SECR P Class 0-6-0T in OO Gauge from Hattons

[Edwardian]

I'm still trying to talk myself out of buying one of these. My main period for my layout is 1900-1910. I can *just* about squeeze a small-tank no. 178 in at the end of that period if I assume that it would have escaped down a jointly-operated branchline. Only trouble will be finding suitable rolling stock, unless I assume it would have been seen with two or three wagons and a brake (and I don't know where I can find an SECR brake van kit that isn't a dancehall - too modern to go with the pretty green livery!)

 

There is some doubt as to what coaches these locos first ran with.  Probably ex-LCDR 6-wheelers.  The 2 bogie sets and the ex-SER 6-wheel 3-sets came later.

 

Now, someone here - I'm having a senior moment -  has done some very good conversions of Parkside Midland brake vans to the very similar SECR vans. I am not sure any of the Ps would have been cascaded for shunting duties within your period, however. EDIT: SimonOR of this parish, it is a 1910 type: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112617-buildingbodging-some-secr-brake-vans/

 

One thing in your favour is that they were trialled in a variety of places in these early days, so I really don't see why you can't have it trialling on your line?

 

Go on, you know you want to!

Edited November 30, 2017 by Edwardian

[grandadbob]

I am genuinely interested in how people use attractive releases such as these.  Are they run on layouts?  If so, are they run as a preserved period loco, as a pre-Grouping loco, or simply for the joy of it, with no more complicated justification that Rule No.1? 

 

Half the fun of any release is contemplating what one might do with, or, indeed, to it.

 

 

As a self confessed serial box-opener and more of a train set operator than railway modeller  Rule 1 applies here and I run everything for the joy of it.   

[adb968008]

Which, as SE Finecast supply spare castings, is presumably not a problem. I did ask Hattons Dave if Hattons would consider supplying alternative buffers, but, as the smokebox wrapper would need minor surgery too, on reflection, I hardly think it matters.

 

I am genuinely interested in how people use attractive releases such as these. Are they run on layouts? If so, are they run as a preserved period loco, as a pre-Grouping loco, or simply for the joy of it, with no more complicated justification that Rule No.1?

 

Half the fun of any release is contemplating what one might do with, or, indeed, to it.

 

I look forward to acquiring a brace.

Wow.. ok then you did ask...

 

I unashamedly have a trainset !

When i’m Retired I might have time for scenery, but for now with family, and job with travel i’m Time poor... so all my efforts goes into running trains with imagination... some day I might take a lot of track up, make a nice diaroma.. but for now.. it’s an old fashioned sprawl.

 

So I have a sprawl of lines, sidings, loops on 4 levels with a top to bottom of a height of 60cm / 2ft, giving me 9 different combinations of 18m (54ft) circles to run to 22 designated stations... it’s all manual from 7 “signal boxes” where I use connector blocks for the wiring (which took a year in itself). Everything is DC.

 

How do I manage it..

I have a timetable, with 1500 workings in a “day”, set to regions, stock combinations and diagrams.

The timetable consists of 200 or so individual services, passenger & freight, broken down by region, (I have an “international” service for my European stock too each Intl service train (hourly, x24 hours) follows the same route, but has a “country” and more recently I added an infill “BR modern image” set of designated services on a new route added). My Shunters get a lot of use !

 

Much of the timetable was built using actual departure times of some mainlines in the BR 1950s timetable.. S&D departures from Bath and Bournemouth for example. (Obviously intermediate stations or the final arrival time doesn’t come into it.. otherwise i’d be in permanent gridlock).

 

The fleet is managed by 16 locomotive “sheds”. (Some are just two sidings, biggest holds 16 locos)... off layout storage has designated “shed” storage boxes. The layout can hold around 120 locos at anyone time, plus around 300 items of rolling stock before it starts getting to look full. The main Loops are built to pass 7 coach trains at stations, longest terminal platforms at either end is 14 at one, 9 at two others and two sidings elsewhere capable of 14. Usually services don’t run any bigger than 7+loco.

 

Longest service I run, covers 6 of 9 possible loops, 250ft approx travelled, Newcastle -Penzance.. with 3 loco changes.. Sheffield, Birmingham and Bristol, it usually takes me an hour to run it, by which time I need a cup of tea and I am swearing at something stalling in a hard to reach location... no point motors here !

 

And just to make it even more interesting.. each station is represented by 2 regions (using a pseudonym name, usually LMS/LNE or a GWR/SR pair), as each station can be approached by a minimum of 2, some 4 different directions. I have a figure 8 loop on the lowest level which allows for some continuance in reversing direction to another destination.

 

One line has 3 purposes.. it represents the SR as “Portsmouth”, GWR as “Penzance”, but I double it up as a preserved Branchline between 3 stations on that line too... that’s where my SECR P’s and all my other pre-1948 livery smaller stuff goes... I also have a “Docks shuttle” but that’s the domain of my lbsc terriers.. Waddon, Whitechapel, Stepney, Sutton & Boxhill...USA’s 30064/67/69 for Freight... I also have a GWBranch (Stourbridge), LMS branch (Bury) and another few end points branches (Bodmin, Epsom Downs)...

 

Imagination.. not ‘Alf, but it’s the opposite end of realism.

Edited November 30, 2017 by adb968008

[grandadbob]

MUM  - his trainset is bigger than my trainset!  

[Edwardian]

As a self confessed serial box-opener and more of a train set operator than railway modeller  Rule 1 applies here and I run everything for the joy of it.   

 

 

Wow.. ok then you did ask...

 

I unashamedly have a trainset !

When i’m Retired I might have time for scenery, but for now with family, and job with travel i’m Time poor... so all my efforts goes into running trains with imagination... some day I might take a lot of track up, make a nice diaroma.. but for now.. it’s an old fashioned sprawl.

 

So I have a sprawl of lines, sidings, loops on 4 levels with a top to bottom of a height of 60cm / 2ft, giving me 9 different combinations of 18m (54ft) circles to run to 22 designated stations... it’s all manual from 7 “signal boxes” where I use connector blocks for the wiring (which took a year in itself). Everything is DC.

 

How do I manage it..

I have a timetable, with 1500 workings in a “day”, set to regions, stock combinations and diagrams.

The timetable consists of 200 or so individual services, passenger & freight, broken down by region, (I have an “international” service for my European stock too each service train has a “country” and more recently I added an infill “modern image” set of designated services).

Much of the timetable was built using actual departure times of some mainlines in the BR 1950s timetable.. S&D departures from Bath and Bournemouth for example. (Obviously intermediate stations or the final arrival time doesn’t come into it.. otherwise i’d be in permanent gridlock).

 

The fleet is managed by 16 locomotive “sheds”. (Some are just two sidings, biggest holds 16 locos)... off layout storage has designated “shed” storage boxes.

 

Longest service I run, covers 6 of 9 possible loops, 250ft approx travelled, Newcastle -Penzance.. with 3 loco changes.. Sheffield, Birmingham and Bristol, it usually takes me an hour to run it, by which time I need a cup of tea and I am swearing at something stalling in a hard to reach location.

 

And just to make it even more interesting.. each station is represented by 2 regions (using a pseudonym name), as each station can be approached by a minimum of 2, some 4 different directions. I have a figure 8 loop on the lowest level which allows for some continuance in reversing direction to another destination.

 

One line has 3 purposes.. it represents the SR as “Portsmouth”, GWR as “Penzance”, but I double it up as a preserved Branchline between 3 stations on that line too... that’s where my SECR P’s and all my other pre-1948 livery smaller stuff goes... I also have a “Docks shuttle” but that’s the domain of my lbsc terriers.. Waddon, Whitechapel, Stepney, Sutton & Boxhill.

 

I find this both interesting and encouraging.

 

Often it can seem, to me, that we are encouraged to think in terms of ever increasing realism and having a rationale for everything on our layouts. Well, I confess, I go this way myself, but that is subject to a very major caveat in the form of Rule No.1.

 

I am unlikely to have layout settings suitable for all the stock that interests me, so my layout will have to accommodate all comers in addition to the stock that is supposed to run there.  

[Wickham Green]

There is no problem, as I thought I had made clear.  The models can only represent the as preserved condition, though the description "178 in SE&CR lined green 1910-1911 & as preserved" evidently suggests something different to you than it does to me.  

 

It does not follow that there is a problem, however; the answer is simply to apply minor correctives to make a more accurate pre-Grouping representation of the class.  As this can be done without compromising the cosmetic finish of the lined green areas, I would have thought any self-respecting modeller would simply pick up his or her scalpel and just crack on, which is what I intend to do.

 

Nothing to see here, move along ...

I still can't see where my comments in post 390 conflict with anything you've said ..... but ........... as you say, let's move on and remind Edwardian that sprung S.E.C.R. buffers are available from Branclines if required  -  and remind Tim Dubya that one of the Ps spent time on the South Western - at Winchester ( but I hesitate to mention that it had L.S.W.R. buffers at the time ! ).

 

I'd better not bang on too much about buffers - but must point out that the stepped ones I referred to as Southern Railway type, in post 390, appeared first on the N class so were actually of S.E.C.R. origin .................. they were fitted to MOST Maunsell and Bulleid locos ( Many of the 4-6-0s had L.S.W.R. buffers and a number of Light Pacifics has L.M.S. type ! ) and were vastly different from the L.N.E.R. stepped parallel ( Moulton ) type - whatever some sprung buffer manufacturers might have us believe !

Edited November 30, 2017 by Wickham Green

[Edwardian]

I still can't see where my comments in post 390 conflict with anything you've said ..... but ........... as you say, let's move on and remind Edwardian that sprung S.E.C.R. buffers are available from Branclines if required  -  and remind Tim Dubya that one of the Ps spent time on the South Western - at Winchester ( but I hesitate to mention that it had L.S.W.R. buffers at the time ! ).

 

Fair enough. Useful tip on the Branchlines buffers, thanks.  Branchlines don't have a website IIRC, is it a case of a SAE for a catalogue?  I suspect they may offer all manner of good things of which I am unaware.

[St Enodoc]

Don't forget the crane would have been self propelled ........ I think I know which would win a tug of war !

Well, up to a point, Lord Copper...

 

The travelling gear allowed the crane to move under its own power but only at slow speed within a worksite. To get to and from the worksite, the travelling gear was disengaged and the crane formed up in the breakdown train hauled by a locomotive.

[Wickham Green]

As a self confessed serial box-opener and more of a train set operator than railway modeller  Rule 1 applies here and I run everything for the joy of it.   

Cereal box opener ? ............ have I missed something about free trainsets in packets of cornflakes ?

[Tim Dubya]

I still can't see where my comments in post 390 conflict with anything you've said ..... but ........... as you say, let's move on and remind Edwardian that sprung S.E.C.R. buffers are available from Branclines if required - and remind Tim Dubya that one of the Ps spent time on the South Western - at Winchester ( but I hesitate to mention that it had L.S.W.R. buffers at the time ! ).

Cheers

Edited November 30, 2017 by Tim Dubya

[Tim Dubya]

Fair enough. Useful tip on the Branchlines buffers, thanks. Branchlines don't have a website IIRC, is it a case of a SAE for a catalogue? I suspect they may offer all manner of good things of which I am unaware.

Give Brian a call at Branchlines he takes cards over the phone and a thoroughly helpful chap all round.

 

PO Box 4293,

WESTBURY

BA13 9AA

Tel/Fax: +44 (0) 1373 822231

sales@branchlines.com

 

 

Does Dave at Roxey have anything in his coach range or the Southwark Bridge ranges?

 

Cheers

 

Dubya

Edited November 30, 2017 by Tim Dubya

[Edwardian]

Give Brian a call at Branchlines he takes cards over the phone and a thoroughly helpful chap all round.

 

Does Dave at Roxey have anything in his coach range or the Southwark Bridge ranges?

 

Cheers

 

Dubya

 

Thanks, Tim, that's helpful and good to know

[adb968008]

I find this both interesting and encouraging.

 

Often it can seem, to me, that we are encouraged to think in terms of ever increasing realism and having a rationale for everything on our layouts. Well, I confess, I go this way myself, but that is subject to a very major caveat in the form of Rule No.1.

 

I am unlikely to have layout settings suitable for all the stock that interests me, so my layout will have to accommodate all comers in addition to the stock that is supposed to run there.

 

Whilst my layout has limited scenery, (signals, signalboxes, water towers, sheds), there’s not much room left after that, I do try to keep the trains prototypical.. no NSE 47’s on GW hawksworths here ! I also have a rule about tardiness too.. any shenanigans.. derailment, stall, line blocked etc.. that train is stopped and I move to the next. When I get 3 consecutive trains in a row without any incident.. I can pick one “late running” train to recover, or an unplanned service, LE movement etc, makes life interesting.

August 2016 the neighbours did building work, I had to protect one corner of the highest level for 3 months and close that section... delayed about 30 services.. the last one is 5 hours late and about to run now ;-)

I keep a log of each service run, the loco, date and time start and end.

 

Rule 1.. well I have rule 1, 1.01, 1.02 etc etc....

I like rules, as rules are designed to be broken, and can cause head scratching constraints.

Edited November 30, 2017 by adb968008

[BG John]

I suppose I could move the date of my K&ESR layout forward a few years, and make the baseboard a bit wider. It would be an interesting challenge in using forced perspective, to have a 4mm scale SECR line in the background of my 7mm scale Colonel Stephens station!

[JSpencer]

The P allocated to the Sheppey light railway would have used a pair of articulated coaches which was a converted steam railway set by removing the engine and placing a bogie shared between them (now that is an interesting subject).

 

I have found photos of Wadden (Terrier 751) on mixed trains around 1905 and it would not be hard to imagine a P doing similar stuff on occasion a few years later.

[St Enodoc]

Cereal box opener ? ............ have I missed something about free trainsets in packets of cornflakes ?

I got a Kitmaster Deltic from Shredded Wheat about 50 years ago...

[lochlongside]

I got a Kitmaster Deltic from Shredded Wheat about 50 years ago...

so did I - and an 08 and an Evening Star (still got the kits plus the cardboard wrapper boxes 2 of them came in somewhere in the garage if the mice haven't nested in them)  -we lived on weetabix in the house for weeks G_d knows what my parents thought - I'm afraid to make it now - may be worth a fortune to a kitmaster collector (I wish )

[Wickham Green]

........ one of the Ps spent time on the South Western - at Winchester ( but I hesitate to mention that it had L.S.W.R. buffers at the time ! ).

 

 

Having hesitated, I can confirm that 31325 had a spell at Winchester in / from 1950 and was fitted with oversized L.S.W.R. buffers for the job ( Quick visit to Eastleigh after the standard buffers were found to 'lock' too easily, I guess.) : this seems to have been the first P to lose its original buffers and larger heads - on larger shanks - appear to have been adopted as standard thereafter.

[Guy Rixon]

Fair enough. Useful tip on the Branchlines buffers, thanks.  Branchlines don't have a website IIRC, is it a case of a SAE for a catalogue?  I suspect they may offer all manner of good things of which I am unaware.

 

 

Branchlines have a collection of single-sheet catalogues that they self for pennies at shows. There is one sheet for the coach kits, one for loco kits, one for narrow-gauge stuff, etc. Since they still have a web site (inherited from the previous owner, but never updated), it's a pity that the PDFs of the current catalogue cannot be put on-line. I have some of the sheets (somewhere in the heap of unsorted papers), but not the most-recent copies. I could post scans if it helps.

 

The fittings that Branchlines sell include castings from their various kits; Maygib parts, including the SER/SECR loco buffers alluded to above; some Markits products.

[Edwardian]

Branchlines have a collection of single-sheet catalogues that they self for pennies at shows. There is one sheet for the coach kits, one for loco kits, one for narrow-gauge stuff, etc. Since they still have a web site (inherited from the previous owner, but never updated), it's a pity that the PDFs of the current catalogue cannot be put on-line. I have some of the sheets (somewhere in the heap of unsorted papers), but not the most-recent copies. I could post scans if it helps.

 

The fittings that Branchlines sell include castings from their various kits; Maygib parts, including the SER/SECR loco buffers alluded to above; some Markits products.

 

Thanks, Guy.  That is kind.  If and when you come across any of these, please do PM me.

[Hattons Dave]

For the straightness of the record, Hattons have presented the 2 Wainwright lined models as both "as preserved", which I believe is correct, and as "1909-11" or "1910-11", as the case may be, which is not correct. Wickham Green, I direct you to post #3 on page 1, partly reproduced below.

 

I am not moaning about this, I'm too used to manufacturers producing "as preserved" versions in pre-Grouping liveries in preference to pre-Grouping "in-service" models, it's just what they do, and besides, this ain't the place to indulge in speaking Truth to Power, 'cos you're pretty damn powerless, I've found.  Mind you, you have to laugh at the way some people react to factual information. There is a noted Rapper who is funding a space rocket to prove the earth is, indeed, flat.  I would have thought that was obvious, but still ... 

 

So, let's be clear, I am being entirely positive about these models, to the point of having both lined green versions on pre-order. 

 

I don't think, though, that we are likely to see accurate pre-Grouping fully lined versions in due course.  Hattons had the choice to do this as it has the correct tooling for the early condition locos, but common sense suggests to me that they have reckoned that they won't sell four versions in fully lined Wainwright green in sufficient quantities, and, so, they've hedged by using the more modern version tooling with the ostensibly pre-Grouping livery.  Manufacturers cannot cater for every version we may want, and so this seems to be a sensible commercial compromise from Hattons' point of view.

 

The answer is simple, of course; simply trim the smokebox rivets off and fit the correct pattern of buffers, which are obtainable as spares from SE Finecast.

 

However, once I've done that, I will moan if the correct livery/tooling combinations for 1909-1911 condition is released subsequently, but I am not expecting that!

 

Very much looking forward to receiving a pair of these in due course.  Again, well done Hattons!

 

Hello Edwardian,

 

I can now confirm that both the SECR lined versions (H4-P-001 & H4-P-002) will come pre-fitted with the SR-style buffers that they carry in preservation.

 

However, for those modelers looking to portray the locos in their original condition, we're also going to be supplying bottle buffers in the box for the customer to fit if they so wish.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[Tin Turtle]

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for confirming, great news - is it easy to change them over?

[Hattons Dave]

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for confirming, great news - is it easy to change them over?

 

It's a relatively simple case of pulling the buffers out and replacing them with the alternatives.

 

Cheers,

Dave

[Edwardian]

Hello Edwardian,

 

I can now confirm that both the SECR lined versions (H4-P-001 & H4-P-002) will come pre-fitted with the SR-style buffers that they carry in preservation.

 

However, for those modelers looking to portray the locos in their original condition, we're also going to be supplying bottle buffers in the box for the customer to fit if they so wish.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

That is excellent news, and thank you for letting us know.  It will make life a lot easier and is greatly appreciated. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I am genuinely interested in how people use attractive releases such as these...

 They don't  even need to be attractive for me to enjoy pulling their wheels off. (In fact it is better if they are unattractive as that tends to result in easy availability at lower prices.) I currently have definite thoughts of repurposing the ROD, Dean goods and Radial tank models for their useful mechanism dimensions for example. It's only that I cannot see such an application for the P class that is holding me back...