Pacific231G Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) Does anyone have any ideas for a terminus and through station? Dozens of them, so many and so specific that theyre unlikely to be of much help to you unless you're interested in region 3/4 of the SNCF in epoch III b . If you ask people for ideas they'll tell you what they'd like not what you'd like- that's something only you can determine. to help with that may I suggest a process that was developed many years ago by the leading American layout designer John Armstrong known as "Givens and Druthers" Givens are the constraints you are working under such as room size, door positions, whether the layout is to be portable or fixed and those you've imposed on yourself or which are imposed by your current level of skill which may include gauge, era, prototype, ready to lay or handbuilt track, possibly minimum radius that's acceptable to you (I now use nothing smaller than nominal three foot radius points in H0 but others are quite happy with Setrack) even the type of couplers - if you're know going to use three link couplings with a "shunting pole" then you won't want to be shunting a siding that's a two foot reach. Write the givens down in a list. Then come the Druthers - "The things I'd ruther have" (well John Armstrong was American). That's also a list, probably quite a long one, I'd quite like to run thirty wagon coal trains but there are other things that are far more important. I'd like a five platform main line terminus handling eight coach trains but if I have to I could settle with three platforms and six coaches. I love building buildings so I must have room for a townscape or I'm not interestedin anything beyond the railway fence. I must have a motive power depot to show off my locomotives- Nahh, the MPD can be off-stage I much prefer trains I want a large goods yard but a cramped one with three sidings will do. I definitely do want a continuous run to just watch the trains go by and I can sacrifice some shunting to have one. Shunting train at a terminus is what I really enjoy doing so I don't need a contnuous run. I really want a two track main line into my terminus even though that will cut the length of trains I can handle. I can live with a single track "main line" if that lets me run longer trains (Those are two druthers I'm faced with myself right now) There's a good, albeit American, explanation of the process here http://macrodyn.com/ldsig/wiki/index.php?title=Using_Givens_and_Druthers_to_guide_the_process Finally, if you wait until you've designed your perfect layout then you'll be waiting forever. While you're figuring out the layout you really want to build I'd seriously suggest getting your hands dirty by building a 4ft x 1ft baseboard, buying a couple of Peco medium radius Streamline points (or C&L kits for handbuilt points if that's where you think you're heading), two metres or so of flex track and building an Inglenook sidings in your chosen era and prototype. With that you can practice scenery, buildings, ballasting (ughh!). wiring, point operation (and finding out whether you prefer hand on or remote control) what type of couplers you want to use and above all what aspects of modelling you really enjoy. Whatever you go on to build It'll never be wasted as at the very least it'll always be available as a test track. . Edited November 8, 2017 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 Mightbe, somewhere along the line I dropped the French and UK Modern Image ideas off, in favour of 1950s/60s BR. Could you send me the track plans for Hayes and Sandgate, please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 So here is a list of desires, copying the 'template' Pacific 231G offered up I'd quite like to run 15 wagon trains, although this is easily compromisable. I'd like a four platform mainline terminus handling real-length trains but the minimus would be 5 coaches and 3 platforms. A fiddle yard is not required if I have enough on-scene storage space. I'd like a three or four line through station (similar to present day Kensington Olympia) handling real-length trains. I enjoy settlements so I must have room for a townscape (two or 3 streets are fine) and some limited landscaping. I must have a motive power depot to house my locomotives. A turntable is ideal but can be compromised if there's a facility to turn trains round. I want a goods yard with three sidings or more. I definitely want a continuous run to just watch the trains go by but this can be one-track with a loop. I want to avoid any duck-unders. Shunting is desirable, but as with the real thing will accommodate mainline services. Ideally, there will be an MPD/Carriage Sidings so that I can do some shunting. It is unlikely that it can be any longer than 15' or any wider than 8'. All my issues and desires are listed there. Although I may think of more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 I will be happy with 2nd and 3rd radius curves but prefer 4th radius and 5th radius if that existed... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 That's something to work with. What I would do is accept that you may not be able to have everything on your list & arrange it in order of importance. Is 15x8 available for a layout to fill it all or is this an L-shape? Is is worth considering that a big layout takes a lot longer to create. The more layout building experience you have, the more patient you are likely to be. It also depends on what you like doing. If you prefer running trains then you may not ever get it finished. I am building a layout right now which fills my 15x8 room. I could not have done this 10 years ago because I did not have the patience to see it through. I prefer building it to running it so I am quite happy to spend months creating buildings without any trains turning a wheel, but not everyone is like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Could you send me the track plans for Hayes and Sandgate, please? They are real places. As has already been mentioned in this very thread, you can do your own research by looking them up on old-maps.co.uk (also on maps.nls.uk) and - if the station no longer exists, like Sandgate - on the Disused Stations web site. And there's always Google - including the image search function, which can be useful for dredging up old photos of a location you're interested in, which can in turn be useful to verify/correct the information on OS maps which isn't always 100% accurate from a railway point of view. I'd not previously seen the layout design special interest group web site that Pacific231G linked to, but having taken a quick squiz I reckon you could do a lot worse than have a browse through the whole of the primer section of that site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 They are real places. As has already been mentioned in this very thread, you can do your own research by looking them up on old-maps.co.uk (also on maps.nls.uk) and - if the station no longer exists, like Sandgate - on the Disused Stations web site. And there's always Google - including the image search function, which can be useful for dredging up old photos of a location you're interested in, which can in turn be useful to verify/correct the information on OS maps which isn't always 100% accurate from a railway point of view. I feel compelled to endorse this response as I am more than a little concerned that these repeated requests for others to do basic research are at best time-wasting on pipe-dreams and potentially indicative of a subtle form of trolling where there is a delight in being a time bandit. I hope that others will also take the viewpoint that you have and 'Ed' can go and do his own research as there is no evidence anything done so far has lead to anything other than changes of mind/direction/tactic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 Well, I have scoured the NLS website silently, but the searches were not producing reasonable plans as they were either too big, too simple or had features too difficult to model. E.g. The Horley and Effingham Junction (It would encompass carriage sidings and a freight yard) idea was mine, but then I had that measuring cock-up. I have listed the 'givens and druthers' just now, which should hopefully help people point me in the right direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 which should hopefully help people point me in the right direction. Don't tempt me. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightbe Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 As a simple encouragement; I suggest producing a scaled track plan that has some of the features wanted. Only once you have something down can it be edited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Well, I have scoured the NLS website silently, but the searches were not producing reasonable plans as they were either too big, too simple or had features too difficult to model. E.g. The Horley and Effingham Junction (It would encompass carriage sidings and a freight yard) idea was mine, but then I had that measuring cock-up. I have listed the 'givens and druthers' just now, which should hopefully help people point me in the right direction. Your answers must come from within or else you will never have a layout you are satisfied with. We all have to make compromises. Which ones we choose determine what layout we build & how we build it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Well, I have scoured the NLS website silently, but the searches were not producing reasonable plans as they were either too big, too simple or had features too difficult to model. E.g. The Horley and Effingham Junction (It would encompass carriage sidings and a freight yard) idea was mine, but then I had that measuring cock-up. I have listed the 'givens and druthers' just now, which should hopefully help people point me in the right direction. I have been watching this thread over a period of time and still await results from all the very fulsome advice and information people are feeding in to you. I find it a bit difficult to know how best to help when any responses from the very helpful members on this excellent site simply result in another question from you. Where is the input taking you? Where are the progress photos of the un-braced MDF baseboards, etc, etc? What are you up to? My real concern is that in my browsing today I stumbled across the Readham thread and an alarm bell rang. You said in your entry on 19 October at 17:26 that you are trying to write a free magazine. It would be very sad if those who have been offering help with your modelling problems are having their time wasted by being unwitting assistants to another enterprise. If you need to know stuff, please do what we all do, and get books out of the library, use Google and YouTube, buy model magazines, and attend a few exhibitions where you can ask questions of the good folk operating their layouts. The greatest compliment you can pay them is to ask how they created such a lovely piece of work, be it the building of the humble fiddle yard or the fantastic rolling stock. Regretfully, I am withdrawing from trying to help with your thread and feel I need to call for a stewards' inquiry! aac 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) Ed, this link should contain all the information you'll ever need. I do hope it's of some use. I don't mean to be doubtful, but where exactly are you going with all these requests for information? It's probably about time for you to make your mind up what you want and maybe demonstrate some progress with perhaps a simple doodled track plan? Nobody can tell you what you want, only you can decide that, and after 17 pages, I think you probably have some ideas to work with now. Edited November 9, 2017 by Pete 75C 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 Well, I know the following: I have a moderate (read: small) space to pack a lot in, I am modelling the 1950s/60s BR Era and also have to contend with it being in the open plan kitchen space. To help with designs, can some people suggest solutions to the 'Givens and Druthers' please? In answer to AAC, I am an enthusiast who wants to make the pamphlet for his own model club. Imaginatively called 'MRM' (Model Railwayman), I have got very little done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 Pete, can you please send a plan over, it is similar to what I intend to do size-wise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted November 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2017 Ed, It's been several weeks since I suggested that you do the most basic operation required in designing your layout: Measure the space available. Neither guessing nor estimating from a low-res bitmap are good enough. You haven't posted that basic information here yet so how can we possibly help you? Are you just hoping that someone else's plan will have all the items on your wishlist and will magically fit into your kitchen? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted November 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2017 It is unlikely that it can be any longer than 15' or any wider than 8'. All my issues and desires are listed there. Although I may think of more. Have you sat down and considered how much space each if your requirements listed would take individually? Have you worked out how long a real length train or 15 wagon train would be? How much space would a townscape of 2 or 3 streets take? How big a mainline terminus might be? I know there are many space saving devices and ruses available to modellers but I can't help thinking that if you took some accurate measurements of the space you have available, got yourself some squared paper, and started sketching some of your own ideas to scale, it might give you a better idea of what you want and what is possible. It would also help others to help you. On a personal note, I find this constant give me, give me, give me, with very little input from yourself a little off putting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Well, I have scoured the NLS website silently, but the searches were not producing reasonable plans as they were either too big, too simple or had features too difficult to model. E.g. The Horley and Effingham Junction (It would encompass carriage sidings and a freight yard) idea was mine, but then I had that measuring cock-up. I have listed the 'givens and druthers' just now, which should hopefully help people point me in the right direction. The purpose of givens and druthers is to help you point yourself in the right direction for you. That won't be the right direction for anyone else even for someone who's come up with the same list. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted November 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2017 Well, I know the following: I have a moderate (read: small) space to pack a lot in, I am modelling the 1950s/60s BR Era and also have to contend with it being in the open plan kitchen space. To help with designs, can some people suggest solutions to the 'Givens and Druthers' please? In answer to AAC, I am an enthusiast who wants to make the pamphlet for his own model club. Imaginatively called 'MRM' (Model Railwayman), I have got very little done. If your in a model railway club, why are you not getting some practical help from the other members there? In my club, if a member is considering building a new layout they tend to bounce their ideas of the other members and then get on with it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Pete, can you please send a plan over, it is similar to what I intend to do size-wise. I don't have one on paper or in any program, because I am modelling a real location. If you want to see it, find South Hampstead on Google Earth. It misses out on several of the things you said you wanted: No goods shed/sidings, loco shed or turntable. There is no pointwork in the scenic section at all. These were compromises I was willing to make because I very much wanted a WCML layout of a real location. It took me the best part of a year to make the boards, lay the track & wire it up...& I have not started with the control panels yet. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 No pointwork and no operational interest??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 I will be going to my club tonight, but the interest in either perfectionist O, or N. There's nearly no interest in BR. (Other than the semi-defunct group for that ancient layout in the cupboard which has dispersed). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 Harlequin, as I haven't been to my holiday home since the summer, I can't measure up. I know I should, but I'm 75 miles away. I'm going to be sketching up today, so maybe my own Trax-made plans will start surfacing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 I'm just thinking out loud now: The terminus will be effectively a pure Minories plan with a single track throat, but the kickback will be sited onto Platform Two (the middle). I don't know how big carriage sidings or goods yards need to be. I have a good idea of my MPD: A two road shed with a kickback for coaling and water. Another siding would be available for diesel refuelling (is that prototypical?). The through station is fairly simple, with two platforms and one express loop (prototype: Kensington Olympia, layout example: Loftus Road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 No pointwork and no operational interest??? It depends on how you define Operational Interest. If this involves shunting & throwing points, then no. I do this on a friend's layout at exhibitions. My view of operational interest is driving Duchesses, AC Electrics & HSTs in their correct location. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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