history of Linton Town includes the company contracting out the supply of signalling equipment to Messrs. Saxby & Farmer. As such, I'd rather like to have split-post signals, although I'd prefer to have the spectacles mounted on the same spindles as the arms (similar to the NER designs), rather than lower down the post, which was S&F's more common modus operandi at the time. I've been having trouble getting any useful drawings of similar signals, too. I suspect that I may have to "bash" mine together from a mixture of MSE parts intended for S&F and NER signals, and Ian MacCormac's parts.

What I'll need on the visible part of the layout will be something like this: 



I'm not going to lie, I'm rather nervous about the bracket for numbers 16-19! While I'm a big fan of 3D printing in various situations, I think that metal kits will likely be rather more able to stand up to the rigours of operation. I have previously made some laser-cut signals out of MDF, card, and acetate, but I can't decide whether they look too chunky or not.
 

My instinct has always been to go for metal for strength, but if you have a 3D printer and the knowledge to use it, you do have the advantage that if you break something you can print off another one.   A downside of anything with moving parts is that it will entail different components and an assembly job, so becomes a hassle.   I suppose it then comes down to how clumsy you are = how often you think you're likely to need to do that.  So I'd still be aiming to try and provide some protection where possible - by placing close to an overbridge for example.

[Skinnylinny]

Well, I decided to poke the idea of printed signals, although I'm looking at the possibility of including a slot through the post for a brass rod to keep everything straight and hopefully strengthen things! Gary ( @BlueLightning ) has very kindly resin printed a few test parts for me, and they appear to be functional at least - this is a subsidiary arm, post and spectacle, put together after printing and priming:

 

I have made the post a little too chunky, and need to slightly change the spectacle shape, but it's definitely coming along nicely, and looks like a reasonable proof of concept. 

The bracket signal has been redesigned based on the above, and new files have been sent to Gary for more proof-of-concept prints. If this works, I shall try for a more final design, although I'll still be using brass parts for safety rails and ladders.

[cornamuse]

On 28/03/2024 at 09:06, Skinnylinny said:

 
 

GrandOrgue at the moment, as I don't have the cash to drop on a copy of GrandOrgue, and I'm sort of cautiously dipping my toe back in for as little spend as possible. The 61-key MIDI keyboard cost me £60, while the pedalboard has cost me the grand total of £1.04 on eBay and the price of a decent takeout dinner for a friend to drive it up to me! It will require a bank of microswitches, and the use of an Arduino which I already have, to MIDI-ify it.

ooooooooh another couple of organists… if you are ever near Durham, my office is a nice 3 manual viscount… you are very welcome to come and make the church rattle 

[Nick C]

21 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

Well, I decided to poke the idea of printed signals, although I'm looking at the possibility of including a slot through the post for a brass rod to keep everything straight and hopefully strengthen things! Gary ( @BlueLightning ) has very kindly resin printed a few test parts for me, and they appear to be functional at least - this is a subsidiary arm, post and spectacle, put together after printing and priming:

 

I have made the post a little too chunky, and need to slightly change the spectacle shape, but it's definitely coming along nicely, and looks like a reasonable proof of concept. 

The bracket signal has been redesigned based on the above, and new files have been sent to Gary for more proof-of-concept prints. If this works, I shall try for a more final design, although I'll still be using brass parts for safety rails and ladders.

Might it be a bit stronger if you used brass for the arm and spectacle as well? I can imagine those being a bit fragile in resin?

[Skinnylinny]

12 hours ago, cornamuse said:

ooooooooh another couple of organists… if you are ever near Durham, my office is a nice 3 manual viscount… you are very welcome to come and make the church rattle 

That's very kind, thank you! I am extremely rusty at the moment, but slowly getting back some of the muscle memory, albeit only on one manual at the moment. Rummaging through the New English Hymnal and some books of Pachelbel organworks (not, I hasten to add, the Canon in D, for which I gained a bit of a dislike after being presented with the 'cello part while playing in a flute ensemble), I've been enjoying getting back into the swing of things.
 

8 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Might it be a bit stronger if you used brass for the arm and spectacle as well? I can imagine those being a bit fragile in resin?

For the arm, yes, I could use brass, specifically the MSE Saxby & Farmer arm etches. Unfortunately, they don't produce the specific type of spectacle that I am after for these signals, nor do EB Models. I looked at using the spectacles from NER slotted-post signals, but they're quite a different shape - these S&F ones have a very distinctive, almost egg-like shape to the glasses. Fortunately, I think that once glued to a piece of acetate, the resin spectacles should be strong enough - they're not taking any mechanical strain, as the operating pushrod is attached to the signal arm, and the signal lamp should reduce the chance of them being caught and bent.

On a different note! This weekend coming is my club's first exhibition in many years, being held at George Watson's College in Edinburgh. With 13 layouts and 6 traders, we're hopeful it'll be a success, and if anyone finds themself in the area, it would be lovely to see you. We'll also have a table for the Bo'ness Gauge 'O' Group who are fundraising after the recent arson attack on their clubroom/layout display at the Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway.

https://elmrc.org.uk/elmrc-exhibition/

Edited May 28 by Skinnylinny

[BlueLightning]

8 hours ago, Nick C said:

Might it be a bit stronger if you used brass for the arm and spectacle as well? I can imagine those being a bit fragile in resin?

 

The spectacle is stronger than I expected, It'll hopefully be even better when I don't mess up the resin settings (I had the slicer set to the wrong type of resin for that particular print 😛)

[Skinnylinny]

Well, while Gary is printing out signals for me, I have finally got around to finishing off the SER-designed horsebox, ready for its test print. Thus I now have three horseboxes - one each from LSWR, LB&SCR and SECR. I perhaps ought to consider an LCDR one, too. However, I'd like to try to do a carriage truck for each of the companies. I've already done the LSWR one, after all...

 

 

If all goes well, these ought to become available through Oak Hill Works at some point.

[Skinnylinny]

...oops, I meant to include this render. From the left: LB&SCR Stroudley D53 horsebox (1871), SER D1106 horsebox (1899), LSWR 16' horsebox (1896).

[Henry.]

I have a 3d printer and am interested in building a locking frame.What cad software did you use and Is it possible to have a copy of the locking frame?

[Skinnylinny]

Hi Henry,

I used Autodesk Fusion 360 to design the frame and interlocking. I'm the first to admit that the frame as it stands is a bit delicate (and can be rather picky about how it's supported on the print bed!), but I would be happy to share the Fusion 360 files if that's software you can work with? I can also list the other bits you'd need.

Unfortunately, you'd need to design your own locking tray, as obviously the locking on my layout won't work for yours!

[Henry.]

Thanks I can work with the software and design my own tray just so long as it is compatible with the lever frame.

[Skinnylinny]

Well, what I'll do is I'll sort out a file for the whole lever frame and tray, and hopefully you can see how it works and modify it to make your own?

[Henry.]

That sounds great thanks.

[Nick C]

14 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

I'm the first to admit that the frame as it stands is a bit delicate (and can be rather picky about how it's supported on the print bed!)

Might that also benefit from a few strategic bits of brass rod to strengthen things? Perhaps a bit of wire down the middle of each lever?

[Henry.]

Fusion 360 downloaded🙂

[Henry.]

What is the best way to print the middle frames?

[Henry.]

29 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Might that also benefit from a few strategic bits of brass rod to strengthen things? Perhaps a bit of wire down the middle of each lever?

Maybe. I haven't printed that much yet but the lever is a bit flimsy

[Skinnylinny]

44 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Might that also benefit from a few strategic bits of brass rod to strengthen things? Perhaps a bit of wire down the middle of each lever?

Unfortunately the levers are too thin to fit brass rod down the middle of them. I did consider getting them cast or machined in metal but that worked out extremely expensive!
 

16 minutes ago, Henry. said:

What is the best way to print the middle frames?

 

The middle sections of the frames printed best laid flat on the print bed. The levers were best at particular angles to prevent them delaminating or flexing while printing (see screengrabs in this post). Other bits you'll need include 5mm rod for the lever pivot, 3mm threaded rod and nuts to hold the frame together, 2mm threaded rod and nuts for the microswitch mounts (I used these microswitches from Amazon), M2x5mm screws for the catch handles, and tension springs (I used these from Amazon).

There are two styles of middle quadrant plate - with and without microswitch mounting holes. I found that I could get away with only using the "with" plates every third quadrant plate, with spacers to keep the microswitches aligned with the levers. 

I'll try to get a file that is shareable either later today, or tomorrow. 

Edited May 30 by Skinnylinny