Which Train Driver Union?

[highpeakman]

This is a question from someone who has never worked in the rail industry, but has a genuine curiosity about it's workings and the way of everyday life, so forgive me if I have missed the obvious.

 

The current strikes by the RMT union made me think about which union a driver will belong to. I understand, but may be wrong, that drivers would have the choice of joining either the RMT or ASLEF (or not joining any union?). What tend to be the deciding factors in the joining of one union or the other? Does it tend to be a regional, company or depot based or is it purely the personal choice of the driver?

 

Please, I do not want this thread to get in any way political or point scoring about either union (or none) or about the detail of any of the current dispute issues (the latter is covered in other threads). I am just interested to know how the drivers make their selection and, if that is done by choosing the politics of that particular union, then just say that is the reason without going into detail please.

[Classsix T]

AIUI, drivers are catered for by ASLEF, RMT looking after guards and signallers?

 

C6T.

[Rugd1022]

The vast majority of Drivers are ASLEF members, some of the reasons are no doubt political, but a very big reason is it's bargaining power when it comes to negotiating pay and conditions. I first joined ASLEF back in 1983, in those days as a new recruit the depot ASLEF Rep found you very quickly before anyone else could get a look in!

Edited January 9, 2018 by Rugd1022

[royaloak]

Most drivers are represented by ASLEF but some are in the RMT.

 

Although at some depots (especially Southern depots for some strange non political reason) RMT are close to being the dominant drivers Union!

 

<political stuff>

A lot of drivers (including this one) are watching the current DOO disputes with interest with a view of changing Unions,

 

The best thing is to join whichever the representative Union is at your depot.

Edited January 9, 2018 by royaloak

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

This is a question from someone who has never worked in the rail industry, but has a genuine curiosity about it's workings and the way of everyday life, so forgive me if I have missed the obvious.

 

The current strikes by the RMT union made me think about which union a driver will belong to. I understand, but may be wrong, that drivers would have the choice of joining either the RMT or ASLEF (or not joining any union?). What tend to be the deciding factors in the joining of one union or the other? Does it tend to be a regional, company or depot based or is it purely the personal choice of the driver?

 

Please, I do not want this thread to get in any way political or point scoring about either union (or none) or about the detail of any of the current dispute issues (the latter is covered in other threads). I am just interested to know how the drivers make their selection and, if that is done by choosing the politics of that particular union, then just say that is the reason without going into detail please.

 

Unions are very different post Thatcher.

 

At one time all railway workers belonged to either ASLEF or the NUR.  ASLEF was always considered the locomotive drivers union and was a bit elitist. The NUR ( National Union of Railwaymen ) was for any employee that didn't actually drive locomotives. At the time this meant that guards were NOT eligible for ASLEF membership. ASLEF were noted for being quite moderate. I can only remember one national strike called by them. Usually the NUR and ASLEF supported each other in any action taken by not crossing picket lines and suchlike.

 

RMT is a much newer union and has a reputation for militancy based on its erstwhile leader, Bob Crow. He was particularly keen on being the principal transport union and seems to have mopped up most of the varieties of rail, ships and buses.

 

No union at all is an option but in olden days was not considered good form and could result in things like being 'sent to Coventry' where no union member would talk to the non member even socially.

[Fat Controller]

RMT was formed from the NUR and the NUS (National Union of Seamen, not students).

The preference for the NUR on the former SR might have something to do with the way ASLEF treated 'motormen' in the early days of electrification. It tended to consider them as a slightly lower form of life than the traditional footplate grades, meaning they were rich pickings for the NUR.

[Gary H]

Joining one or the other is also a worthwhile option these days for when and if the waste matter should hit the rotating ventilation device for whatever reason, you will have some protection and support!

I dont agree with all their decisions but that is one of the reasons I joined when I did. Good T's&C's being the other.

[royaloak]

There is the old adage that union membership simply means you get a very expensive diary!

 

If that is the case then it is a good thing because it means you havent effed up and needed representation.

Then there is the matter of collective bargaining, you dont think those pay rises are offered out of malevolence benevolence do you?

Edited January 10, 2018 by royaloak

[caradoc]

When I joined BR in 1978 it was a 'closed shop', ie you had to belong to a union whether you wanted to or not. My first job was a Clerical Officer Grade One (CO1), and at that time the inter-union agreements (on what grades could join which Union) meant I could join either the NUR (as it was then) or the Transport Salaried Staffs Association (TSSA); However the person doing the paperwork on that first day only had application forms for the TSSA, so that was who I joined ! Fortunately I never needed the Union to represent or defend me, but I would not have wanted to be without that backup and support.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Different things also apply to light rail systems - the tram drivers here in Nottingham are members of the GMB. 

[Pandora]

It can depend on the recognition of bargaining procedures by the Train Operating Company, ASLEF seems to be the majority, RMT is the minority union for drivers and footplate grades.  There are also "non-poaching" agreements between ASLEF an RMT to avoid civil war between unions.

"Civil War"  between unions is the dream of the TOCS,  divide and conquer would suit management  as they press for implementation of  ill-informed ideas to undermine terms and conditions of footplate staff,  terms and conditions which often came from management think tanks in the first instance,  have proved to be defective, and management wish to bury, 

[big jim]

im in ASLEF but colas only recognise the RMT during pay deals etc, as royaloak says its an expensive diary but should you need help after an incident or whatever they are worth their weight in gold

 

some colas drivers are members of TSSA

 

being able to use thompsons solicitors is also useful, we used them after a non fault car crash when the other driver tried to sue me for a sore neck and they took him to the cleaners all paid for through my subs

 

i finally got my overdue 15 year badge last month

Edited January 9, 2018 by big jim

[Trog]

 

Then there is the matter of collective bargaining, you dont think those pay rises are offered out of malevolence do you?

 

Only the very very small ones.

[Zomboid]

Aren't the drivers on the tube mostly RMT?

[royaloak]

Only the very very small ones.

You mean the ones where they offer 0.25% but with more strings than Pinocchio?

[Arun Sharma]

There is the old adage that union membership simply means you get a very expensive diary!

 

If that is the case then it is a good thing because it means you havent effed up and needed representation.

Then there is the matter of collective bargaining, you dont think those pay rises are offered out of malevolence do you?

Did you mean benevolence or malevolence?

[royaloak]

Did you mean benevolence or malevolence?

Either but benevolence is probably closer.

[Colin_McLeod]

I was approached by the local TSSA rep on my first or second day so that became the union I joined.

[D826]

Just reminds me of my Dad who was in Aslef as a driver in early 70s London Transport (-and one of the last drivers of main line steam for LT - see the book Red Panniers) -

 

NUR - No Use Rushing

 

ASLEF - A's left ma train in the depot man....

 

70s comedy but still amusing.

 

 

Kind regards

 

Matt Wood

[big jim]

No no no, it’s this

 

[jim.snowdon]

Associated Society of Leprechauns, Elves and Fairies?

 

I have nothing against trade unions, as long as they remember that their role is to represent the employees, not play politics or assume the role of guardians of railway safety - that is the responsibility of the railway operators and the ORR, as the regulatory authority, with the final word resting with the courts of justice.

 

You may gather I have no sympathy for either Messrs Cash or Crow.

 

Jim

[phil-b259]

Aren't the drivers on the tube mostly RMT?

 

Correct - which is why strike action by said RMT is so effective there.

[phil-b259]

Associated Society of Leprechauns, Elves and Fairies?

 

I have nothing against trade unions, as long as they remember that their role is to represent the employees, not play politics or assume the role of guardians of railway safety - that is the responsibility of the railway operators and the ORR, as the regulatory authority, with the final word resting with the courts of justice.

 

You may gather I have no sympathy for either Messrs Cash or Crow.

 

Jim

 

But when it is suspected that the Government is using the ORR to play politics themselves, it is unfair to expect the Unions to stay silent.

 

Having said that when responding to such provocation, the Unions also need to pick their battlegrounds wisely if they want  to still be in a position to influence things.....and the RMT is not doing a very good job at that in recent years.

[big jim]

You may gather I have no sympathy for either Messrs Cash or Crow.

 

Jim

You should have SOME sympathy for mr crow, he has been dead for almost 4 years!

[roythebus]

ASLEF used to have a membership of around 28,000 in the early 1970s. I don't know what the current membership is as mine finished when I left BR in 1988.

 

However, when I joined LT as a guard in 1970, I knew about ASLEF and joined them rather than the NUR as guards on LT at the time were in the line of promotion to the footplate. When I joined BR in 1974 my membership of ASLEF continued. Despite having left BR in 1988 I had cause to try to claim for industrial deafness; Thompson solicitors quite happily took up the claim on my behalf, paid for by ASLEF but was later advised that I din't have a good case. It goes to show that union membership has lasting benefits.

 

As for Southern depots, I wouldn't say the Southern was more NUR, rather the opposite. There's odd depots all over the country with a strong NUR membership mostly for historic reasons, but ASLEF has always been the preference for staff in line of promotion to driver.  TSSA has always been for admin and clerical staff, but they had the choice to join the NUR as well.