OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Harlequin]

2 minutes ago, coeurdelyon said:

Hi,

FYI The smoke box door fitted to 5320 in G W R livery is taken from a photograph showing no smoke box door with a number plate and without outside steam pipes, so we are correct and no replacement door is necessary

See attached photograph

 

 

Thanks Richard but the photo of the model of 5320 posted by Robin above (courtesy of Cheltenham Models) shows her in GWR livery with a BR numberplate and shedcode plate on the smokebox door.

 

So, is that a photo of a pre-production version where the wrong smokebox door has been fitted by mistake?

 

[Oldddudders]

Your prototype photo shows no smokebox numberplate - exactly as we might expect. The official photo of your model of 5320 clearly shows a blank BR-style numberplate on the smokebox door. This is people's concern. 

[coeurdelyon]

Hello, 

The factory have added the number to the buffer beam correctly but also fitted the number plate door ( not printed) incorrectly, we will look at getting some plain doors from China. but they are currently on vacation so it will be a while before these can be received.

[John Isherwood]

1 hour ago, coeurdelyon said:

Hi,

FYI The smoke box door fitted to 5320 in G W R livery is taken from a photograph showing no smoke box door with a number plate and without outside steam pipes, so we are correct and no replacement door is necessary

See attached photograph

 

 

Not quite following this - the Dapol model in question HAS a numberplate and is in GWR livery.

 

Please explain.

 

CJI.

[BenL]

1 hour ago, coeurdelyon said:

Hi,

FYI The smoke box door fitted to 5320 in G W R livery is taken from a photograph showing no smoke box door with a number plate and without outside steam pipes, so we are correct and no replacement door is necessary

See attached photograph

 

Good to see the prototype pic. Is that a flush riveted tender rather than one with the exposed rivet heads as on the model? The GWR appears central as one would expect on a flush sided tender, rather than off set as on a tender with exposed rivet heads. The pics of the model from Cheltenham Model Centre appear to show the GWR offset behind the rivets on one side and in front on the other, when the usual practice was the former.

[57xx]

Deleted: didn't finish reading the thread.

Edited February 5 by 57xx

[John Isherwood]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Not quite following this - the Dapol model in question HAS a numberplate and is in GWR livery.

 

Please explain.

 

CJI.

 

So - if I read correctly the recent postings from what I assume to be a Dapol representative (coeurdelyon) - Dapol only became aware that their factory had fitted the wrong smokebox door to their GWR moguls when it was pointed out, today, in this thread.

 

Given that at least one (non-Dapol?) photo of a production batch model has been posted in this thread prior to that, one is left to wonder what, or if, QC inspections took place prior to distribution.

 

CJI.

[Steamport Southport]

On 04/02/2024 at 12:12, The Stationmaster said:

From a quick scan down te RCTS lists it looks as if most of the post-war survivors had outside steam pipes although a number without a outside steam pipes survived in that state until wthdrawal in the 1950s.

 

Conversion to outside steam pipes, with the related renewal of the cylinders, began in 1931/32 according to the RCTS lists but seems to have been done very slowly over the first few years.  Virtually all of the  engines (4300 -4320) with the original short frames/cab were withdrawn in the late 1930s but 4320 survived, in original form, until the beginning of 1949 while 4303 with outside steam pipes lasted until late 1952

 

 At a quick count 55 engines without outside steam pipes remained in traffic after WWII with a handful making it to the early 1960s.  A maximum of c.167 were running with outside steam pipes post WWII but of these 90 were converted post war including those donen in the 1950s;  25 of them had been done by the GWR prior to nationalisation.  Thus in the GWR post war period the number with outside steam pipes a was c.102, including the ones converted in that period.

 

So for post war GWR, by the end, those with outside steam pipes almost outnumbered by 2 to 1 those which didn't have outside steam pipes

 

I think they were still planning on rebuilding the first 200 into Granges and Manors so they were slow to get the outside steam pipes and replacement cylinders.

 

I also believe they had planned on changing the cabs on the ones that were staying as Moguls to the 93XX style.

 

All shelved due to WWII and then Nationalisation.

 

 

 

Jason

[Coach bogie]

I would like to recommend the David Andrews book on the moguls. Details of every locomotive. with images and description of all the variations/modifications. I had to borrow a friend's copy for years until I found a signed copy in a charity shop.

 

There is one on eBay at the moment

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305063111671?epid=90960035&hash=item47072dabf7:g:SFcAAOSw~lBk0nKp

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

[BenL]

5 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

I would like to recommend the David Andrews book on the moguls. Details of every locomotive. with images and description of all the variations/modifications. I had to borrow a friend's copy for years until I found a signed copy in a charity shop.

 

There is one on eBay at the moment

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305063111671?epid=90960035&hash=item47072dabf7:g:SFcAAOSw~lBk0nKp

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

Very much agree Mike though I’ve just had a relatively quick look through and can’t find any mention of the apparent switch from the higher more curved cab roof (as on the current Dapol release) to the lower less curved version (as on the previous Dapol release) at some point in the development of the moguls…

[Miss Prism]

BRdatabase shows a list of steam-pipe fitting dates.

 

[Hal Nail]

10 hours ago, BenL said:

can’t find any mention of the apparent switch from the higher more curved cab roof

Ive never seen any mention of the prototype cabs being swapped.

 

The photo of 4301 in the post which you originally mentioned as noticing the higher roof, is one of the first 20 which which were built with, and retained, a different cab.

 

I don't know if the Dapol cab is actually any different to to the first run - could just be the angle of the photos.

 

 

 

[Mikkel]

 

6 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

I don't know if the Dapol cab is actually any different to to the first run - could just be the angle of the photos.

 

From the Dapol website:

 

"New cab with higher and shorter roof"

 

"Porthole cab windows above the firebox – where appropriate"

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/blogs/news/oo-gauge-43xx-mogul-decorated-samples

 

[Hal Nail]

9 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

From the Dapol website:

 

"New cab with higher and shorter roof"

 

"Porthole cab windows above the firebox – where appropriate"

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/blogs/news/oo-gauge-43xx-mogul-decorated-samples

 

Thanks, that explains why the question is being asked but unless anyone can confirm otherwise, I didn't think they were actually different, other than the initial 20?

[Harlequin]

19 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Thanks, that explains why the question is being asked but unless anyone can confirm otherwise, I didn't think they were actually different, other than the initial 20?

If you look at photo catalogues it's clear that very many more than the first 20 had high cab roofs.

For instance, here's a lovely portrait of 4388:

 

Edited February 6 by Harlequin

[Miss Prism]

Those weight diagrams in Russell that do show a cab height dimension (and the Templer drawing for the late side-window locos (9300–9319) of 1932) are all 12' 10 7/8" - say 51.6mm in 4mm.

 

I'm not yet convinced there were different cab heights and lengths for the main sequence.

 

Portholes were still being incorporated in the 1925-build Moguls. (Which is very late, and after porthole removal had commenced on other classes!) Maybe Stephensons had the cab fronts already cut.

 

Rooves on some of the Churchward prairies were being lowered after the early-1930s, which made them look more like the 61xx. I've no idea why those prairie rooves were lowered.

 

 

[Pteremy]

Andrews (p33) specifies a revised roof from 5390 onwards - height reduced by 3 7/8  inches and length increased by 6 inches.

[Miss Prism]

Interesting, that dates it from 1920 (lot 211). So there should be a weight diagram for those changed dimensions, or at least a new cab fittings modification drawing.

 

[BenL]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

Andrews (p33) specifies a revised roof from 5390 onwards - height reduced by 3 7/8  inches and length increased by 6 inches.

Very well found! P33 in my version of Andrews (original 1985 edition) doesn’t have this information - was a later updated version published?

 

I still wonder if some pre-5390 locos were converted to the later cab style? In my version of Andrews, on p34 there’s a picture of 5380 with what to me looks like the later flatter roof, esp when compared to the picture of 4363 immediately below.

 

Mind you, the difference in roof profile is sometimes harder to spot than one might think, and seems less pronounced as it looks on the two Dapol versions - as was pointed out earlier in the thread, one has to wonder if what appears to be a too great an angle from the front to the rear of the firebox exaggerates the cab height on the latest version.

Edited February 6 by BenL

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

Andrews (p33) specifies a revised roof from 5390 onwards - height reduced by 3 7/8  inches and length increased by 6 inches.

Interesting that it's only a few locos after the motion bracket style changed.

 

Rail online has good photos of several locos either side of that change. 5392 in particular does look as though the cab roof is fractionally lower compared to the firebox but it's pretty marginal.

 

Not sure the roof looks any flatter - just the cab generally looks more squat. Hard to tell if its imaginary having read about it!

 

My recollection is the mainline loco came with some notes about the cab variations but I've long since got rid of mine.

Edited February 6 by Hal Nail

[57xx]

15 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

I would like to recommend the David Andrews book on the moguls. Details of every locomotive. with images and description of all the variations/modifications. I had to borrow a friend's copy for years until I found a signed copy in a charity shop.

 

There is one on eBay at the moment

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305063111671?epid=90960035&hash=item47072dabf7:g:SFcAAOSw~lBk0nKp

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

That one went quick, luckily there are actually plenty of other copies on there (although 1 more less now).

[Pteremy]

3 hours ago, BenL said:

Very well found! P33 in my version of Andrews (original 1985 edition) doesn’t have this information - was a later updated version published?

 

I think mine is the 1985 version - see the 9th line up from the bottom of the second column.

[BenL]

29 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

 

I think mine is the 1985 version - see the 9th line up from the bottom of the second column.

Oh my word, yes, there it is! Thank you @Pteremy, I really must book that eye test!

[gwrrob]

It does look like it's the whole batch are fitted with an incorrect door as seen by this Rail's example.

 

 

 

[Fair Oak Junction]

Well, that seems distinctly sub-optimal.