RMweb Premium njee20 Posted November 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2018 The representative told me that they were to scale and to engineering drawings, claiming that the ground signals have got much smaller over the years, they I think we've agreed is the opposite to what has actually happened. They even tried to explain to me that the signals getting smaller is the reason for them being mounted at drivers eye level now..... He also revealed they are going to be doing more ground signals in future and possible even main aspect signals....I don't hold out much hope.... Do you know they're wrong? You imply so, but as I recall your knowledge is all the last 5 years or so? Seems a bit out of order to basically suggest they're lying... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grovenor Posted November 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2018 Do you know they're wrong? You imply so, but as I recall your knowledge is all the last 5 years or so? Seems a bit out of order to basically suggest they're lying... The correct dimensions were given above, the DCC concepts GPLs are oversize, and i started working with them in 1965, is that far enough back for you? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) Do you know they're wrong? You imply so, but as I recall your knowledge is all the last 5 years or so? Seems a bit out of order to basically suggest they're lying... Not only Simon's opinion. Others with combined experience of several hundred years think the same. Edit Beaten to it by one of them. Edited November 28, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted November 29, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2018 I feel an etch and/or 3D print coming on! Now to find an accurate drawing and some small coloured leds or gows. I'll get some scale ones if it kills me! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted November 29, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2018 Just don’t get the same accurate drawings DCC Concepts used 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) Do you know they're wrong? You imply so, but as I recall your knowledge is all the last 5 years or so? Seems a bit out of order to basically suggest they're lying... I don't think they are knowingly lying and I didn't mean to imply that, I just think they have either misunderstood the drawings or have been given the wrong information. Simon Edited November 29, 2018 by St. Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 29, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2018 Considering the available space in the 12" to the foot world, ground signals are designed to fit in the 6-foot, for example in an extreme case at a crossover between platforms. Assumptions for calculation in this situation based on the old MOT clearances Track centres :- 3400mm. Gauge :- 1432mm. Min. Clearance structure to static vehicle below 1000mm :- 730mm each side Available space between tracks = 3400 - 1432 - (730*2) = 508mm Converting this to the 4mm world 508 / 76.2 = 6.66mm Have they just used the space between the maximum vehicle size which doesn't allow for sway? This is 50mm each side at below 1000mm. That would give a 608mm space or 7.98mm at 4mm scale 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 Hi, I did have a much closer look at the square fibre optic type and they seem to be much finer, smaller and thinner, plus have white lights instead of yellow of the triangular version. My opinion of the square versions being overscale came from judging by photos, but I think they might be more acceptable in scale. Does anyone have an information on the size of the real things? Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2018 I've not found a drawing for the Signal House 4-hole fibre optic one, seems to have been abandoned. Tried my usual ways of archive searching and got redirected to an 'investment' advisor in Nigeria and a house of dubious pleasures in New York. As an aside The VMS one is 430mm wide and 350mm high excluding the feet according to their catalogue. The one with filament lamps made by Westinghouse shown in the 2002 catalogue as being to BRS-SE160 series drawings is 437mm wide and 410mm high. This looks the same as the one made by Aldridge for Australia and the Far East. The disc on a BR Standard (ex-LMS) mechanical ground signal is 394mm diameter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) I've not found a drawing for the Signal House 4-hole fibre optic one, seems to have been abandoned. Tried my usual ways of archive searching and got redirected to an 'investment' advisor in Nigeria and a house of dubious pleasures in New York. As an aside The VMS one is 430mm wide and 350mm high excluding the feet according to their catalogue. The one with filament lamps made by Westinghouse shown in the 2002 catalogue as being to BRS-SE160 series drawings is 437mm wide and 410mm high. This looks the same as the one made by Aldridge for Australia and the Far East. The disc on a BR Standard (ex-LMS) mechanical ground signal is 394mm diameter. The DCC Concepts dimensioned diagram show them as ~7.50mm which equates to 570mm, so they are almost 50% EDIT: 'njee20' has calculated that they are 32% overscale. Shame, I would have really liked to use them on my depot layout. Simon Edited December 1, 2018 by St. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dougjuk Posted December 1, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) Well I have used them on my layout and they do not look wrong at all. I have cut the base into the cork and everything seems fine. I still do not think they are big enough for O gauge. Rule 1 applies. Edited December 1, 2018 by Dougjuk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted December 1, 2018 Author Share Posted December 1, 2018 Well I have used them on my layout and they do not look wrong at all. I have cut the base into the cork and everything seems fine. I still do not think they are big enough for O gauge. Rule 1 applies. Hi, Would you mind positing a photo, it would be interesting to see them installed on a layout to see how they look. They maybe overscale, but it may look better on a a layout... I took this photo this afternoon at Portsmouth and they are quite chunky:: Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 1, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 1, 2018 Even if they're the same size as the VMS ones the model would be 32% overscale, which is not "almost 50%" IMO, but as no one seems to know exactly how big they are it seems a bit moot. I'd agree that the prototype looks wider than the 430mm of the VMS equivalent. I'm all for accuracy, but if you crave millimetre perfect fidelity why aren't you just building your own? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted December 1, 2018 Author Share Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) Even if they're the same size as the VMS ones the model would be 32% overscale, which is not "almost 50%" IMO, but as no one seems to know exactly how big they are it seems a bit moot. I'd agree that the prototype looks wider than the 430mm of the VMS equivalent. I'm all for accuracy, but if you crave millimetre perfect fidelity why aren't you just building your own? Hi, I only did a rough calc, my apologies for getting it wrong, I have now updated my post. I don't think they are wider than the VMS ones judging by the size of the ID plate, they can't be much wider otherwise they would be foul of gauge. But still, it has been proved by CR signals and Absolute Aspects that position light signals can be made to work and to scale, although admittedly they are both more expensive. I know that to make them financially viable, they might have to be slightly overscale but I wouldn't expect that much, particularly from DCC concepts who have done wonders with miniaturized rolling stock lamps, so to be 32% overscale is a bit silly. I'm not looking for perfect millimeter accuracy (as I said, they looked finer when I looked at the samples on the bare demonstration layout at Warley), but I think most people would be quite angry if Bachmann or Hornby produced a loco that was 32% overscale, I don't see why it should be any different for things such as signals. If I had the skills to produce them myself (I've tried and I don't), then I would. If they look okay on a scenic model, then I might well buy them, but I want to see them on a model before I make the choice. Simon Edited December 3, 2018 by St. Simon 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dougjuk Posted December 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 4, 2018 Hi, Would you mind positing a photo, it would be interesting to see them installed on a layout to see how they look. They maybe overscale, but it may look better on a a layout... I took this photo this afternoon at Portsmouth and they are quite chunky:: Figure 48B.JPG Simon Hi Simon, Yes of course, will also include a shot of me standing next to a real one on the DFR. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dougjuk Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2018 Here is a couple more shots. Here is a couple more shots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroborus Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Interesting. The photo of you with it is very helpful. They look possibly a fraction on the large size, but nothing too noticeable 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2018 They don't look too bad but as its a bit of an effort to clear them it kind of puts me off as in reality its a simple switch or lever Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Is it just a 'trick of the light' but to my mind the red+white display looks like red+yellow ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroborus Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 its yellow. see my pic on page2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 They don't look too bad but as its a bit of an effort to clear them it kind of puts me off as in reality its a simple switch or lever Hi, You can use a DPDT switch, but yes it would simpler if they were three wire. It also makes it quite difficult to control from a micro-processor for an interlocking as I was planning to do, I know that there are DPDT relays for Arduinos and Micro-processors, but they aren't that common and they are expensive. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 its yellow. see my pic on page2 A pity they can't provide a proper white LED then :-( 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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