Over thirty years since Model Railway Constructor passed

[Phil Parker]

16 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

Terms such as 'an EM layout' or a 'P4 layout' are only correct if the 'layout' is just a test track with nothing other than track on it.

 

Except the P4 society, for many years, advertised that P4 standards weren't just about the track. The suggestion was that P4ness would be carried over into all aspects of the scene.

 

18 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

One of the luxuries which we enjoy today, is that pages are read by more than one person, which considerably reduces (but never eliminates) mistakes.

 

That is very much appreciated!

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, VIA185 said:

Surely, if we are going to be really pedantic about how these things are shown, the LAYOUT is 4mm:1ft scale. The TRACK GAUGE is 'OO', 'EM', 'P4' or whatever. Like most terminology, it has become corrupted in speech. Terms such as 'an EM layout' or a 'P4 layout' are only correct if the 'layout' is just a test track with nothing other than track on it.

Sometimes you read of model buses and other road vehicles and buildings, being to 'OO Gauge', which of course is nonsense.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Except the P4 society, for many years, advertised that P4 standards weren't just about the track. The suggestion was that P4ness would be carried over into all aspects of the scene.

 

With the MRSG claiming that the components couldn't possibly work, if not made by the company owned by the founders (Studiolith), who I'm told by a friend, reckons he's still owed parts paid for decades ago.

[hayfield]

My initial quote was about the way the Railway Modeler quoted 00 gauge layouts in the top corner of the right hand page for 00 gauge layouts, where as EM & P4 layouts were referred to as 4mm scale, this I am pleased to say is now changing. Nothing to do with Finescale modelling which can be attributed to all layouts in any gauge/scale.

 

There are many finescale layouts using either 00 or H0 gauge track.

 

My comment was more about editorial matters than anything else, having been a subscriber for many years and I must say enjoy the pages more than its many competitors. I think by supporting the mag I do have the right to have an opinion, especially when it comes to matters relating to track.

 

 

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

With the MRSG claiming that the components couldn't possibly work, if not made by the company owned by the founders (Studiolith), who I'm told by a friend, reckons he's still owed parts paid for decades ago.

He is far from the only one!

 

Paul

[Pacific231G]

On 25/07/2024 at 14:38, VIA185 said:

Surely, if we are going to be really pedantic about how these things are shown, the LAYOUT is 4mm:1ft scale. The TRACK GAUGE is 'OO', 'EM', 'P4' or whatever. Like most terminology, it has become corrupted in speech. Terms such as 'an EM layout' or a 'P4 layout' are only correct if the 'layout' is just a test track with nothing other than track on it. 

Most such terms can't be corrupted in speech because they never had a pure meaning and you can't be pedantic about terms that have arisen from and changed in common usage.

"No. 00" originally referred to the gauge (along with No. 0,  No. 1 and  No. 2 gauges etc. ) whether the scale used was 4 mm/ft or the correct 3.5 mm/ft. H0 was added later to differentiate models using the gauge's correct scale from those- the majority unfortunately-  using Greenly's horrible compromise. For a while later on 00 more often referred to the 4mm/ft scale so that the BRMSB's "00 fine scale" had a gauge of 18mm and in America it had (and has) a gauge of 19 mm. 

 

I would say that nowadays (and for the past seven decades or more) OO is a gauge/scale combination as are EM and H0 but then you have variants such as 00n3 or H0m where the 00 or H0 refers to the scale. (EMn3 would be fairly meaningless) If you say that the Buckingham branch is an EM layout then we know that means as we do if it's described as an EM gauge layout and we know that Frank Dyer's Borchester is an 00 layout, an 00 scale layout or a 00 gauge layout. I agree though that a 00 gauge bus is absurd (unless it's a railbus!) 

In 0, by contrast it still refers more to the gauge (32 mm) as there are three scales in common use (1:43.5 Britain and France, 1:45 Germany and others, 1:48 American) all using the same track gauge and all called 0. 

 

We can't even agree about whether it is 00 or OO.  

 

 

Edited July 27 by Pacific231G
spelling

[Pacific231G]

On 25/07/2024 at 14:57, Phil Parker said:

 

Except the P4 society, for many years, advertised that P4 standards weren't just about the track. The suggestion was that P4ness would be carried over into all aspects of the scene.

 

Well they had to be about the wheels as well! 

The idea of P4ness does sound typically arrogant of certain workers in that gauge, as if the buildings at Pendon were somehow substandard because the track gauge was EM - maybe they thought  the thickness of the glazing material in the cottage windows had to be accurate to 1/100 mm as well. 

Edited July 27 by Pacific231G

[hmrspaul]

On 25/07/2024 at 23:18, Pacific231G said:

Well they had to be about the wheels as well! 

The idea of P4ness does sound typically arrogant of certain workers in that gauge, as if the buildings at Pendon were somehow substandard because the track gauge was EM - maybe they thought  the thickness of the glazing material had to be accurate to 1/100 mm as well. 

They were arrogant, attempting to control all of 'their' ideas. In the end the Protofour magazine was banned in our house; I'll not expand on why. 

 

However, they were attempting to push the modelling of 4mm to much finer standards. They date to the mid 1960s when a coach would have the windows set back a scale 6inches to a foot and locomotive models marginal representation of valve gears. Wheels were horrible - not simply that they were like steam rollers but the best wagon wheels were Jacksons and they were dished with representation of the three holes or spokes.

 

So, others soon followed - for example PC Models and Mopok producing coach kits with sides printed onto clear plastic which still gives the best representation of a steel bodied coach which has no external window surrounds - that steel is only 1/8th inch plate so a layer of printing ink is accurate. Then we got the wonders of etching which were a revolution, and even whitemetal wagon kits went from the pigs ears that K's produced (see elsewhere on RMWeb) to the accurately observed and reproduced ABS range by Adrian Swain. OK we had already had the Airfix & Ratio kits and original Kitmasters but most of the rest of the offer at that time was very poor (including Hornby Dublo and Triang)

 

Paul

Edited July 27 by hmrspaul

[kevinlms]

On 06/02/2019 at 20:17, Martync said:

The first model railway magazine I ever bought was a back number of MRC which I got from a small exhibition we visited when on holiday in the Lake District in the early 70s.  It was - I think - from 1964 if memory serves, as I don't have it anymore.  It had a very nice little layout featured in TT; "Pendean to St Day".  It really marked the start of my transition from train sets to model railways.  I must confess I was not a regular purchaser of MRC, but tended to buy it when an article took my fancy, but it was always well put together, and I think it was the first to feature colour photo's - I may be wrong on that point though...….

I still have a few back numbers with treasured articles.

 

Martyn

Pendean Junction did appear in Feb 1965 and there was at least one part I believe in June 1964 - I don't have it check.

[Pacific231G]

On 26/07/2024 at 15:36, hmrspaul said:

They were arrogant, attempting to control all of 'their' ideas. In the end the Protofour magazine was banned in our house; I'll not expand on why. 

 

However, they were attempting to push the modelling of 4mm to much finer standards. They date to the mid 1960s when a coach would have the windows set back a scale 6inches to a foot and locomotive models marginal representation of valve gears. Wheels were horrible - not simply that they were like steam rollers but the best wagon wheels were Jacksons and they were dished with representation of the three holes or spokes.

The aims of the MRSG were indeed laudable but their approach verged on the fanatical, or at least it came over that way in print. Instead of saying "here are some ways we can all improve our modelling", it was far more "you're all doing it all wrong". "It" being how you persuade a very small wheel to stay on a very narrow gauge track and still look like its full size prototype.   Needless to say, I have friends who model - or who have modelled- in P4 and they're not a bit like that.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

The aims of the MRSG were indeed laudable but their approach verged on the fanatical, or at least it came over that way in print. Instead of saying "here are some ways we can all improve our modelling", it was far more "you're all doing it all wrong". "It" being how you persuade a very small wheel to stay on a very narrow gauge track and still look like its full size prototype.   Needless to say, I have friends who model - or who have modelled- in P4 and they're not a bit like that.

"Dictatorial" rather than "fanatical" was how I remember them - in modern jargon, my way or the highway.

[Krusty]

I abandoned P4 at the time of the Great Schism (I was getting more interested in larger scales, not to mention narrow gauge, anyway). Strangely, I attended a presentation by Bernard Weller a number of years later and found him then to be entirely reasonable.

Edited July 28 by Krusty

[hayfield]

15 years ago I joined the Watford and District MRC which at that time had members of varying interests including a small group who also belonged to the North London Group (P4 modelers)

 

Far from being an elitist's group who looked down on other modeler's, they are a group of people who were most generous in sharing their knowledge and passion for the hobby

 

Back in the late 60's at my second job my 2 managers were both P4 modeler's, again two of the most friendly and helpful people I have met, like wise back in the days of Puffers of Kenton, the young John Redrup (London Road Models) again was super helpful to one and all who visited the shop

 

I don't model to P4 standards, though I have a few P4 models, likewise I don't model to Scale Seven standards, I enjoy their company

 

Recently I have come across some folk who model to Scale Seven standards, what a bunch of kind and helpful folk.

 

On the other hand over the years I have come across some of the most obnoxious folk none of whom were P4 modelers thinking they are far superior to others, these people do belong to all groups not only in the model railway world but other walks of life. I accept their is a minority within the P4 world who are a pain and should be avoided, but I have found far more in that category who model to 4mm scale using narrower (not narrow gauge) gauge trackwork who seem to have a massive chip on their shoulders, thankfully these are in the smallest minority, as the average railway modeler I come across are a delight to know and befriend, and are very generous with sharing their time and knowledge

 

 

 

  

[meil]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

"Dictatorial" rather than "fanatical" was how I remember them - in modern jargon, my way or the highway.

I think you are being unfair on the MRSG. The MRSG weren't Exactoscale. The MRSG were composed of more than the three owners of Exactoscale and they did do a service to the hobby in raising standards and expectations. However Exactoscale was something else and it was they to whom your ire should really being directed. Details are hazy but somehow they had power over the MRGS management committee or the P4 Society - hence, eventually, the great schism.

 

I remember attending the Model Engineer exhibition early eighties (Wembley?) where if they suspected you were a member of the S4 soc they wouldn't sell to you!

 

The trick was to hang around until HE went for a cuppa and his wife was in charge - she would sell to anyone. More business sense in her little finger than he had in his body.

 

Bernard Weller always was the most sensible of the three.

Edited July 28 by meil

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, meil said:

I think you are being unfair on the MRSG. The MRSG weren't Exactoscale. The MRSG were composed of more than the three owners of Exactoscale and they did do a service to the hobby in raising standards and expectations. However Exactoscale was something else and it was they to whom your ire should really being directed. Details are hazy but somehow they had power over the MRGS management committee or the P4 Society - hence, eventually, the great schism.

 

I remember attending the Model Engineer exhibition early eighties (Wembley?) where if they suspected you were a member of the S4 soc they wouldn't sell to you!

 

The trick was to hang around until HE went for a cuppa and his wife was in charge - she would sell to anyone. More business sense in her little finger than he had in his body.

 

Bernard Weller always was the most sensible of the three.

Do you mean Studiolith? I never had any issues with Exactoscale.

 

Whether it was the MRSG and/or Studiolith, their dictatorial attitude to potential customers in particular and the world of model railways in general was most unpleasant, to put it mildly.

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, meil said:

I think you are being unfair on the MRSG. The MRSG weren't Exactoscale. The MRSG were composed of more than the three owners of Exactoscale and they did do a service to the hobby in raising standards and expectations. However Exactoscale was something else and it was they to whom your ire should really being directed. Details are hazy but somehow they had power over the MRGS management committee or the P4 Society - hence, eventually, the great schism.

 

I remember attending the Model Engineer exhibition early eighties (Wembley?) where if they suspected you were a member of the S4 soc they wouldn't sell to you!

 

The trick was to hang around until HE went for a cuppa and his wife was in charge - she would sell to anyone. More business sense in her little finger than he had in his body.

 

Bernard Weller always was the most sensible of the three.

 

The Scalefour Society has a write up of the early history of the society including the early history of Exactoscale

 

From my memory. According to them Exactoscale was the Protofour's own stores

 

Later on Exactoscale was transferred into private hands and Studiolith was the official Protofour sales outlet

 

Eventually Bernard was the sole owner of Exactoscale until his death when Len Newman took over the name with Andrew Dukes when they developed the Exactoscale track brand

Edited July 28 by hayfield

[meil]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Do you mean Studiolith? I never had any issues with Exactoscale.

 

Whether it was the MRSG and/or Studiolith, their dictatorial attitude to potential customers in particular and the world of model railways in general was most unpleasant, to put it mildly.

Yes you are correct. I think it changed name when Bernard Weller became the sole owner.

[hmrspaul]

You have all done a better job than I could on explaining why the Protofour magazine was banned in our home! Most P4 modellers were wonderful people - the North London Group being very welcoming. But the original threesome were something else! Good at selling their ideas but in the dictatorial (not the pleasant description my lady used for them) way as has been explained here. The schism is a long time ago now. 

 

Paul

 

 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

You have all done a better job than I could on explaining why the Protofour magazine was banned in our home! Most P4 modellers were wonderful people - the North London Group being very welcoming. But the original threesome were something else! Good at selling their ideas but in the dictatorial (not the pleasant description my lady used for them) way as has been explained here. The schism is a long time ago now. 

 

Paul

 

 

 

Paul

 

I have seen (seeing) this in a preserved group I belong to, both groups/sides I am certain think they have the best interests of the society in their minds. Sadly rather than work together for the advancement of the society, one group or rather a few in that group have turned to be quite disruptive. Resulting in 2 trustees being removed 

 

What you describe is a fanatical attitude, everybody else is wrong 

 

Sadly whatever area we move in, these folk are attracted to want to create their own fiefdoms, my friend calls them my way or no way people

 

As for the North London Group, I have never attended, but became good friends with quite a few. As you say a nice group of chaps

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Cults was my thought at the time, hence my voyage into EM.

 

Mike.

[VIA185]

Thirty years since MRC passed - and 30 miles off the subject of this topic! Apart from early publicity for Protofour and the North London Group's Bodmin layout, Model Railway Constructor had no involvement in, nor connection with, any of the companies or individuals who made or supplied parts, nor with any of the characters mentioned. Discussions of the pros, cons and business ethics of those organisations are surely better suited to some other category of this forum. (CJL)

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Cults was my thought at the time, hence my voyage into EM.

 

Mike.

Is that a typo?????

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, VIA185 said:

Thirty years since MRC passed - and 30 miles off the subject of this topic! Apart from early publicity for Protofour and the North London Group's Bodmin layout, Model Railway Constructor had no involvement in, nor connection with, any of the companies or individuals who made or supplied parts, nor with any of the characters mentioned. Discussions of the pros, cons and business ethics of those organisations are surely better suited to some other category of this forum. (CJL)

Always an interesting series of articles on Bodmin and went for a long time. 33 parts I believe, which would seem to be unusual for a magazine.

[Enterprisingwestern]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is that a typo?????

 

You pays yer money!

 

Mike.