Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[BoD]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

the wagons can bump and lurch all they like

It’s what wagons do.

[LNER4479]

Exactly 😄

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Cruel close up? I've tried to prioritise it for the lines to Central; the wagons can bump and lurch all they like in their way to Dentonholme! That having been said, it's not been possible to maintain a perfect alignment as you might be able to detect. But the coaches shown do at least seem to be capable of staying on the track as they get pushed through.

A prototype photo with an equivalent degree of foreshortening probably wouldn't look much different.

Edited July 12 by St Enodoc
speling

[LNER4479]

Meanwhile ...

 

Procrastination no longer - some serious wire strangling called for at Upperby. This has necessitated installation of the trackbed of the single track M&C passenger running line (it will fan out into the prototypical up and down lines nearer the station), rising from right to left, prior to the setting out of the control panel as shown.

 

Beneath the boards, everything (to the best of my ability!) has been pre-wired as it was installed so it's currently a mass of wires hanging down, together with some of the preliminary/temporary wiring put in place for last year's running sessions.

 

No doubt this panel will have attracted some interest. This is how Upperby MPD (12A) looks semi diagrammatically. Utterly conventional - DCC die-hards look away now - with simple on/off switches and stud contact point changing. There's just a blank space top left where the (Heljan) turntable roundhouse is - that's subject of its own separate panel to the left of this one, shown in hinged up position in the top photo.

In all, including the roundhouse, the depot should hold some 50 locos before it gets bunged up. Hours of fun to be had

(It needs to house that many locos as there's no Kingmoor in my scheme so this 12A is playing the role of two (large) depots combined)

 

Underneath the depot panel (it too hinges up for access), the common wire to the switches has all been pre-wired.

 

Underneath the panel will be a relay board, sufficient for 12 of the Heathcote relay boards (4 DPDT relays each), hinging down from the horizontal white batten shown. The tag strip will be the focal point for all the main track sections and power supplies, positioned thus to allow easy(-ish!) wiring of the relay boards.

In the background you might just be able to make out the circle of wires hanging down beneath the turntable for the roundhouse roads. Another of the previous temporary bits of wiring hangs down, awaiting attention.

 

So, as you can see, quite a bit of preparatory work has been going on in the background. I can now start to reap the benefit as each individual bit of wiring becomes progressively simpler. Progress so far is illustrated here: the rather extravagant Princess Royal test loco makes it from bottom right (depot entrance) to top left (stabling siding, alongside depot exit track), passing through one of the newly livened up depot isolating sections.

 

Of course, quite a bit of the depot trackwork has yet to be even laid so there's still a long hard slog ahead but good to be able to move something via the new, permanent control panel.

 

Edited July 22 by LNER4479

[Sasquatch]

That's all looking rather neat Graham. How do you fix those PL-13 switches to the point motors? I have used hot glue in the past, but it has been known to fail!

And, will you be hooking up a capacitor discharge unit. The internet cable will work better over longer runs if you boost the amps but the circuit must then be controlled with a pulse current! 

 

Regards Shaun

[Chas Levin]

22 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Utterly conventional - DCC die-hards look away now - with simple on/off switches and stud contact point changing.

 

 

Hooray! 😁

[BWsTrains]

On 22/07/2024 at 19:47, LNER4479 said:

No doubt this panel will have attracted some interest. This is how Upperby MPD (12A) looks semi diagrammatically. Utterly conventional - DCC die-hards look away now - with simple on/off switches and stud contact point changing. There's just a blank space top left where the (Heljan) turntable roundhouse is - that's subject of its own separate panel to the left of this one, shown in hinged up position in the top photo.

 

Hi Graham,

 

With stud point changing and no direction indication how do you know for sure what's set where? I (think I) get that the power feed switching goes hand in hand as a paired action as long as you're consistent but then there are some turnouts all on the same sector, or what if the doorbell rings, what happens then?

 

This sector control panel is somewhat more complex than my own entire modest branch line affair, where I have 15 stall motors (Cobalts) manually switched from a panel which looks remarkably  like yours in layout. My advantage is I get a feed from the Cobalts to power a directional LED pair placed next to each switch and of course I'm on DCC so only two wires, no sectors!  

 

As per our discussion before I set out building UH, I started out using the same PECO switching solution as yours. Then I learnt that my British Finescale track was not likely to survive sustained attack from repeat solenoid action, hence the switch to Cobalts. Your input was helpful and appreciated all the same.

 

 

Edited July 28 by BWsTrains

[LNER4479]

On 22/07/2024 at 19:05, Sasquatch said:

How do you fix those PL-13 switches to the point motors?

 

And, will you be hooking up a capacitor discharge unit.

Hi Shaun,

 

The PL-13s are a reasonably snug push fit over the Peco motor in the first place which gets things off to a good start. I hold them in place with my go to fix it - UHU. A blob on each side, apply PL-13 then immediately remove, as both surfaces are non porous. Allow to go 'off' for no more than 90 secs, apply a little more UHU then press firmly together. Works for me.

 

Re CDU - absolutely! One of the rare Peco products I'm not a fan of, though. I use the Gaugemaster HD unit, seen here top centre in the developing Upperby panel.

 

Viewed from the front, the CDU output goes to the connector block top right, underneath the main controller. The other connector block, on the left hand side, is the four outputs plus common from the controller. I can then get at everything easy for onward connections.

 

[LNER4479]

On 28/07/2024 at 22:44, BWsTrains said:

With stud point changing and no direction indication how do you know for sure what's set where? I (think I) get that the power feed switching goes hand in hand as a paired action as long as you're consistent but then there are some turnouts all on the same sector, or what if the doorbell rings, what happens then?

 

As per our discussion before I set out building UH, I started out using the same PECO switching solution as yours.

 

 

Being slightly glib - if there's a long-winded, tortuous way to wire something up, ignoring a blindingly obvious 'route 1' solution, then I'm yer man.

 

There really is no consistency with point configuration and section switching in what you see; each section and any associated points have been decided according to where I want to isolate locos around the depot, including some sections isolated via the point blades - a no-no to many.

 

No indicator lights - most of the trackwork shown on the panel is right in front of the operator so detection by MK1 human eyeball! In many cases, locos will not move and / or grind to a halt if points are set against them. Plus avoiding the time / expense of fitting each point with detection and lighting circuit. I only have the remains of one lifetime left to finish the layout and there's enough wires heading towards that rather compact panel as it is!

 

Peco point motors, with their instantaneous 'thump!' action, are really designed to work with Peco points (unsurprisingly), which are robust enough to withstand such a movement. Handbuilt points, and other delicate makes, unlikely to survive such an onslaught in the long term.

 

 

First three points are now energised (and working fine) via the studs. But that's not very visual so you'll have to take my word for that!

 

Edited July 29 by LNER4479

[St Enodoc]

43 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

No indicator lights - most of the trackwork shown on the panel is right in front of the operator so detection by MK1 human eyeball! In many cases, locos will not move and / or grind to a halt if points are set against them. Plus avoiding the time / expense of fitting each point with detection and lighting circuit. I only have the remains of one lifetime left to finish the layout and there's enough wires heading towards that rather compact panel as it is!

 

Not teaching you to suck eggs, Graham, but for the benefit of others. Those of us who grew up with "electric pencil" point operation, with two studs per point, developed a sort of muscle memory whereby when setting a route you start from where the movement will begin and touch EVERY stud along the route to where it will end. Good practice whatever system you are using in fact.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Not teaching you to suck eggs, Graham, but for the benefit of others. Those of us who grew up with "electric pencil" point operation, with two studs per point, developed a sort of muscle memory whereby when setting a route you start from where the movement will begin and touch EVERY stud along the route to where it will end. Good practice whatever system you are using in fact.

Wot like you did when Barry transported you to Sheffield Exchange?

 

I am in the same camp as Graham, I too only have so much time left and  I too like to keep cost down.  Old fashioned methods that work are best suited to my needs.

 

I understand those who enjoy the electronics side of the hobby, and if they are getting pleasure form it, excellent.

 

By the way Red Leader, the invitation to come and play with Sheff Ex is still for the taking.

 

[St Enodoc]

46 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Wot like you did when Barry transported you to Sheffield Exchange?

Yes, and like wot I done on all my layouts before I came to Australia and started using GPO keys and then Modratec lever frames instead.

[BWsTrains]

4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I only have the remains of one lifetime left to finish the layout

 

This, I know only too well😎

[Michael Edge]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Not teaching you to suck eggs, Graham, but for the benefit of others. Those of us who grew up with "electric pencil" point operation, with two studs per point, developed a sort of muscle memory whereby when setting a route you start from where the movement will begin and touch EVERY stud along the route to where it will end. Good practice whatever system you are using in fact.

That’s what we’ve always done in the Leeds club, sequence for moving a train as follows:

1.   Starting from the loco position touch every stud to where you want to go

2.   Switch on any links needed and check that the detect light on the controller (a feature of our controllers for about 50 years or so)

3.  Switch on the section where your loco is and check that the detect light does come on

4.    Drive away

The detect lights show green when something is in circuit and red when a shirt circuit is detected -,someone else can explain how it works. Not to be confused with the green LED on many controllers which merely shows that power has been applied.

[St Enodoc]

30 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

That’s what we’ve always done in the Leeds club

That's where I learned!

 

30 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

2.   Switch on any links needed

5. Switch 'em off afterwards!

[Michael Edge]

That’s another story……

[lofty.ian]

I was brought up on Leeds club stud method. But for my Middleton Road layout I went posh and used push buttons. At a Leeds exhibition I had problems with push buttons sticking and draining the CDU so no point control. After the exhibition I ripped them out and went  back to simple lead and studs. Sometimes the old simple ways are better.

[BoD]

19 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

when setting a route you start from where the movement will begin and touch EVERY stud along the route to where it will end. Good practice whatever system you are using in fact.

I still do that even though it is now ‘computer controlled’ and I am doing it on a touch screen rather than with my probe - which was always an empty biro case  with a wire stuffed down it.  

 

I’m convinced that, when in fully auto mode, the computer does the same.  As you say, good practice whatever the system.

 

As someone who is now persona non grata used to say, ‘clunk, click, every trip’.

[New Haven Neil]

In our old club (South Shields)  we used a three stud system, on the exit to each point, and used thimbles (metal ones.....) to follow the route you wanted - which worked a bit like lead and stud but the centre stud replaced the lead.  Then simple section switches, with cab control of same with two way switches on the main station panel.  pretty bullet proof.

[Sasquatch]

Thanks for the very informative reply Graham! It was one of those H@M Clipper controllers that really got me going in the hobby as a kid.

I'd brought a Lima train set with my weekly pocket money through my Grans mail order catalog. The batteries cost a fair bit so Grandad got one of those Clippers for Christmas. Best Christmas present ever! So, thanks for revoking the memory too! 

 

I wasn't very direct with my initial point (no pun intended). When I wired up all the point motors on Queensbury I used single core ISDN internet cable and found that over longer runs things were very weak. Multi stranded wire is better because there's less voltage drop.  Rather than rewire it all I chose to up the voltage to 24V at a couple of amps (which cured the problem) but that might cause damage if a CDU isn't employed!!

The new power is DC which works just as well. Just have to hook it up to the CDU the right way.

 

Regards Shaun.  

[LNER4479]

Wire strangling continues ...

 

With the MPD panel up and running, time to set up the rest of the panel for the other track sections. This is to go on the right hand side of the controller and required a minor bit of carpentry to accommodate it. The panel to be is above, showing the pre-wiring done on the switches prior to fixing in place.

 

And now in position! Apparently simple, compared to the depot panel, the difference being that all the points shown are on No.12 box lever frame and the complexity of the section switching will be dealt with by the relay boards. Other than giving a visual indication, the main purpose is to provide the source section switch and the option to connect to different controllers for flexibility.

 

The track section inputs come via the tag strip, which is starting to look suitably busy. As a reminder, this is situated directly above the relay board to be, such that the wiring of the relays has easy access to the different track sections.

 

Incidentally, do you like my spotlight for illuminating under the baseboard? A modern LED lamp inside provides the source of light.

 

Once again you're going to have to take my word for it but trust me when I say that the 4F has made it to the trackwork shown from the MPD. This involves newly livened up track sections 'Yard', 'Up Goods' & 'Down Goods'.

The aforementioned lever frame is partly in shot over on the left hand side - I'll photograph it better next time. 3 crossovers working on it so far.

 

Next task will be to get the relay panel up and running. Then the real head scratching can get underway 😵‍💫

[BoD]

On 31/07/2024 at 05:38, Sasquatch said:

hanks for the very informative reply Graham! It was one of those H@M Clipper controllers that really got me going in the hobby as a kid.

Funnily enough, the other week,  I was talking to a chap whose first job was packing H&M products when he left school at fifteen.  He only got that job because his mother was secretary to Mr Morgan.

 

Nothing to do with HOTN, sorry, but an interesting connection.

[5BarVT]

On 04/08/2024 at 21:21, LNER4479 said:

Incidentally, do you like my spotlight for illuminating under the baseboard? A modern LED lamp inside provides the source of light.

Absolutely brilliant! (And I’m not just referring to the output.)

Paul.

[LNER4479]

Variety being the spice of life, decided to lay a bit more track. But it soon descended into more electrickery, as will become apparent ...

 

This is the trackwork for the MPD exit - which also doubles up as the lead to the carriage shed. An electrofrog double slip had recently been procured (at vast expense) as the basis for this so here goes. The square headed mice have already been busy.

 

Not sure if I've highlighted this before - if I did it was a while ago - but I do prefer my Peco motors to be directly affixed below the points wherever possible. To disguise it and allow for future visits by the ballastmeister, I have a card template which I use to cut out these cover pieces which get sandwiched between the point and motor.

 

Like so? They're just larger than the opening so, in theory at least, provide a seal all round.

 

And here comes the wiring! 3 for each motor (6), 3 for each frog switch (6), 4 point dropper wires (4) plus a wire for an adjacent section switch makes a grand total of 17 wires to be threaded through the baseboard as the track is fitted for keeps.

 

And the view from underneath, after several hours work with the soldering iron. The right hand motor of the slip has yet to be connected up (no need until the carriage shed tracks are laid, although the associated frog switch is wired), but otherwise this is about as neat as it gets for me.

(Bare wires have since been taped)

 

And - ta, daa! Albeit, in the lieu of video, you'll have to take my word for it. Suffice to say that the wiring was even more complicated than it appears. The double slip is switchable between MPD and 'Yard' (the adjacent road), which required a further PL13 underneath the bottom right point - it and the other end of the slip (beneath the 4F's tender) work in tandem as a crossover. In MPD mode - crossover 'normal', as depicted, the slip is isolate-able, allowing another loco (the Princess) to move into the section behind. Always useful in a MPD situation where you're forever shuffling locos about.

 

Three evening's work there, but it's done now. Relay panels next, methinks.

Edited August 11 by LNER4479

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

17 wires

No comment.