Layout Help Please

[Chimer]

As drawn, about 8' x 2', possibly 6' x 1'6" but that would look cramped.

 

The least-space option for a depot in an L-shaped layout puts the turntable in the back corner with the main lines curving round in front of it.  And taking the shed roads directly off the turntable, though I'm not sure that's strictly prototypical if it means locos are stuck in the shed if the table goes u/s.

[ejstubbs]

The drawback is excess width.  Traversers are all about length width compromise.

 

This is true.  For clarity, though, can I just point out that the post you replied to recommended "cassettes (or a traverser in some circumstances)".  Cassettes do not have the extra width demands that traversers do.  You obviously have to have somewhere to put the cassettes but they can, for example, be put on shelves out of the way above the layout - in fact IIRC this was exactly what was shown in Chris Pendleton's article about cassettes in issue 27 of MRJ back in 1988 which is supposed to have started the whole idea.

 

The other thing to remember about the width requirement when using a traverser is that it needs space on both sides of the tracks leading to the scenic area - you can't have the tracks hard up against a wall.  Again, not an issue with cassettes.

 

If you're resigned to manhandling cassettes about then it's barely any more effort to make the power connections with fly leads and croc clips, especially if you're using Pendleton-style cassettes based on aluminium angle.  But there are many options for neater and slicker ways to achieve the desired result if that's your preference.

[Siberian Snooper]

This is true.  For clarity, though, can I just point out that the post you replied to recommended "cassettes (or a traverser in some circumstances)".  Cassettes do not have the extra width demands that traversers do.  You obviously have to have somewhere to put the cassettes but they can, for example, be put on shelves out of the way above the layout - in fact IIRC this was exactly what was shown in Chris Pendleton's article about cassettes in issue 27 of MRJ back in 1988 which is supposed to have started the whole idea.

 

The other thing to remember about the width requirement when using a traverser is that it needs space on both sides of the tracks leading to the scenic area - you can't have the tracks hard up against a wall.  Again, not an issue with cassettes.

 

If you're resigned to manhandling cassettes about then it's barely any more effort to make the power connections with fly leads and croc clips, especially if you're using Pendleton-style cassettes based on aluminium angle.  But there are many options for neater and slicker ways to achieve the desired result if that's your preference.

Bulldog clips work well with cassettes, helps both with alignment and the juice.

[Ed Winterbury]

I don't need any help with the traverser/fiddle yard (yet). I will work on the scenic section first, then turn my thoughts to the off-scene area. I will need a relatively large turntable since I plan to have some Co-Co diesel and large tender locos on there. Large tender locos such as a Britannia.

[Ed Winterbury]

Or a 9F

[Pete the Elaner]

A class 50 is probably the longest Co-Co. A class 40 is slightly longer, but being picky, this is a 1Co-Co1.

A Princess is longer than a 9F (& more elegant too, especially the 3rd one before it got cylinders ). An LMS Garrett is even longer, but you won't need to turn one of these.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Pete the Elaner

[Ed Winterbury]

I just need to turn a common loco, nothing special or fancy. A Princess seems like that, or a Class 40. What length of turntable do I need?

[The Johnster]

You will need a turntable that is as long as the wheelbase of your longest loco (including tender) plus an allowance of a couple of mm to clear the flanges of the leading and trailing wheels; the loco can overhang a little.  Sorry for the lack of definitive answer beyond that, but we do not know what locos you intend to turn.  A Princess is not what I'd have called a 'common' loco, a top link pacific and one of the longest locos in UK service; diesel class 40, and the 'Peak' classes were very long, too, as were Class 52 Westerns, but of course diesels don't need to be turned.  IIRC the longest turntables in common use were 70 foot, with many places having much smaller ones than that.  70 feet in 00 is about 281mm, not far short of a foot imperial.  One of the reasons some railways in the 1920s were reluctant to adopt locos larger than 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s was the lack of suitable tables and space to provide them without major expenditure and rebuilding.

 

The simplest answer is to fit the biggest turntable you have room for without fouling the running lines or retaining walls with the overhang of the locomotives.  You will be able to run any class of loco you want, but any too big for the 'table will have to run tender first light engine off the layout to be turned 'elsewhere', perhaps this could be an extra element to your operations.

[Siberian Snooper]

I just need to turn a common loco, nothing special or fancy. A Princess seems like that, or a Class 40. What length of turntable do I need?

Why would you need to turn a diesel? They tend to have a cab at each end.

[Chimer]

Why would you need to turn a diesel? They tend to have a cab at each end.

 

That was my first thought, then I thought the turntable might need to be used to access the shed roads in a corner situation, so decided not to quibble   

[Ed Winterbury]

Are there any suggestions for a large turntable? Through the above chat, you can easily find out the length (1 foot)

[Pete the Elaner]

You don't have much choice regarding turntable size, unless you want to build it from scratch.

 

You can search for them on a retailer's web site. I found 4 on Hattons: Heljan, Hornby, Peco & Dapol.

Hornby's looks like it is the only one which sits on top of the board but the other 3 look more realistic.

[Ed Winterbury]

I have a Dapol kit, but can't get my head around how to make it, any suggestions?

[Ed Winterbury]

I might also just scratch build a small turntable, has anyone got ideas?

[Crewlisle]

I might also just scratch build a small turntable, has anyone got ideas?

 

Ed,

 

Forget it!  I consider myself a good craftsman & you cannot cut a turn table disc accurately enough by hand.  When I made my 75ft turntable many years ago (before the Peco turn table was available) I was fortunate to have access to a proper lathe to turn an accurate hole for a clearance of about 1 mm between the table & the edge of the opening.  It is hand operated through 57:1 Meccano gearing from either inside or outside the layout central operating well.  Very popular with children having a go at exhibitions!

 

Peter 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Crewlisle

[Pete the Elaner]

Even before I read the above, I would not fancy scratch building a turntable.

I certainly would not want to have a try after reading the above ... unless I was modelling a real location & it had something so different to what is available off the shelf that I could not modify it.

 

From your previous questions, it sounds like this is a first or second layout. You will soon lose enthusiasm if you decide to do something complicated which slows down your build.

Keep it fairly simple & achievable. You will enjoy it a lot more if you can see steady progress.

[Ed Winterbury]

Ok, so maybe I'm going to get a Peco one.

[RJS1977]

I have a Dapol kit, but can't get my head around how to make it, any suggestions?

 

There should be some instructions in the packet.... ;-)

 

Seriously though, when I built my turntable, I just glued the girders (and some of the other details) to a length of ply of the correct dimensions, drilled a hole through the middle (in which I inserted the drive shaft from one of the Frizinghall motorising sets (a little noisy!), and a length of brass strip under the deck at each end. Then I laid a length of track on top of the deck and wired each strip to one rail.

 

In the turntable well, I laid two semicircles of N gauge rail for the brass strips to rub on and connected one rail to each side of the controller. That way, when the turntable reverses, so does the polarity.

[ejstubbs]

From your previous questions, it sounds like this is a first or second layout. You will soon lose enthusiasm if you decide to do something complicated which slows down your build.

Keep it fairly simple & achievable. You will enjoy it a lot more if you can see steady progress.

 

I would agree with this.  You could spend a lot of time and effort making a turntable work - or indeed failing to make it work - time and effort that would be better spent finishing the main part of the layout and operating trains.  The turntable can always come later if your initial design allows space that can be appropriately repurposed.

 

My strong recommendation at this stage would be to go with Johnster's suggestion of a servicing point in the scenic area (possibly including a shed for a station pilot) with tender locos being sent offscene for turning as was very common at stations with space restrictions - which is, after all, what the original Minories was supposed to represent.  It's easy to turn tender locos in the fiddle yard using the Peco loco lift.  There is a discussion about using loco lifts in the fiddle yard from this post onwards in the "00 Minories track plan wanted" thread.

 

(Note that my preference is to retain the foam sides on my Peco loco lifts, rather than replace them with stripwood per imt's suggestion.  I find the foam sides to be quite robust enough for normal handling - in fact I hardly ever touch the sides, I use the...er...handles at each end.   And I prefer to have something soft for the loco to topple against if I do manage to do something a little clumsy.)

 

One last point: don't get tied up trying to shoehorn something that you've already bought into your design.   Sometimes it's better to admit a mistake and cut your losses.  That's what eBay is for.  (And if the item in question was a bargain at the time you bought it, you might even end up in profit!)

Edited September 22, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Ed Winterbury]

I will just make a circle with N Gauge track and wheelsets, before mounting a piece of balsa on. Would this work?

[The Johnster]

It might be worth doing as an exercise to see how the turntable would fit, but balsa isn't strong or rigid enough to be a base for an operating turntable; you need ply.  And a circle of N gauge track with N gauge bogies carrying the ends of the turntable does not address how you are going to arrange the central shaft and drive mechanism, nor would it remotely resemble any real turntable I am aware of.  You would need to cut the curved track in half along it's length, leaving you with two radii of single rail pieces of slightly different radii; keep them separate.  Then you would have a choice of a slightly smaller and slightly larger radius than the nominal N gauge set track radius, whatever that is.  These would then have to be laid very accurately to 'gauge'; the diameter of the circle.

 

And it is at that point that your plan falls down, I'm afraid, young Padawan.  Laying the circle with complete accuracy is vital to the smooth running of your turntable and next to impossible to achieve.  My advice, FWIW, would be for now to stick with the Dapol 'table, and use the plastic runner track for that, possibly strengthening it underneath with ply but plenty of people use the kit as it is without trouble.  I have never built one so cannot advise on how to make it operate, but there are plenty of thread contributors here who will be able to.  

 

But, to be honest, I wouldn't put a turntable on a Minories layout in the first place; it's not part of the original concept and takes a lot of what is a very limited space!

[Siberian Snooper]

If this is your first attempt at layout building, I would suggest you keep it simple and get something up and running. It will give you more than enough of a learning curve and a chance to learn and practice a variety of new skills, without the complexities of turntable construction, by all means make some passive provision for it. I would never expect the first couple of layouts to be the last major project. I doubt that you will be satisfied with your first attempts, I certainly wasn't and even now some 50 years on I am still critical of what I am producing and dismantle or scrap something I am not happy with.

 

Learn to walk before you try running, but still expect to fall flat on your face from time to time, be your own worst critic if you want to progress. It's not the destination, but the journey that counts. Remember to have some fun along the way.

[The Johnster]

What Siberian said.  Especially the last sentence!

[Ed Winterbury]

I see I'll take that in mind!

[Ed Winterbury]

I understand the issues with a rail-mounted turntable, but motor bogies to which a piece of ply is glued may??? work. I'd like some help if there is any that can be given.