Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Looking North

[Edwardian]

Edwardian,

 

I'll definitely be producing a Scotch Brake (single-shoe, long lever) as an alternative, which means an alternative solebar (minus the large V hanger and with a smaller one attached) will be provided. As for the angle plates, I've sent you a PM!

 

Linny

 

Good news!

 

As for the angle plates, I have been looking at the photographs and drawing on pp26-27 of Southern Wagons vo.2  They deffo look slimmer than yours, though, as I say, it could be an optical illusion - what drawing did you use? 

 

Perhaps, as you say, the card over-lay widens it, in which case would paper be more to scale?

[Skinnylinny]

I don't remember off-hand which drawings I used I'm afraid - I'll have to look into it when I get home from the club tonight. It's possible (with the Brighton) that there were several variations all appearing under the same diagram. Paper would be very flexible and tricky - keeping the strapping straight does require some strength in the card itself. I have some card on the way which is about half as thick as the white card used above, and I'll probably do another test cut to test that out (along with the Scotch brake) in the next few days. Watch this space!

[Skinnylinny]

Minor update - the van got a quick spray with some Phoenix Precision LBSCR Grey at the club this evening, and it's acted as primer to some extent, hiding the joins between dissimilar materials. The strapping is definitely visibly over scale thickness, but my thinner card has arrived, so I'll try to do another test cut tomorrow and see how it all looks together. Now that Edwardian has mentioned the corner strapping, I'm not sure about it either - I'll have a proper look at more drawings and photographs tomorrow and see what I can figure out. Other than that, though, I continue to be pleasantly surprised by how well this kit looks! The chassis also runs very freely, so I think I can count this one as a success.

 

 

[Edwardian]

Really well done with that.

[Regularity]

Nice job.

Sadly the only thing the laser seems not to be able to do is rivets,

What it could do, is cut some small holes in the card, which would serve to locate small blobs of pva, applied with the square-cut end of a piece of brass rod, as per Chris Payne’s 1:34 French outline 2’ gauge models on St. Pierre.

[Skinnylinny]

I'd been thinking more along the lines of Archers rivet transfers to produce the desired effect, but I'd not considered that idea! Not sure how practical it'd be with what's already fairly thin, delicate strapping. I'll have to have another play around tomorrow!

[JCL]

Hi there, it's all looking really brilliant.

 

I was thinking about the strapping, I've found that if I lightly engrave the outline of the wagon onto 1mm or 1.5mm mdf, I can then use those marks as a positioning aid for pieces of mailing label. I then cut the label (I've a standard setting that will cut the label only and not the material underneath), peel the waste off the mdf, and finally cut the sides out of the MDF. It doesn't take as long as you think, and it means you don't need to position the strapping by hand. The label is fixed firmly in place by the primer.

 

Also, Mike Trice gave me a method for quick and dirty rivets - at least for the corner bracing. Basically cut a piece out that has a hole for each rivet, then lay that over the back of the piece you want the rivets in and press a ballpoint or blunt compass end through each hole. Best to have a cutting mat underneath that gives a little bit but not a whole lot.

 

The chassis on your wagon is a thing of beauty.

[Compound2632]

For the corner plates, thin card folded by hand may give a better appearance than a perforated fold line. I've found this to work well with 10 thou plasticard. (I'm afraid I'm not currently using your more eco-friendly materials.) Remember the real thing was a piece of bent sheet steel, typically around 3/8" thick - 5 thou in 4 mm scale so you've a better chance of achieving prototype thickness.

[Skinnylinny]

For the corner plates, thin card folded by hand may give a better appearance than a perforated fold line. I've found this to work well with 10 thou plasticard. (I'm afraid I'm not currently using your more eco-friendly materials.) Remember the real thing was a piece of bent sheet steel, typically around 3/8" thick - 5 thou in 4 mm scale so you've a better chance of achieving prototype thickness.

 

That's the plan! I made a slight mess of the drawing at the corner (hence why test-cuts are so important!) so the laser cutter etched repeatedly on various bits. I'll adjust it so it should be a single etched groove, all the better for folding. Also the thinner card has arrived so I'll test that in a few hours when I get to the lab.

[Skinnylinny]

So, strapping done with thinner card, and the angle strapping reduced in width, Scotch brake, side vents (at least I assume that's what they are, down near the floor next to the doors? Only appeared on some 8-ton vans)... second test cut. I intend to include a few parts to allow for detail differences between wagons, and the LB&SCR seemed to call any 8 or 10 ton van "Diagram 8", despite them covering at least 5 different SR drawing numbers...

 

 

Since this cut I have tweaked the brake gear to get the shoe closer to the wheel (there's about a 1.5mm gap at the moment, but the CAD has now been tweaked to half that distance.

 

[Edwardian]

So, strapping done with thinner card, and the angle strapping reduced in width, Scotch brake, side vents (at least I assume that's what they are, down near the floor next to the doors? Only appeared on some 8-ton vans)... second test cut. I intend to include a few parts to allow for detail differences between wagons, and the LB&SCR seemed to call any 8 or 10 ton van "Diagram 8", despite them covering at least 5 different SR drawing numbers...

 

IMG_20180815_171755211.jpg

 

Since this cut I have tweaked the brake gear to get the shoe closer to the wheel (there's about a 1.5mm gap at the moment, but the CAD has now been tweaked to half that distance.

 

Excellent.

 

A really appropriate and skilful use of a medium. Very convincing result.

 

Positively itching to get my hands on some!

[Skinnylinny]

Not one, but two (!) Stroudley 8 ton vans later, painted and in the process of being lettered (and one requiring a roof which I frustratingly left at home!), hiding amongst a few other LB&SCR and LSWR wagons on the Edinburgh and Lothians MRC layout-under-construction. I'm very much enjoying these wagon kits, and I think I might have to design and make a few more...

 

 

 

If all goes well, I hope to have the kits ready for production some time next week. Tomorrow I start training for my new Saturday job, which means a) a little less time for the kit design but b) a little more money coming in, which is always a bonus!

[Edwardian]

I'm very much enjoying these wagon kits, and I think I might have to design and make a few more...

 

 

 

Is the correct answer!

 

These are superb.

 

I've ordered more wheels in anticipation!

 

Where do the transfers come from? HMRS, Roxey?

[Skinnylinny]

Thank you! The transfers are from the HMRS SR goods vehicle insignia (inc. pre-Grouping) sheet, and the buffers are 5&9 Stroudley Van/Wagon buffers. I'm still gradually working up the courage/patience to build up more wagon running numbers and tare weights out of individual pressfix digits. They're fiddly but they look so good!

Edited August 17, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Compound2632]

I think I might have to design and make a few more...

 

Time for a wishlist poll!

 

Are you willing to look a little bit further east?

 

SER covered goods wagon SR Diagram 1553

SER round end open wagon SR Diagram 1327

SER coal wagon SR Diagram 1328

SER goods brake SR Diagram 1553

 

I've been envious of the 7mm SERKits range for a while! SER 4mm scale wagon kits are almost non-existent - apart from some long-gone Ks and D&S kits - though for some reason the LCDR is represented. 

[Edwardian]

Time for a wishlist poll!

 

Are you willing to look a little bit further east?

 

SER covered goods wagon SR Diagram 1553

SER round end open wagon SR Diagram 1327

SER coal wagon SR Diagram 1328

SER goods brake SR Diagram 1553

 

I've been envious of the 7mm SERKits range for a while! SER 4mm scale wagon kits are almost non-existent - apart from some long-gone Ks and D&S kits - though for some reason the LCDR is represented. 

 

My list is longer ... but those'll do for a start!

 

Linny informs me there is a Cunning Plan for opens, the sound of which I very much like!

[Skinnylinny]

I'm definitely willing to look east! In fact, with Linton (Great Southern Railway) being based in the near vicinity of Guildford, a few SER wagons (and perhaps, being set after 1899, a few LCDR ones too, but there are a couple of kits extant for them) would have been bound to appear. Even the SE&CR society doesn't mention the existence of any 4mm scale SER wagons in their reference list! The trickiest bit appears to be getting hold of reference materials - drawings, photographs etc. However, I'm looking at getting hold of a copy of An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons - Volume 3: SECR. Could anyone who has a copy of this have a quick flick through and tell me if there are many pre-1899 wagon drawings in there, and whether it would be worth me getting hold of a copy?

[Edwardian]

I'm definitely willing to look east! In fact, with Linton (Great Southern Railway) being based in the near vicinity of Guildford, a few SER wagons (and perhaps, being set after 1899, a few LCDR ones too, but there are a couple of kits extant for them) would have been bound to appear. Even the SE&CR society doesn't mention the existence of any 4mm scale SER wagons in their reference list! The trickiest bit appears to be getting hold of reference materials - drawings, photographs etc. However, I'm looking at getting hold of a copy of An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons - Volume 3: SECR. Could anyone who has a copy of this have a quick flick through and tell me if there are many pre-1899 wagon drawings in there, and whether it would be worth me getting hold of a copy?

 

Lots.  As a consequence, I am still only mid-way through scanning the chapter on open wagons for you!

 

See what you think, but the line drawings include livery markings where these are known from SE&CR livery diagrams, so these might aid your choice.

 

By all means a van or 3, but, as we know, opens are needed in greater quantity.  SE&CR opens were not exclusively round-ended, and one should aim for a representative sample, perhaps, but those tall round-ended wagons were built in numbers over a long period by both constituents and the SE&C, so are an essential and typical feature of the line.

 

I also want to mention brake vans. Certainly prior to the introduction of the 20-ton vans, the smaller brakes were, and remained, inadequate, so goods trains on the SE&CR would typically run with a brake at each end.  Whereas there is an effective way of converting the 20-ton brakes, based on a Midland design, from Parkside kits, I am very interested in building up a number of the smaller, older types, which remained in service in numbers and are very evident in the photographic record.

 

Now, I believe the practice of a brake at each end also obtained on the LB&SC, so we'd need a few of these too!

 

Please!

 

All of this fits with your layout, so far as I am aware. 

[Skinnylinny]

Ooooft, that's very kind of you, James. I would suggest that you maybe stop scanning just now - I've just placed an order for a copy of the book, along with the LBSC and LSWR ones too - a use for an Amazon voucher given to me as a birthday present last month, and with each of the books being around the £15 mark, it would have been rude not to!. It sounds like there'll be plenty in there to keep me busy! However, I'm nervous of falling down the rabbit hole of having many half-finished kits. I really must create instructions for at least two kits which I have drawn up and test-built, even though I do enjoy designing and building rather more than I enjoy writing instructions!

Edited August 17, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Nick Holliday]

Just a small point about the LBSC van. The bottom of the side is the curb rail, intended to pick up the floor boards, and form the threshold of the door opening, and take the bottom of the door hinges. This is a fairly solid timber beam, around four inches or so square, with a rebate to take the flooring. It is noticeably shallower than the rest of the side planks, which are all the same height. The top of the curb rail lines up with the bottom edge of the corner plate, which is a useful guide to its size, which I haven't been able to find an exact dimension for.

On metal framed wagons, at least on the LBSC, this bottom rail was usuallymuch smaller, appearing to match the thickness of the floor planks. I'm not sure if Smallbrook quite captured this on their model of this rarer type of Brighton van.

[Compound2632]

I'm definitely willing to look east! In fact, with Linton (Great Southern Railway) being based in the near vicinity of Guildford, a few SER wagons (and perhaps, being set after 1899, a few LCDR ones too, but there are a couple of kits extant for them) would have been bound to appear. Even the SE&CR society doesn't mention the existence of any 4mm scale SER wagons in their reference list! The trickiest bit appears to be getting hold of reference materials - drawings, photographs etc. However, I'm looking at getting hold of a copy of An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons - Volume 3: SECR. Could anyone who has a copy of this have a quick flick through and tell me if there are many pre-1899 wagon drawings in there, and whether it would be worth me getting hold of a copy?

 

Actually SERKits sell CAD drawings for most of the wagons I mentioned, except, frustratingly, the van. You might need to check with Dan Garrett if you were going to use them for something you were going to sell.

[Edwardian]

Ooooft, that's very kind of you, James. I would suggest that you maybe stop scanning just now - I've just placed an order for a copy of the book, along with the LBSC and LSWR ones too - a use for an Amazon voucher given to me as a birthday present last month, and with each of the books being around the £15 mark, it would have been rude not to!. It sounds like there'll be plenty in there to keep me busy! However, I'm nervous of falling down the rabbit hole of having many half-finished kits. I really must create instructions for at least two kits which I have drawn up and test-built, even though I do enjoy designing and building rather more than I enjoy writing instructions!

 

Then I'll stop!

 

When you get them, in relation to SE&CR brakes, the ones I suggest were those of a standard SER type given SR Diagram 1553.  These included vans built from the late 1870s to the 1900s, so there are naturally variations.  The earlier ones lack a couple of vents on the side, for instance.  Both early and late examples have drawings, which is ideal.  If choosing one variant to model, the later type might be more versatile, as these would have bee in in service throughout the periods of interest of most people here, whereas the 1870s vintage vans were being withdrawn in the 1900s and 1910s, making the later vans more numerous.

 

Relatively few LCDR brake vans seem to have stayed the course to Grouping  - don't forget, useful as these volumes are, they are concerned with pre-Grouping wagons that made it to 1923 - but also an option to bear in mind.

 

Good luck - I think you have once again achieved a convincing, cost-effective, easy to build kit in a sympathetic material!

 

I have hopes that you will ultimately keep fully employed at least a SE&CR C Class, O Class, O1 and a Brighton C Class, C2X and an E tank or two!

 

EDIT: I have just noticed that Dia.1553 was also Compound's choice of brake van, so, obviously great minds think alike.  

 

Sensible Choices for a Happier Britain!

Edited August 17, 2018 by Edwardian

[RedGemAlchemist]

And now you've lost me again.

[Skinnylinny]

Actually SERKits sell CAD drawings for most of the wagons I mentioned, except, frustratingly, the van. You might need to check with Dan Garrett if you were going to use them for something you were going to sell.

 

I was unaware of that! I may have to get in touch with him on this one - that being said, I'll have a look through the books which are even now winging their way through the post to me!

 

Just a small point about the LBSC van. The bottom of the side is the curb rail, intended to pick up the floor boards, and form the threshold of the door opening, and take the bottom of the door hinges. This is a fairly solid timber beam, around four inches or so square, with a rebate to take the flooring. It is noticeably shallower than the rest of the side planks, which are all the same height. The top of the curb rail lines up with the bottom edge of the corner plate, which is a useful guide to its size, which I haven't been able to find an exact dimension for.

On metal framed wagons, at least on the LBSC, this bottom rail was usuallymuch smaller, appearing to match the thickness of the floor planks. I'm not sure if Smallbrook quite captured this on their model of this rarer type of Brighton van.

That's a good point which I hadn't noticed. Now that you mention it, I can see that on some photos of preserved wagons. Fortunately that's an easy change to make to the kit, and I'll incorporate it! Also thank you for the note regarding metal framed wagons - I'll keep an eye out for that if I do anything on steel underframes. Unfortunately it's unlikely that I'll do that for the foreseeable future as I can't laser-cut channel sections, and RTR wagons don't seem to come in 9'6" or 9'8" wheelbases. This is why I love this forum. Thank you!

[Edwardian]

 RTR wagons don't seem to come in 9'6" or 9'8" wheelbases. This is why I love this forum. Thank you!

 

No, they don't.  A headache where my GER Dia.17, steel u/f, 5-planks are concerned!