Layout Help Please

[ejstubbs]

The platform, singular, is on the left at the end of the double tracks ie the side where it says "Station" on the map.  It is often difficult to make out exactly where station platforms begin and end on those large scale OS maps - they were often indicated fairly sketchily.  Arriving trains would need to cross over from the down line using the crossover before the kickback siding.  (If the platform had been on the other side then the crossovers would have been the other way around.)

 

The platform is actually marked on the 1954 OS 1:1,250 plan:

 

 

Interestingly, there's also an engine shed marked: at the north end of that screenshot, beyond the blocks of factories.  Those large factory blocks aren't on the 1920 map, and nor is the engine shed, but the latter is shown on the 1941 map as "Engine House" - I had assumed that was referring to a stationary engine but it appears not.  I suspect that the engine shed was more for locos working in the extensive factory sidings, rather than for the passenger service.  But it provides an "excuse" for loco handling facilities if one were needed.

[ejstubbs]

Window referred to is the smaller one and the bigger one as well, so long as access isn't blocked. Nope, no chance of a removable access...

 

That would seem to settle it, then: the layout needs to be on the right hand side of Harlequin's diagram.  It would be very helpful if the precise dimensions of that space could be determined.

 

It looks to me as if there would be more space for a fiddle yard at the bottom of the diagram - the top seems to have less room available due to the need to keep access to the Juliet balcony free.  Still doesn't look like a whole lot of room for fiddling.  A fiddle yard behind a scenic area might work.  Rough diagram below (layout in green, fiddle yard in blue):

 

[The Johnster]

The platform, singular, is on the left at the end of the double tracks ie the side where it says "Station" on the map.  It is often difficult to make out exactly where station platforms begin and end on those large scale OS maps - they were often indicated fairly sketchily.  Arriving trains would need to cross over from the down line using the crossover before the kickback siding.  (If the platform had been on the other side then the crossovers would have been the other way around.)

 

The platform is actually marked on the 1954 OS 1:1,250 plan:

 

 

Interestingly, there's also an engine shed marked: at the north end of that screenshot, beyond the blocks of factories.  Those large factory blocks aren't on the 1920 map, and nor is the engine shed, but the latter is shown on the 1941 map as "Engine House" - I had assumed that was referring to a stationary engine but it appears not.  I suspect that the engine shed was more for locos working in the extensive factory sidings, rather than for the passenger service.  But it provides an "excuse" for loco handling facilities if one were needed.

 

 

 

Not sure that the 'engine shed' isn't still actually an 'engine house'; to the best of my knowledge Curran's didn't have their own locos (happy to be proved wrong about this) and the various sidings on that side, and up Curran's Road, were worked by big railway engines, or capstans.   The factories appeared during WW2.  Note that the canal is now shown as a tidal creek after Atcher's adventure!

[The Johnster]

That would seem to settle it, then: the layout needs to be on the right hand side of Harlequin's diagram.  It would be very helpful if the precise dimensions of that space could be determined.

 

It looks to me as if there would be more space for a fiddle yard at the bottom of the diagram - the top seems to have less room available due to the need to keep access to the Juliet balcony free.  Still doesn't look like a whole lot of room for fiddling.  A fiddle yard behind a scenic area might work.  Rough diagram below (layout in green, fiddle yard in blue):

 

 

As far as I can tell, the space is 13 feet linear from the wall with the Juliet to the alcove. 2 feet width and a bit more at the bottom so you could have a fiddle area with some sort of feature in front of it.  Now we've got something to work with!

Edited October 1, 2017 by The Johnster

[RJS1977]

If the bottom end of the baseboard is three feet wide (or better slightly more, but much more would make access to the back difficult), there would just be enough room to get a 180 degree bend in and have the fiddle yard behind the station at the top end of the baseboard - or even bring the line back into the station (either into the same platform, which would create electrical difficulties, or into parallel platforms).

 

That said, having a fiddle yard behind a scenic break of some sort at the back of a layout is going to make access awkward for uncoupling - unless of course multiple units are being used.

[Ed Winterbury]

Can I have some help putting this into 4mm, please? The map is a 25 inch, zoomed in on NLS.

[Ed Winterbury]

I'll use the engine shed as a loco shed, adds a bit more potential, maybe with another siding?

Or an exchange siding to the tramway for further shipment of 5 and 7 plank wagons...

[ejstubbs]

The crossover will be formed from two points.  The track you choose to use (Setrack, Streamline, other) will largely dictate the crossover's length, and the spacing between the two parallel tracks.

 

The bit on the platform road between the crossover and the bufferstop will need to be long enough to accommodate your longest loco, otherwise it won't be able to run round the train in the platform road.

 

The distance between the crossover in the station itself and the one in the station throat needs to be long enough to accommodate the longest set of coaches you hope to be able to run.  Plus a bit, because there will be overlap at the crossover.  I usually allow at least 5cm extra at each end where coaches are going to be sat on one of the diverging roads.

 

This stuff is massively easier for you to do if you get yourself a track planning tool, and there is no good reason why one of XtrkCAD, Railmodeller or TRAX won't work on your Mac.

[Ed Winterbury]

I will just draw on paper. Would it be tolerable to imagine that steam was in use until the 70s, with the HSTs in a bit earlier?

[RJS1977]

The original post-nationalisation plan was that steam would remain into the 1980s, by which time it was anticipated most of the network would be electrified. 

 

However in that scenario there would have been less development work on diesels so the HST probably wouldn't have happened.

 

But you can dream up whatever alternate history you like! :-)

[ejstubbs]

If you finish the baseboards, you could follow Siberian snooper's suggestion in posts #216 and #223 and use the Peco point templates to experiment with laying out different track formations at full size (assuming that you're going to be using Streamline track).

[The Johnster]

You'll need to decide what track geometry you are going to use early in the process. with setrack and Peco Streamline being the main options.  I will assume unless you tell me different that you will be using RTR stock with tension lock couplers, which will work with radius 1 or 2 setrack, but not look good owing to the overhang of longer stock.  I'd recommend your minimum radius to be no.3, at the standard setrack centres.  Now, decide what the longest locomotive that will run around a train is to be.  Let's say (just for the purposes of illustration) it's a Bachmann 2-6-4tank.  That's about 9 inches.  Starting from the platform road buffer stops, the nearest the loco release crossover (alongside the word 'Harrowby' in Harrowby Lane on the map) can be to the buffers is 9".  Then, add the length of the point until the loco is clear of the stock it is running around to the first 9".  

 

Now, decide how long your longest train that can be run around will be.  4 coaches?  About 40 inches in 60 footers.  You now have a length which is the minimum size of your run around loop and the length of the station platform; 9"+ clearance (say 12") plus + 40" equals 57".   You are to all intents and purposes 5 feet along the 13 foot length of the layout and have 8 feet left.  Your 4 coach train + loco must fit in the fiddle yard, say 4 feet and you now have 4 feet left.  Into that space you have to fit another crossover and the kickback siding.  

 

Brutal, isn't it?  But any more compression will mean you have to lose a coach and put up with 3 coach maximum trains.  And we haven't even looked at the junctions further out into the factories and on to the Canal branch, which you have no hope of including at this sort of size!

 

My suggestion would be to make the Canal connection a kickback off the loop, with the layout viewed from the Canal side towards the factory backdrop, from east to west, and not bother with the rest of the factory system at all; it is anyway out of sight from this viewpoint behind tall factory buildings.  I'd respectfully suggest that any curve that connected with the tramway system on Clarence Road would be so insanely sharp as to be impractical!

 

Period and stock is up to you as arbiter and adminstrator of Rule 1, but HSTs are pushing it a bit, as is anything with 75 foot long coaches in 8 coach trains; you haven't got room unless you go down to N gauge!  Big diesels or tender steam locos can put in an appearance, but will not be able to run around and have to make their own arrangements to return to shed; they are not impossible on overnight parcels or mail traffic.  The real branch operated for freight and very occasional Rugby traffic until 1969, and was used for parcels stock stabling during the day for some time after that, but by 1971 was derelict.  The road bridge over Penarth Road was removed at about that time so that the road could be widened, which was the end of sports.  Very little trace remains at that end nowadays, but the 'Riverside' platforms, the old Cardiff General 8 and 9 which curved away to the south of the station to form the beginning of the branch were retained for parcels work until the 1990s.  The parcel depot that was situated in the 'wye' of the stations was also still in use until then; nothing is there now and all is car park.

[Ed Winterbury]

HSTs are only for stadium traffic, nothing else. I think I'll take Siberian's ideas into account. So steam in the 70s is plausible, thanks, RJS!

[Ed Winterbury]

The timetable might consist of the typical commuter trains, together with several goods trains from Cardiff General/Central yard. The LNER locos may haul some stadium specials from the North East, whilst a GWR County makes its way from London. The HST will need some spray painting (currently in Midland Mainline turquoise). BR Blue maybe? It's the only one where no precision painting is required and I can just stick on a transfer or two. Does anyone think that a Class 43 without a rear loco in BR Blue is semi-plausible? If not, please suggest to me plausible things. By plausible I mean things that very nearly happened (e.g. steam into the 80s) or something that is logical but never done (e.g. electrifying more suburban lines), not something along the lines of 'run a Class 395 to Clarence Road for the Ashford v Cardiff final in the 1960s' sort of thing. Maybe the Hornby staple, Caledonian 272 0-4-ST can somehow feature?

[Ed Winterbury]

The key thing is plausibility, not considering 'xx94s were never shedded in Cardiff' sort of thing. I'm thinking that the LNER locos might be sent to Cardiff Canton for the night?

Or maybe Canton Shed is too full, so some locos are parked up the branch?

[Siberian Snooper]

A Caley loco sold off to industrial use? As an industrial loco has already been cited.

[The Johnster]

Sorry Ed, but HSTs or LNER locos at Clarence Road would be pushing plausibility too far for me!  The branch was closed and lifted before the introduction of HSTs, and LNER locos were rarer than rocking horse doo doo in South Wales.  An answer to the problem for your purposes might be to use Clarence Road's prototypical track plan as the inspiration for a layout more suited to the running of those types.  But you are the ultimate arbiter and administrator of Rule 1, with full executive powers

 

Or you could have 'prototype' running sessions with stock that actually ran on the branch, interspersed with 'anything goes' sessions; your call.

 

An LNER B12 turned up in Cardiff in the spring of 1945 working a through ambulance train from the front line in Holland; they were, as ex GER locos, fitted with air brakes and ideal for this work, having been attache to the ambulance train at Parkeston Quay.  It ran around at Cardiff General and worked tender first up the Coryton branch in the north of the city to deliver it's wounded to Whitchurch Hospital, which is quite close to Coryton station.  This shows that very unlikely events did sometime take place, but to transfer this very odd one-off to Clarence Road would be a bit much in my view.

 

By the way, 94xx were very common in the Cardiff area, including on this branch!

[TonyMay]

If you want to apply rule 1 in spades, why not model a preserved railway?

[RJS1977]

Sorry Ed, but HSTs or LNER locos at Clarence Road would be pushing plausibility too far for me!  The branch was closed and lifted before the introduction of HSTs, and LNER locos were rarer than rocking horse doo doo in South Wales.  An answer to the problem for your purposes might be to use Clarence Road's prototypical track plan as the inspiration for a layout more suited to the running of those types.  But you are the ultimate arbiter and administrator of Rule 1, with full executive powers

 

Or you could have 'prototype' running sessions with stock that actually ran on the branch, interspersed with 'anything goes' sessions; your call.

 

An LNER B12 turned up in Cardiff in the spring of 1945 working a through ambulance train from the front line in Holland; they were, as ex GER locos, fitted with air brakes and ideal for this work, having been attache to the ambulance train at Parkeston Quay.  It ran around at Cardiff General and worked tender first up the Coryton branch in the north of the city to deliver it's wounded to Whitchurch Hospital, which is quite close to Coryton station.  This shows that very unlikely events did sometime take place, but to transfer this very odd one-off to Clarence Road would be a bit much in my view.

 

By the way, 94xx were very common in the Cardiff area, including on this branch!

 

If we're already assuming the 1955 Modernisation Plan didn't happen, I see no reason why we shouldn't also assume the Clarence Road branch didn't stay open a little longer.

[The Johnster]

Certainly, no reason at all not to continue to run the branch into the blue era or later if you wanted, but an 8 coach HST is too long to run on it; it will be twice as long as the platform and too long to cross over from the down to the up line.  There's a difference between extending reality to suit, and physically impossible...

Edited October 2, 2017 by The Johnster

[Ed Winterbury]

To summarise, there won't be a (D49?) Hunt or Mallard on, but if an HST could be painted BR Blue it will most likely be taking 4 or 5 Mk2s or 3s for a match. 94XXs are just examples, I'm pretty sure these panniers were common. Does the County Class (In GWR Green, maybe repainted for a crude BR Black) work, or did it only run towards Devon?

Thanks for the help!

[Andrew P]

To summarise, there won't be a (D49?) Hunt or Mallard on, but if an HST could be painted BR Blue it will most likely be taking 4 or 5 Mk2s or 3s for a match. 94XXs are just examples, I'm pretty sure these panniers were common. Does the County Class (In GWR Green, maybe repainted for a crude BR Black) work, or did it only run towards Devon?

Thanks for the help!

An HST would NOT pull Mk2's. 

[RJS1977]

I presume you mean the 4-6-0 County rather than the earlier 4-4-0.

 

I was going to say they only ran in GWR and BR green, but Wikipedia appears to have a photo of one in black.

 

Again though, they'd be rather too big for a line like this, which is essentially a suburban commuter and freight branch. Maybe if you're after somewhere branch-line ish that has big engines and HSTs you'd be better off looking at a seaside terminus or passenger harbour.

[Pete the Elaner]

 if an HST could be painted BR Blue it will most likely be taking 4 or 5 Mk2s or 3s for a match.

HSTs ran in blue when introduced in 1976. They never ran with Mk2s though. They have only ever ran with Mk3s because their electrical systems are incompatible with anything else.

They seemed to have fixed 7+2 or 8+2 formations although I am sure there have been rare exceptions to this.

Edit: Above reply posted while I was typing this...

 

What is accurate & what looks reasonable in model form are not the same though. An 8+2 HST looks long on my layout (but it is accurate because it is  a model of a real WCML location, so it belongs there). A 6+2 HST would not look wrong though.

 

Likewise, a class 31 pulling 14 HEA hoppers looks like a long freight but in reality, this would be a short train.

 

You could always apply rule 1!

[Ed Winterbury]

The County I mean is the 4-4-0, made by Hornby Railroad with a DCC Chip in.