Cement/Aggregate business in the 80's-90's (and a some BR questions)

[njee20]

The Brett PHAs were still being used to Purley until earlier this year. Presume the ‘other’ wagons referred to above would be HOAs? Revolution are doing a crowdfunded model if you want some of those OP.

 

These days you’ve also got Yeoman JHAs delivering, no idea how long that flow’s been going though. I’m also struggling to think of an appropriate JHA model. Worsley Works do one, bit it’s the Hanson/ARC LTF variant.

[SED Freightman]

for Your wagon fleet, you could run anything that Foster Yeoman use between Merehead and London, so in the mid-late 1980s, PGA 4 wheel hoppers, POA 4 wheel opens, ex-iron ore bogie boxes (PTA),

 

There are lots of useful photos on this site including the Brett Marine hoppers used on the Cliffe/ Isle of Grain flows

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/poaggregate

 

In terms of locos, post 1987, freight sectors had specific allocations so look for those based in / around London or on the main inward flows (eg OC, SF, SL and EH) plus locos working out of Westbury.

 

Prior to the early 1990's when Day & Sons (Brentford) Ltd took over the former Charrington coal depot, only the Brett PHA's (latterly recoded to JHA's) would have been seen on aggregate traffic, the limestone traffic ex Merehead was conveyed in Foster Yeoman open wagons (O&K JYA type originally).  There were no means of discharging hopper wagons (other than the Brett wagons) until the current BDU (Bottom Discharge Unit) was commissioned in 2006.

 

With regard to locos, the Brett trains were originally worked by pairs of 73's but had switched to pairs of 33's by 1990, coal traffic looks to have been diagrammed for class 33 haulage until introduction of the Speedlink Coal Network when class 37's took over.  The Foster Yeoman trains would have seen class 56 / 59 / 60 haulage until such time as the class 66's appeared, these also now work the Brett trains.

[hmrspaul]

I don't know if it is any help but here is a photo of the wagons at the Cliffe loading terminal.

 

 

ac Cliffe Brett Marine terminal bogie wagons 18th March 78 C3725.jpg

Cliffe Brett Marine terminal bogie wagons 18th March 78 C3725

 

 

David

And a  collection of photos of them. in 1978, 1988 and 92. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brettaggregate

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

The wagons you are thinking of operated from Angerstein Wharf and conveyed sea dredged aggregate to terminals at Paddington New Yard, Park Royal, Kings Cross Goods, Luton Limbury Road and Battersea (Stewarts Lane). They were originally operated by Murphy (?), then Marcon, then Tarmac, before being sold to EWS, however through all this they continued to convey the same traffic from Angerstein Wharf.

 

The Marinex / Brett wagons primarily operated from Cliffe to Purley and Salfords, but were also used to the Bat & Ball Redland Sdg and very occasionally to the Allington ARC Sdg.

That's these http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/marconpha

Paul

[Lacathedrale]

Interesting - so at what point could I expect to start seeing 37's? I guess mid ~80's?

[SED Freightman]

Interesting - so at what point could I expect to start seeing 37's? I guess mid ~80's?

 

In 1985 the coal traffic was still conveyed on Speedlink services and Purley was served by an SX trip to / from Redhill shewn to be worked by a diesel loco, so no doubt a class 33.  Traffic was transferred to the dedicated Speedlink Coal Network based on a hub at Didcot Yard from late 1986 / early 1987 I believe (cannot locate relevant WTT at present) initially services may still have been worked by a class 33.  Certainly by late 1988 the service would have been worked by a class 37, an arrangement that would continue until the service ended. The WTT commencing 15/05/89 shows coal for Purley being conveyed from Didcot Yd to Hove Yd on TThSo and then returning on the Hove Yd to Southall W Jn (TThO) or Didcot Yd (SO) services which called at Purley en route.

 

Since the coal for Purley was conveyed in HEA wagons there must presumably have been a discharge hopper beneath one of the coal sidings, does anyone know where this was located as I had no cause to visit the yard prior to closure of the coal depot ?

[Fat Controller]

I believe a lorry-mounted conveyor could be used with the HEA, obviating the need for a pit.

[The Bigbee Line]

I believe a lorry-mounted conveyor could be used with the HEA, obviating the need for a pit.

I think a HEA would need a pit.  I know Ashford West Yard and Hove had new conveyors installed for hoppers when the succeeded the Opens in domestic coal traffic.  The Ashford conveyor was later used for stone after the cessation of the domestic coal traffic by rail.  The belts were not really suitable for stone, but did a turn.  Ashford also had a capstan installed at the same time as the new conveyor for shunting wagons.  I seem to remember Purley being mentioned as getting a mew conveyor as well.  All funded by a grant from the government.

[SED Freightman]

I think a HEA would need a pit.  I know Ashford West Yard and Hove had new conveyors installed for hoppers when the succeeded the Opens in domestic coal traffic.  The Ashford conveyor was later used for stone after the cessation of the domestic coal traffic by rail.  The belts were not really suitable for stone, but did a turn.  Ashford also had a capstan installed at the same time as the new conveyor for shunting wagons.  I seem to remember Purley being mentioned as getting a mew conveyor as well.  All funded by a grant from the government.

 

I have found reference to Section 8 Grants being made to PD Fuels in respect of facilities at Ashford and Hove but have yet to find any details of grants being paid to Charringtons, either specifically for Purley or in respect of a group of terminals, although this does not mean there were none. Therefore I am still none the wiser as to whether or not there was a discharge hopper pit at Purley. I have also searched, without success, for older photos showing HTV's at Purley which would have indicated the existence of a hopper pit, so maybe some sort of road mounted device was used as suggested by the Fat Controller.

[Lacathedrale]

A 33 or 37 infront of some HEAs and 21T minerals as so may not be 100% accurate but it seems to get a decent way there: http://southpelawjunction.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/37-094-Consett-10-5-82-shunts-coal-into-depot.jpg

 

Revisiting this after some dubiously advised loco purchases (may or may not be directly related to above) and just wanted to confirm where the coal siding was? Would it have been using the same hopper and conveyor system? I'm just trying to visualise it, as right now it seems pretty compact, front to back:

 

- Cripple siding (was this where Charringtons was?)

- Unloading track

- Runaround track

- Engineering track

 

If it's somewhere modelgenic I'd like to include it, and if not I'm going to toss a coin as to whether I put it on what I'm denoting as 'the runaround track'. For some kind of 'purpose' to shunting I can imagine the requirement for a particular job to take away the empties from both the Brett and Charrington businesses while ensuring the loads are replaced in the same spot. Randomised selection (I admit it will probably be stretching credulity to assume they weren't all unloaded immediately and/or sequentially but still!). Using the engineer's siding for temporary space, as well as a nice place to put Grampus/Sealion/etc/etc. 

 

Should I also assume that the big conveyor building (and it's associated overhead distrubition belt) and opposite cement mixing building near the station weren't in evidence back then? I ask because they would make nice flanking objects for the layout and I might include them anyway!

Edited December 28, 2017 by Lacathedrale

[black and decker boy]

A 33 or 37 infront of some HEAs and 21T minerals as so may not be 100% accurate but it seems to get a decent way there: http://southpelawjunction.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/37-094-Consett-10-5-82-shunts-coal-into-depot.jpg!

HEAs were air brake only (may have been through vac piped when built but not in mid-late 80s) , 16&21T mineral wagons or HTV hoppers were vacuum braked only. They wouldn’t run in mixed rakes in mid-late 80s.

 

Same for engineers wagons, air only types wouldn’t run with vacuum only types. Dual brake or through piped wagons could run in mixed rakes. Both types still in use in mid - late 80s.

[Lacathedrale]

That's a good point and something to definitely bear in mind - what are those in the photo I've linked? it was captioned as 'HEA and open minerals' 

[Fat Controller]

That's a good point and something to definitely bear in mind - what are those in the photo I've linked? it was captioned as 'HEA and open minerals' 

It's a mixture of HTV, MXV and MCV

[SED Freightman]

A 33 or 37 infront of some HEAs and 21T minerals as so may not be 100% accurate but it seems to get a decent way there: http://southpelawjunction.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/37-094-Consett-10-5-82-shunts-coal-into-depot.jpg

 

Revisiting this after some dubiously advised loco purchases (may or may not be directly related to above) and just wanted to confirm where the coal siding was? Would it have been using the same hopper and conveyor system? I'm just trying to visualise it, as right now it seems pretty compact, front to back:

 

- Cripple siding (was this where Charringtons was?)

- Unloading track

- Runaround track

- Engineering track

 

If it's somewhere modelgenic I'd like to include it, and if not I'm going to toss a coin as to whether I put it on what I'm denoting as 'the runaround track'. For some kind of 'purpose' to shunting I can imagine the requirement for a particular job to take away the empties from both the Brett and Charrington businesses while ensuring the loads are replaced in the same spot. Randomised selection (I admit it will probably be stretching credulity to assume they weren't all unloaded immediately and/or sequentially but still!). Using the engineer's siding for temporary space, as well as a nice place to put Grampus/Sealion/etc/etc. 

 

Should I also assume that the big conveyor building (and it's associated overhead distrubition belt) and opposite cement mixing building near the station weren't in evidence back then? I ask because they would make nice flanking objects for the layout and I might include them anyway!

 

The coal depot was in the large area now occupied by the aggregate stockpiles and storage bins, all the current sidings, hopper house, storage bays, etc. date from the 2005/6 rebuilding, with the exception of the current cripple siding which used to be the entrance line to the coal depot.

 

According to a diagram I have which is dated 2002, the siding layout prior to rebuilding, working away from the main line, was as follows :- Engineers Sdg (220 yds), Brett Marine Siding (120 yds), Siding (185 yds), Siding (225 yds), Cripple Siding (70 yds) and Siding (225 yds).  The latter four sidings all connected to what is now the Cripple Siding.

 

I have still found no evidence to suggest that the Charringtons coal depot was equipped with a discharge hopper so would have to assume that some sort of mobile conveyor device that slotted under the wagon was used for discharging HEA's during the days of the relatively short lived Speedlink Coal Network service.  Coal wagons were not unloaded in the Brett siding, in general coal and aggregate do not mix and locations where this has been tried ended up spending considerable time and effort cleaning conveyor belts to avoid cross contamination of products.

 

The current (post 2005/6) layout is certainly much more compact from a modelling perspective but it does only cater for aggregate traffic, whereas if space permitted some of the other sidings to be modelled then both the Brett and coal / Foster Yeoman traffic could be accommodated.

[Lacathedrale]

The pictures in this post earlier show an overhead conveyor, fence and aggregate piles dated 1984: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129304-cementaggregate-business-in-the-80s-90s-and-a-some-br-questions/&do=findComment&comment=2970459 so I gather the coal sidings were beyond and behind?

 

In my realisation of the layout in model form, I've simply added the coal siding to the closure of the runaround loop on the Brett siding. Having a mobile conveyor could be a fun modelling project, but does mean that the big aggregate office is going to have to play a more prominent role. I don't suppose you know of any photos of the depot during this period? Just a scant glance of the conveyor (as above) isn't a huge amount to go on. 

 

Here's a link to the layout thread, for what it's worth: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129529-purley-sidings-prototypical-2mmfs-in-5-x-1/

[Oldddudders]

A Tonne is the correct designation in the UK under the metric system (being 1000kg) and is the designation used by Network Rail within Group Standards.

How interesting. Neither Network Rail nor Group Standards existed at the time I was quoting, the early ‘70s. And the tonne was then unknown in the UK.

[black and decker boy]

How interesting. Neither Network Rail nor Group Standards existed at the time I was quoting, the early ‘70s. And the tonne was then unknown in the UK.

Indeed my interpretation of your post was perhaps a little off centre (as then clarified by Fat Controller) so my apologies for that. Being a product of the 70s, imperial isn’t a unit of measure to me, it’s the name of 37049!

Happy New Year :-)

[Rivercider]

Here is a photo from 1981, (pre Speedlink Coal Network days), of a class 33 hauled train headed for Purley

with what looks like four MCV/MXVs.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126254131@N05/31779298065/in/photolist-TEgcao-SS2VSN-Qqed9a-PsMqwt-ExZWAi-P5PFJ1-P5PFC9-NXugsb-NXufKE-A86YnK-s7kXzJ-s2d7jg

 

cheers

[SED Freightman]

The pictures in this post earlier show an overhead conveyor, fence and aggregate piles dated 1984: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129304-cementaggregate-business-in-the-80s-90s-and-a-some-br-questions/&do=findComment&comment=2970459 so I gather the coal sidings were beyond and behind?

 

In my realisation of the layout in model form, I've simply added the coal siding to the closure of the runaround loop on the Brett siding. Having a mobile conveyor could be a fun modelling project, but does mean that the big aggregate office is going to have to play a more prominent role. I don't suppose you know of any photos of the depot during this period? Just a scant glance of the conveyor (as above) isn't a huge amount to go on. 

 

Here's a link to the layout thread, for what it's worth: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129529-purley-sidings-prototypical-2mmfs-in-5-x-1/

 

Yes, you are correct, the coal depot and the later Day & Sons grab discharge aggregate yard are behind the old Brett Aggregates stockbays seen in the photo.  The new stockbay wall is further back away from the main line.

 

Unfortunately I have no photos of the terminal, but I have seen some blurb from one of the construction contractors which I think had a photo or two of the new hopper house, I will try and find a link.  The photos below are of a small aggregate hopper / conveyor arrangement formerly operated by Lafarge at Tallington Sidings, they may give you some ideas for the coal discharge area.

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck with the model.

[SED Freightman]

Here is a photo from 1981, (pre Speedlink Coal Network days), of a class 33 hauled train headed for Purley

with what looks like four MCV/MXVs.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126254131@N05/31779298065/in/photolist-TEgcao-SS2VSN-Qqed9a-PsMqwt-ExZWAi-P5PFJ1-P5PFC9-NXugsb-NXufKE-A86YnK-s7kXzJ-s2d7jg

 

cheers

 

Looks to be 6D79 1250 (MWFO) Norwood Down Yd to Purley Yd, although the headcode should be 7G !  At least my theory of there being no coal discharge hopper at Purley continues to hold good as these wagons would all be grab discharged.

 

Sorry, the headcode in the photo is correct, it did not change from 3C to 7G until the timetable change on 05/10/81 !

Edited December 31, 2017 by SED Freightman

[Lacathedrale]

Does grab discharge mean with a crane/shovel?

[Fat Controller]

Does grab discharge mean with a crane/shovel?

It's a two-piece bucket which hangs on the end of a 360-degree excavator. This'll give you the general idea:- https://www.verstegen.net/grabs/clamshell-grabs/

I have seen single-piece excavator buckets (without the normal teeth) being used, but this involves the digger being on a bit of raised ground to enable the operator to see what they're doing. I've been told by someone who managed such a terminal that a decent couple of operators were quicker, and more thorough, than hopper discharge.

[SED Freightman]

Does grab discharge mean with a crane/shovel?

 

Grab discharge would be with a type of clamshell bucket lowered into the wagon which does what it says on the tin, a shovel is more like a big version of a JCB, with a front bucket used for digging material from stockbays and tipping it into lorries or hoppers.

[Rivercider]

Looks to be 6D79 1250 (MWFO) Norwood Down Yd to Purley Yd, although the headcode should be 7G !  At least my theory of there being no coal discharge hopper at Purley continues to hold good as these wagons would all be grab discharged.

How was Purley served after 1981, presumably Norwood Down Yd ceased to be a freight yard soon after 1981?

I have a copy of the Speedlink Train and trip services dated May 1982, and can see no reference to any service to Purley at all,

from any of Willesden/Acton/Hoo Jn/Dover, by which time I assume vacuum braked services had ceased?

 

cheers

[SED Freightman]

It's a two-piece bucket which hangs on the end of a 360-degree excavator. This'll give you the general idea:- https://www.verstegen.net/grabs/clamshell-grabs/

I have seen single-piece excavator buckets (without the normal teeth) being used, but this involves the digger being on a bit of raised ground to enable the operator to see what they're doing. I've been told by someone who managed such a terminal that a decent couple of operators were quicker, and more thorough, than hopper discharge.

Hopper discharge is ideal for terminals with large throughput, however they are limited by the speed at which the conveyor system can clear the hopper pit, the opening of wagon bottom doors needs to be controlled accordingly to prevent an excessive build up of material. It can be very embarrassing to have to manually clear tonnes, or formerly tons, of material in order to get the conveyors running again. The larger modern terminals now sometimes have the facility for a Bobcat type excavator to enter the hopper pit to assist in such circumstancies. Use of an excavator with a single bucket is not the way to go if at all possible, although I did once get two MGR hoppers unloaded at Hither Green by this method although it was a painfully slow experience. Modern grabs have a cab which raises up on a hydraulic arm so that the operator can see inside the wagon without the need to construct a raised platform beside the track. I can certainly vouch for the skill of some grab operators, it is quite remarkable how little material is left on the floor and in the corners of open box wagons, in my experience RFS were the best (but there are of course other contractors). The quickest means of discharging hoppers is to run them over a bridge with space below for a trainload of material, Redlands had some terminals like this, and I have personally seen the Brett train of 18 x 102t wagons emptied in 16 minutes while drawing continuously forward at slow speed, not something you could acheive with hopper or grab discharge (obviously not the latter with Brett wagons).

Edited December 30, 2017 by SED Freightman