The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly

[Edwardian]

High time we debated the relative virtues of the terms "Brake Third", "Third Brake" and "Van Third", precise nomenclature depending upon the company concerned, I suspect.

 

While we're at it, we can decide whether these vehicles would feature "duckets", "look outs" or "projections"!

 

We could also institute a man-hunt for whoever was responsible for introducing the term "consist" in the context of UK train formations, and suggest a suitable punishment.

 

Apropos which, Dante clearly missed a trick when he overlooked the clear need to devote one of the outer circles of Hell to pedants, though the vestibule of the Futile might be an appropriate holding cell for them.

 

Now, "vestibule", there's an interesting word ....

[Hroth]

Sir has not had his coffee this morning, has sir?

 

Of course, one might say "The third brake thirds brake is broken.".  But then you'd have to keep a look out and ducket, just in case you'd annoyed someone who desired to give you a punch on the vestibule*.....

 

 

* According to Wikipedia, "The nasal vestibule is the nostrils, simply lined with an extension of skin epithelium..."

[Jol Wilkinson]

The LNWR put the Brake or Luggage classification first, which seems sensible. So you could say "it is in the first brake third" and know what is meant.

[BG John]

We could also institute a man-hunt for whoever was responsible for introducing the term "consist" in the context of UK train formations, and suggest a suitable punishment.

Oh dear, according to Dictionary.com:

 

verb (used without object)

1. to be made up or composed (usually followed by of): This cake consists mainly of sugar, flour, and butter.

2. to be comprised or contained (usually followed by in): Her charm does not consist only in her beauty.

3. Archaic. to exist together or be capable of existing together.

4. Obsolete. to insist; urge.

 

noun

5.Railroads.

• the rolling stock, exclusive of the locomotive, making up a train.
• a record made of this rolling stock.

I think we should only use 3 and 4 in this topic though, as the world after 1923 (or whatever dates the era we are discussing consists of) doesn't yet exist, and it appears to be an American modernism/futurism.

[Edwardian]

Oh dear, according to Dictionary.com:

 

verb (used without object)

1. to be made up or composed (usually followed by of): This cake consists mainly of sugar, flour, and butter.

2. to be comprised or contained (usually followed by in): Her charm does not consist only in her beauty.

3. Archaic. to exist together or be capable of existing together.

4. Obsolete. to insist; urge.

 

noun

5.Railroads.

• the rolling stock, exclusive of the locomotive, making up a train.
• a record made of this rolling stock.

I think we should only use 3 and 4 in this topic though, as the world after 1923 (or whatever dates the era we are discussing consists of) doesn't yet exist, and it appears to be an American modernism/futurism.

 

 

Quite so.  Usually Americans are guilty of using nouns as verbs*, but, here, it seems to be the other way around!

 

Anyway,"comprises" surely preferable to "consists of"?

 

* To commit a deliberate solecism, we may refer to this egregious practice as "verbing", thus illustrating the point!

[Compound2632]

Oh dear, according to Dictionary.com:

 

verb (used without object)

1. to be made up or composed (usually followed by of): This cake consists mainly of sugar, flour, and butter.

2. to be comprised or contained (usually followed by in): Her charm does not consist only in her beauty.

3. Archaic. to exist together or be capable of existing together.

4. Obsolete. to insist; urge.

 

noun

5.Railroads.

• the rolling stock, exclusive of the locomotive, making up a train.
• a record made of this rolling stock.

I think we should only use 3 and 4 in this topic though, as the world after 1923 (or whatever dates the era we are discussing consists of) doesn't yet exist, and it appears to be an American modernism/futurism.

 

The example given for definition 2 is applicable to many pre-grouping rakes. Now there's a term...

 

The French speak of une rame, which can also mean an oar. I learnt this many years ago when I had a monthly season ticket for the Paris Métro - une carte orange. There was an RAPT advertisement depicting an inflatable dingy: C'est orange, on l’utilise avec les rames, mais ce n'est pas très utile pour se déplacer à Paris. Isn't French wonderful? Se déplacer - to displace oneself, in the mathematical or Cartesian sense of 'displacement'.

.

[Edwardian]

The example given for definition 2 is applicable to many pre-grouping rakes. Now there's a term...

 

The French speak of une rame, which can also mean an oar. I learnt this many years ago when I had a monthly season ticket for the Paris Métro - une carte orange. There was an RAPT advertisement depicting an inflatable dingy: C'est orange, on l’utilise avec les rames, mais ce n'est pas très utile pour se déplacer à Paris. Isn't French wonderful? Se déplacer - to displace oneself, in the mathematical or Cartesian sense of 'displacement'.

.

 

A pre-Grouping rake, who may well have displaced himself ...

[Compound2632]

High time we debated the relative virtues of the terms "Brake Third", "Third Brake" and "Van Third", precise nomenclature depending upon the company concerned, I suspect.

 

Indeed. As far as I can work out, 'van third' etc. is a Great Western-ism for a carriage with a luggage compartment but no brake compartment, with the term not being used elsewhere.

 

It seems natural to put the adjective before the noun: brake composite, bogie brake composite, lavatory brake composite, corridor brake composite... though the handy BR system puts all other modifiers than 'brake' after the class description: BCZ*, BC, BCL, BCK... 

 

*With bogie carriages coming on the scene long after four and six-wheeled carriages, they got the distinguishing modifier. By the time the letter codes were dreamt up, non-bogie carriages were the exception and hence got the modifier.

[Hroth]

The example given for definition 2 is applicable to many pre-grouping rakes. Now there's a term...

 

 

.

AFAIK most rakes appear to be pre-railway, let alone pre-grouping.....

 

Damn you, beat me to it!!!

 

At least nowadays, if you stand on one in the grass, the most you'd expect would be a rap on the vestibule....

Edited September 25, 2017 by Hroth

[Edwardian]

Indeed. As far as I can work out, 'van third' etc. is a Great Western-ism for a carriage with a luggage compartment but no brake compartment, with the term not being used elsewhere.

 

It seems natural to put the adjective before the noun: brake composite, bogie brake composite, lavatory brake composite, corridor brake composite... though the handy BR system puts all other modifiers than 'brake' after the class description: BCZ*, BC, BCL, BCK... 

 

*With bogie carriages coming on the scene long after four and six-wheeled carriages, they got the distinguishing modifier. By the time the letter codes were dreamt up, non-bogie carriages were the exception and hence got the modifier.

 

The GW working timetables of the 1930s, with which I am tolerably familiar, refer to brake thirds as "Van Thirds", and generally specify they must be marshalled with the brake compartment outermost, and passenger brake vans as merely "Vans"

[Worsdell forever]

 

 

While we're at it, we can decide whether these vehicles would feature "duckets", "look outs" or "projections"!

 

 

 

Of course on the North Eastern they are referred to as a 'Sidecote' or 'Topcote'.

[Compound2632]

A pre-Grouping rake, who may well have displaced himself ...

 

Rather more vulgar - or one might say very French - was the no-smoking slogan: Prière d’allumer d’après le transport en commun (with appropriate illustration).

[Compound2632]

The GW working timetables of the 1930s, with which I am tolerably familiar, refer to brake thirds as "Van Thirds", and generally specify they must be marshalled with the brake compartment outermost, and passenger brake vans as merely "Vans"

 

Great Western - it's another language.

[Edwardian]

Rather more vulgar - or one might say very French - was the no-smoking slogan: Prière d’allumer d’après le transport en commun (with appropriate illustration).

[Caley Jim]

To get back on topic (i.e. being pedantic) let's get our spelling correct here!  'Break', not 'brake' is the proper spelling for early railways.

 

 

Scanned from 'Caledonian Railway carriages' by Mike Williams.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

a rap on the vestibule....

 

Mrs Compound2632, or Beatrice if she must have a nom de chemin de fer, is a lexicographer by profession. She maintains that in current British English, use of the word vestibule is confined to its railway carriage sense.

[Compound2632]

To get back on topic (i.e. being pedantic) let's get our spelling correct here!  'Break', not 'brake' is the proper spelling for early railways.

 

Breaksman.jpgA & FR 3rd.jpg

 

Scanned from 'Caledonian Railway carriages' by Mike Williams.

 

Jim

 

The breaksman does look as if he came new with the carriage and is being withdrawn from service along with it.

[BG John]

Rather more vulgar - or one might say very French - was the no-smoking slogan: Prière d’allumer d’après le transport en commun (with appropriate illustration).

Google thinks it translates as "Please turn on the transit". Am I missing something by being a total dunce at foreign languages?

[Compound2632]

Google thinks it translates as "Please turn on the transit". Am I missing something by being a total dunce at foreign languages?

 

Pun: le transport en commun can mean public transport - more literally, communal transport. But you also need to think of another non-solitary (but not usually communal) activity which can result in mutual 'transport' and after which, stereotypically, both parties light up a fag. The illustration helped... 

 

EDIT: I may not have remembered the French exactly as it appeared on the poster.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Compound2632

[Caley Jim]

Mrs Compound2632, or Beatrice if she must have a nom de chemin de fer, is a lexicographer by profession. She maintains that in current British English, use of the word vestibule is confined to its railway carriage sense.

I hate to disagree with a professional, despite her elegant appearance (Salter safety valves on top of the dome always do it for me) but the bungalow we are (still) trying to sell is described by the Estate Agent in the prospectus as being accessed from the front via an 'entrance vestibule'.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

I hate to disagree with a professional, despite her elegant appearance (Salter safety valves on top of the dome always do it for me) but the bungalow we are (still) trying to sell is described by the Estate Agent in the prospectus as being accessed from the front via an 'entrance vestibule'.

 

Jim

 

Ah well, estate agent English is as idiosyncratic as Great Western English.

 

EDIT: That's my wife you're talking about, so watch your step...

Edited September 25, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

To get back on topic (i.e. being pedantic) let's get our spelling correct here!  'Break', not 'brake' is the proper spelling for early railways.

 

Breaksman.jpgA & FR 3rd.jpg

 

Scanned from 'Caledonian Railway carriages' by Mike Williams.

 

Jim

 

Blimey, it's the Deadwood Stage!

[Guy Rixon]

Blimey, it's the Deadwood Stage!

 

 

Bringing us back to indian, red.

[Oldddudders]

To get back on topic (i.e. being pedantic) let's get our spelling correct here!  'Break', not 'brake' is the proper spelling for early railways.

 

Since French has had a mention, ‘break’ is the term for an estate car here, hence I drive a Clio Break. The brakes do work, but of course they are called ‘freins’.

[Hroth]

Since French has had a mention, ‘break’ is the term for an estate car here, hence I drive a Clio Break. The brakes do work, but of course they are called ‘freins’.

A "Shooting Break" was a vehicle used to cart sportsmen and their equipment out to slaughter game birds.  Its synonymous with Station Wagon and latterly, the Estate Car.

 

According to Wikipedia, its an early 19th C British term and derives from a robust carriage chassis hooked to spirited horses to "break" them.