Formula 1 2018

[richard.h]

The root cause of yesterdays mistake that lost the race for Hamilton is the over reliance on modern technology. The computer and its algorithms said that he had enough of a cushion to cover a safety car being deployed but obviously he didn't.

You cant blame the computer for that, blame the people who programmed it and are blindly heeding it, common sense should tell them that a 12 second gap isn't enough for safe lead in the event of a safety car

[Hobby]

I hear what you are saying, but that, in my view was not the root cause.

 

It was a safety system that allowed a passing move using a pit stop during a safety car deployment that was the root cause... Simply put that should not be allowed to happen.

[Andrew P]

I hear what you are saying, but that, in my view was not the root cause.

 

It was a safety system that allowed a passing move using a pit stop during a safety car deployment that was the root cause... Simply put that should not be allowed to happen.

So in theory, a driver COULD use a drive through in the pit lane to drive faster than on the Race circuit. 

[Zomboid]

The rule might be stupid (I'd say that it is), but you've got to give credit to the team who exploited it. I'm no Ferrari fan, but I'd have been happy if Ricciardo had used the tactic to get the win, so credit to Vettel & Ferrari in this instance, and Mercedes have a bit of self-inflicted embarrassment which I'm sure they'll get over.

[newbryford]

So in theory, a driver COULD use a drive through in the pit lane to drive faster than on the Race circuit. 

 

Not necessarily. (I wonder if drive throughs are allowed during VSC or SC conditions anyway.)

 

What happened was that the time lost for SV's pitstop was less during the VSC than it would have been under normal racing conditions.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Hobby]

 but you've got to give credit to the team who exploited it.

 

Agreed... What worries me is that there's been a fair number of comments here and elsewhere on how daft the situation is but no-one in "authority" (i.e. Liberty Media) have made any attempt to say that it's wrong and should be changed...

 

Which leads you to believe that overtaking moves like this are, in their eyes, all part of the racing which is, to put it mildly, rather sad... F1 over recent years has developed tracks and cars where overtaking is extremely hard to do, and at some tracks well-nigh impossible, but those in charge can't seem to see the obvious that it makes for boring races!! 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Hobby

[newbryford]

Agreed... What worries me is that there's been a fair number of comments here and elsewhere on how daft the situation is but no-one in "authority" (i.e. Liberty Media) have made any attempt to say that it's wrong and should be changed...

 

Which leads you to believe that overtaking moves like this are, in their eyes, all part of the racing which is, to put it mildly, rather sad... F1 over recent years has developed tracks and cars where overtaking is extremely hard to do, and at some tracks well-nigh impossible, but those in charge can't seem to see the obvious that it makes for boring races!! 

 

I would put the blame fairly and squarely at the cars.

 

Mark Webber's post race observations about Lewis struggling with the cooling once he was behind struck a chord.

The car was optimised for front running and didn't like being compromised in dirty/warm air. (I'm sure most cars were optimised for clean air running - otherwise how would they try for a fast lap in quali?)

 

As he said the cars are designed at the absolute limit and it's in pushing the limits, they are so fast. 

 

Similar scenarios were going on further down the field, where the car behind could catch up to the one in front, but once there, there was a stalemate as it couldn't get close enough to pass.

[Andrew P]

I would put the blame fairly and squarely at the cars.

 

Mark Webber's post race observations about Lewis struggling with the cooling once he was behind struck a chord.

The car was optimised for front running and didn't like being compromised in dirty/warm air. (I'm sure most cars were optimised for clean air running - otherwise how would they try for a fast lap in quali?)

 

As he said the cars are designed at the absolute limit and it's in pushing the limits, they are so fast. 

 

Similar scenarios were going on further down the field, where the car behind could catch up to the one in front, but once there, there was a stalemate as it couldn't get close enough to pass.

And was also proved by a almost stagnant Bottas, Quickest Car but hardly any overtaking   .

[Oldddudders]

And, by all accounts, that is how Alonso kept Max behind him. Faster car loses everything in dirty air.

[Andrew P]

Remove ALL WINGS etc and just let them drive a tube with wheels, a standard gearbox and no ABS or Power Steering. 

[royaloak]

How b****y stupid! No driver should be allowed to gain places in those circumstances... Yet again becoming a joke sport.

Drivers have been gaining an advantage when there is a safety car since safety cars were introduced (trying to use it is called strategy), I wonder if your view would have been different if the silver car had gained an advantage over the red one?

 

Personally I think Ferrari bringing Kimi in early (to cause Mercedes to respond) was a brilliant idea and it worked, it could just have easily blown up in their face!

Edited March 26, 2018 by royaloak

[The Blue Streak]

The problem is the same as it has been for several years. F1 sees itself as the cutting edge of technology as far as Motorsport is concerned not as  entertainment.

 

As long as they are allowed to continue designing cars that are aerodynamically perfect in clean air, but utter rubbish in dirty air, then passing in F1 will never get any different.

 

I thought We may have been on the right track a year or so back when wheels and tyres were being made bigger again in the name of Mechanical grip (but which were designed to go off quite quickly). However then they let them keep the multi tiered front wings etc, not only keep them but allow teams to make them more intricate and even more aero sensitive.

 

 

At least the Force India's have decent - ish radiator openings in order to run at a sensible temp mid pack. The Mercs are so small that they overheat as soon as the get within cooee of anything in front of them, quite obviously not designed to run further back than the very front.

Edited March 27, 2018 by The Blue Streak

[OnTheBranchline]

Drivers have been gaining an advantage when there is a safety car since safety cars were introduced (trying to use it is called strategy), I wonder if your view would have been different if the silver car had gained an advantage over the red one?

 

Personally I think Ferrari bringing Kimi in early (to cause Mercedes to respond) was a brilliant idea and it worked, it could just have easily blown up in their face!

 

Silver cars have won enough lately. Last year was the first one in a while where we actually had variety. The only thing that made 2014-2016 somewhat interesting was Rosberg vs Hamilton. If we didn't have that, the Hamilton/Mercedes domination would have been unbearable (worse than the early 2000s Schumacher/Ferrari or the early 2010s Vettel/Red Bull).

Edited March 27, 2018 by OnTheBranchline

[Hobby]

Had the same situation happened on a different circuit, even Monaco, the race outcome would have been different. Max is known for finding overtaking spots where other drivers just can't...

 

On one of the slower cars perhaps, but even he couldn't find a way past another car if it were one of the top 6 and it was running OK without the other driver making a mistake... Max is good at overtaking but there are a couple of other drivers just as good and all of them struggle at the Monaco Procession...

 

 

I wonder if your view would have been different if the silver car had gained an advantage over the red one?

 

No I wouldn't, I'd have said the same thing... Racing should be done out on the track, not in the pits, hence my earlier comments about pit stop minimum times...

Edited March 27, 2018 by Hobby

[Jonboy]

Am I right in thinking this boiled down to Vettel exiting the track and speeding up on the approach to the pits, and the silver team miscalculating the time this would take? If so does the vsc delta cover the pit approach or does it need to extend to include it?

[Oldddudders]

Am I right in thinking this boiled down to Vettel exiting the track and speeding up on the approach to the pits, and the silver team miscalculating the time this would take? If so does the vsc delta cover the pit approach or does it need to extend to include it?

My reading is that there is in effect a set time at each circuit for exiting the track, stopping in the pit and rejoining, assuming a ‘normal’ stop. Mercedes will have this built in to its calculator software. Maybe this was reduced by Vettel, maybe not, but Lewis was on a mandated reduced speed lap throughout Vettel’s stop, so simply wasn’t as far round the circuit as the software predicted when Vettel emerged.

[The Blue Streak]

Ian, My reading is that the sport has been overrun with computer nerds and propeller heads who require a program for everything.

 

If the weathers iffy, simple, stick your head outside and see if it's raining.

 

If there's a prang somewhere then wave double yellows, if a driver fails to slow down at the double yellows, then fine them 10 grand and 10 points. If there are no double yellows in the section you are in - the driver pulls his finger out and gets on with it.

 

If the prang is so bad that double yellows wont cut it, then bring out a proper safety car. If that bunches the field then refer to line 3 and pull your finger out when the green comes out.

 

Virtual safety car - My ar$e.

 

All the best chaps - Ted

[Hobby]

This explains it quite well...

 

[royaloak]

Am I right in thinking this boiled down to Vettel exiting the track and speeding up on the approach to the pits, and the silver team miscalculating the time this would take? If so does the vsc delta cover the pit approach or does it need to extend to include it?

You are correct, Vettel knew the delta only applied to the actual track and not the pit approach so as soon as he was on the pit approach he gunned it big time, he also did the same on the exit, all within the rules.

 

Personally I think Ferrari set Mercedes up by bringing Räikkönen in early knowing Mercedes would respond to it and then hope for a safety car (very common at Melbourne) before Vettels tyres went off, all part of the strategy, and to all those conspiracy theorists about the Haas stopping where it did, would you consider it acceptable if he carried on knowing his front left wheel wasnt attached properly?

I really cannot see a team throwing away 2 good points finished just to help out their engine supplier, can you hand on heart say they would?

Edited March 27, 2018 by royaloak

[The Blue Streak]

What the sport needs is a reduction in Horsepower (and probably dollars) to a level that still remains exciting to watch but with which a  seat of the pants driver can rag the thing at 10 /10ths without fearing a blow up or a grid penalty next race if he does manage to blow  a dirty great hole in the crankcase.

 

But with tyres that will go away if you do fang it too hard.

 

Then Imagine the battles, The Max's of the world ragging the thing to death for 3/4 of the race and getting a gap and then holding off the wily old Fernando's of the world at the end who used a little more cunning and went a little slower but saved rubber for the end.

 

For those of a certain age - think Niki Lauda the wily old fox and a Hard charging Andrea De Cesaris.

[Oldddudders]

You are correct, Vettel knew the delta only applied to the actual track and not the pit approach so as soon as he was on the pit approach he gunned it big time, he also did the same on the exit, all within the rules.

 

Personally I think Ferrari set Mercedes up by bringing Räikkönen in early knowing Mercedes would respond to it and then hope for a safety car (very common at Melbourne) before Vettels tyres went off, all part of the strategy, and to all those conspiracy theorists about the Haas stopping where it did, would you consider it acceptable if he carried on knowing his front left wheel wasnt attached properly?

I really cannot see a team throwing away 2 good points finished just to help out their engine supplier, can you hand on heart say they would?

Sponsorship is everything in the gravy-train of motorsport these days, so Haas making themselves look like donkeys to aid Ferrari won’t wash, as their sponsors want a success, not a lampoon.

[The Blue Streak]

Sponsorship is everything in the gravy-train of motorsport these days, so Haas making themselves look like donkeys to aid Ferrari won’t wash, as their sponsors want a success, not a lampoon.

 

Completely agree, You only had to look at the faces of the Haas team, to see that they wanted badly to get a result, those pit boys were gutted.

The conspiracy theory just doesn't fly with me I'm afraid.

[Hobby]

You are correct, Vettel knew the delta only applied to the actual track and not the pit approach so as soon as he was on the pit approach he gunned it big time, he also did the same on the exit, all within the rules.

 

 

Two things. Firstly surely the slip roads to the pit entrance is classified as part of the racing circuit and therefore subject to the same restrictions under safety car rules. Secondly looking at the plan of the circuit i doubt the slip roads are long enough to give him enough to make up that amount of time, gunning it or not I doubt he'd gain more than a fraction of a second. I think that YouTuble clip explains it better.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Hobby

[royaloak]

Two things. Firstly surely the slip roads to the pit entrance is classified as part of the racing circuit and therefore subject to the same restrictions under safety car rules. Secondly looking at the plan of the circuit i doubt the slip roads are long enough to give him enough to make up that amount of time, gunning it or not I doubt he'd gain more than a fraction of a second. I think that YouTuble clip explains it better.

It does, but in a sport where half a second can make the difference between winning and being 4th every little helps.

[Hobby]

Yes, but the point I was making is that the gain he might have made would not have made enough difference in this case. Gunning it for such a short period would not have made up enough time as the entrance slip roads are not long enough for any significant time gain.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Hobby