XC Franchise Extension

[D854_Tiger]

By all accounts materially no different to the existing franchise.

 

What a wasted opportunity, especially with all those HSTs about to become spare.

[Covkid]

Speaking as an "old hand" railwayman (39 years) IMHO the biggest issue is that the DfT cannot decide the role XC should take in passenger franchising.

 

But to start with the DfT clearly no longer expect the industry to supply a good quality INTERCITY product to the customers, simply because the rolling stock is not now fitted out for it. Perhaps new comfort levels can longer legally match what we used to have because of fire safety and crashworthines standards ? Take a look at a modern car and note how much smaller the side windows now are compared to those lovely picture windows we had of yore. Something to do with safety and keeping the passengers locked in safe in their aluminium structure with high back ironing board seats - whilst cramming as many punters into the saloons as possible.

 

Back to XC though and what do the journeys consist of ? We are told it is predominantly leisure and workers with some school attenders too, and a smaller smattering of business users. Well I happen to think there are a large number of commuters at certain times of the day too. So say you are a leisure traveler travelling say Berwick on Tweed to Taunton. You would like a resonable amount of space and comfort in order to relax and enjoy the journey. But you are not going to get that if your train becomes a commuter service between York and Leeds, Leeds and Wakefield, and Wakefield and Sheffield. Then again between Chesterfield and Derby and Derby and Brum etc etc.

 

Would you expect the kind of long distance service that I believe DB does or used to with it's "Fernvekehr". Should you ticket the commuters off onto their own services so that those punters who choose to travel long distance in INTERCITY comfort can pay the pricer to do so ?   

 

Then there is the small matter of industrial diesel engines rattlin and vibratin away under the carpet. Is it really acceptable to have to pay premium ticket prices for the cacaphony of Cummins ?

[D854_Tiger]

Speaking as an "old hand" railwayman (39 years) IMHO the biggest issue is that the DfT cannot decide the role XC should take in passenger franchising.

 

But to start with the DfT clearly no longer expect the industry to supply a good quality INTERCITY product to the customers, simply because the rolling stock is not now fitted out for it. Perhaps new comfort levels can longer legally match what we used to have because of fire safety and crashworthines standards ? Take a look at a modern car and note how much smaller the side windows now are compared to those lovely picture windows we had of yore. Something to do with safety and keeping the passengers locked in safe in their aluminium structure with high back ironing board seats - whilst cramming as many punters into the saloons as possible.

 

Back to XC though and what do the journeys consist of ? We are told it is predominantly leisure and workers with some school attenders too, and a smaller smattering of business users. Well I happen to think there are a large number of commuters at certain times of the day too. So say you are a leisure traveler travelling say Berwick on Tweed to Taunton. You would like a resonable amount of space and comfort in order to relax and enjoy the journey. But you are not going to get that if your train becomes a commuter service between York and Leeds, Leeds and Wakefield, and Wakefield and Sheffield. Then again between Chesterfield and Derby and Derby and Brum etc etc.

 

Would you expect the kind of long distance service that I believe DB does or used to with it's "Fernvekehr". Should you ticket the commuters off onto their own services so that those punters who choose to travel long distance in INTERCITY comfort can pay the pricer to do so ?   

 

Then there is the small matter of industrial diesel engines rattlin and vibratin away under the carpet. Is it really acceptable to have to pay premium ticket prices for the cacaphony of Cummins ?

 

I hear what you're saying but I was merely thinking some extra seats seats might be a good idea, wherever they are travelling to and for whatever reason.

 

A few extra HSTs could do that.

[black and decker boy]

By all accounts materially no different to the existing franchise.

 

What a wasted opportunity, especially with all those HSTs about to become spare.

From the article in Modern Railways, there will be extra sets in service.

 

I don't think there are many spare HSTs until 2019 now, all of the GWR ones go to Scotrail over then next 12/18months before the GWR GTi conversions get done.

 

Some speculation that VTEC need to retain their HSTs longer due to power upgrades north of Newcastle having been cancelled/postponed meaning IET may have problems.

 

EMT need their HSTs for a while yet but seemingly they are in poor condition so don't warrant the upgrades with power doors.

[RfDforever]

XC are seen by some as "the ORCATS raiding TOC" - a fair bit of the point-to-point passenger flows are shared with other TOCs and therefore XC receive a share of revenue between those points based solely on service timings. Perhaps someone with a more up-to-date knowledge of ORCATS than me can explain how, or if,  revenue sharing reflects the ability of services to actually convey the passenger numbers and thereby revenue allocated.

A cynic might see that there is no incentive in providing longer trains because the revenue allocation would be the same. XC has no booking offices or stations, as far as I know. There's probably a technical description for this sort of business model, although the cynic (again) might think of a quite scurrilous one...

[Oldddudders]

Speaking as an "old hand" railwayman (39 years) 

 

Then there is the small matter of industrial diesel engines rattlin and vibratin away under the carpet. Is it really acceptable to have to pay premium ticket prices for the cacaphony of Cummins ?

 

I only did 38 years (1966-2004) but frankly my trips on Voyagers are by no means hell. Yes, I travel free in first class, but you do discover things en route Paignton to New St. And frankly the environment isn't that bad. Compared to driving, Sherry and I find it a no-brainer. Perhaps I have softened in my old age. After all, my first trip in a 158, circa 1991, from Norwich to Peterborough, was a bit of an informer in that the underfloor engine was discernible, something my daily commute on a mechanically 1950s-design 4-CEP EMU didn't provide. Yes, HSTs are in some ways superior, but I find more internal issues with e.g. vestibule doors flying and staying open on FGW HSTs than I do on XC Voyagers. The XC staff are kinda homely. We like them. 

 

And XC, in the days before Sectors and route branding, when it was simply North East - South West, was always the pain in everyone's arse. After all, it cut across the routes to London everywhere, and the London-centric system didn't enjoy that then or now. Curiously, from one who didn't relish privatisation, the separation of infrastructure and trains may have given XC a better chance of decent operating than it had ever had. It is an ill wind.....

[andy stroud]

I only did 38 years (1966-2004) but frankly my trips on Voyagers are by no means hell. Yes, I travel free in first class, but you do discover things en route Paignton to New St. And frankly the environment isn't that bad. Compared to driving, Sherry and I find it a no-brainer. Perhaps I have softened in my old age. After all, my first trip in a 158, circa 1991, from Norwich to Peterborough, was a bit of an informer in that the underfloor engine was discernible, something my daily commute on a mechanically 1950s-design 4-CEP EMU didn't provide. Yes, HSTs are in some ways superior, but I find more internal issues with e.g. vestibule doors flying and staying open on FGW HSTs than I do on XC Voyagers. The XC staff are kinda homely. We like them. 

 

And XC, in the days before Sectors and route branding, when it was simply North East - South West, was always the pain in everyone's arse. After all, it cut across the routes to London everywhere, and the London-centric system didn't enjoy that then or now. Curiously, from one who didn't relish privatisation, the separation of infrastructure and trains may have given XC a better chance of decent operating than it had ever had. It is an ill wind.....

 

Seeing as a first class ticket from Paignton to New Street costs about £230 single, I am not surprised that you find little to complain about when you get it for free. If you had to do the journey in standard cattle class and get completely ripped off at the same time,  you may not find the experience quite so agreeable.

[Robert Shrives]

Re the fare quoted XC only sets the fair CNM - BHM the rest is a GWR created fair structure and with fare splitting bagains in all classes can be had by booking ahead . However the DAFT bid system favours passengers over fares and XC lead the market with enhanced reservations and cheap on the day advance bookings. The installation of Wifi and charging will keep folk amused for ages  but it is part of the franchise change for all to make interwebthingy stuff available to entertain all and divert folk with pictures of cats over hard news on Bexit !!! ho hum.

 

Franchise extension is just that given DAFT now specify to the last nut and bolt and just about tell bidders how to breathe there is little point in commercial enterprise for new/ more  stock and funnily the London centric behaviour still exsists so stock is just not on the market and since the cascade is about to unravel XC is at least in a stable position. - HST door modes are reported as late but once Wabtec into the swing it will hopefully sort itself out.

 

Before Xc was a cost centre then the service was a bit shabby, but no worse than in post 1923 times seen through rose spec- my dad tells of regularly train 2hrs late from North East to Bristol, broken connections and timetable changes to make last trains unuseable.

Now we have a 30 minute service (NR allowing) Bristol - Newcastle and Reading - Manchester.  From the timetable change it is expected to expand core in south to Exeter and more to Southmapton, albeit to the expense of Paignton.

 

The only serious expansion on the cheap will be if XC got VT 221s and VT got Bimodes new.

I love HSTs but with just a few circuits covered and with depots just keeping them going due to lack of down time, staff and perhaps motivation over work loads are increasingly a liability, plus the lack of rescue ability a mega meltdown is just around the corner.

 

Given that DAFT is just that and railways are broke and we have successfully given up European development funding I cannot see XC getting a boost for several franchise changes. Of course DAFT can and do meddle with the rules ad XC has been slated to disappear into a greater EMT operation - just like how it was mainly managed in OFQ . Plus ripping out Stansted/ Leicester  services to another operator (EMT) thus a stroke removing a tool of recovery when it goes wrong as currently pack shuffling possible with the Nottingham - Cardiff axis as crews and units will have a change of colour- you can faff as much as you like but below a critical mass of operations you can only fail the public - esp when it goes wrong...

Robert                    

[D854_Tiger]

I only did 38 years (1966-2004) but frankly my trips on Voyagers are by no means hell. Yes, I travel free in first class, but you do discover things en route Paignton to New St. And frankly the environment isn't that bad. Compared to driving, Sherry and I find it a no-brainer. Perhaps I have softened in my old age. After all, my first trip in a 158, circa 1991, from Norwich to Peterborough, was a bit of an informer in that the underfloor engine was discernible, something my daily commute on a mechanically 1950s-design 4-CEP EMU didn't provide. Yes, HSTs are in some ways superior, but I find more internal issues with e.g. vestibule doors flying and staying open on FGW HSTs than I do on XC Voyagers. The XC staff are kinda homely. We like them. 

 

And XC, in the days before Sectors and route branding, when it was simply North East - South West, was always the pain in everyone's arse. After all, it cut across the routes to London everywhere, and the London-centric system didn't enjoy that then or now. Curiously, from one who didn't relish privatisation, the separation of infrastructure and trains may have given XC a better chance of decent operating than it had ever had. It is an ill wind.....

 

 

Nice to see someone speak up for the Voyagers, I use them from Brum to Newcastle quite regularly and also to Bristol Parkway. I've met plenty of people in the first class that tell me they hadn't used trains in years (preferring the company car) till Virgin came along, revolutionising the XC network and have made the switch to train a permanent no brainer since wi-fi was rolled out.

 

Once a Voyager is up to speed they are a revelation, I recently did Euston to Chester on a tilting one and that was like the proverbial off a shovel.

 

The PAX do like them, as the tickets being sold testifies, but they were a victim of their own success and we all know they needed to be longer.

 

For me the game changer for DMU design was the Turbostar, everything before the Turbostar was just a DMU and all that went with it. With sprinterisation of the railway (class 150, 155, 156) we surely had one of the blackest periods ever on our railways as five and six coach loco haulage was replaced by two cars of rattle and groan. It seemed as if someone wanted to finally kill off the passenger railway by making them unusable for civilised human beings.

 

With the class 158 I thought maybe DMUs were getting there but the Turbostar and Voyagers convinced me the DMU (DEMU) concept could be made to work for long distance inter-city travel.

 

We now seem to have come full circle with the IEP finally D(E)MUs that can offer a decent travelling ambience, speed and comfort but with plenty of carriages this time.

 

As for the technical and environmental benefit of slinging engines under the carriages rather than locomotive haulage, I believe more than five coaches is the point at which loco makes more sense for diesel but the technology is getting better all the time in support of the DMU concept, to the point soon surely where locos will no longer make any sense.

 

I suspect, for electric, the distributed power EMU is already the concept now well proven for the future, Japan has virtually an entire railway operated by them.

 

Yes as an enthusiast I would prefer the leading coach and the sound of a Sulzer screaming out but what pleases me far more is to see the railways going through a time of renaissance when for so long it seemed as if no one believed in them anymore.

 

If to do that means DMUs and EMUs, then so be it, besides, as Japan has shown, multiple units can be sexy, the enthusiasts over there turn out in their thousands to see the final runs of the older classes.

[Oldddudders]

Seeing as a first class ticket from Paignton to New Street costs about £230 single, I am not surprised that you find little to complain about when you get it for free. If you had to do the journey in standard cattle class and get completely ripped off at the same time,  you may not find the experience quite so agreeable.

 

I was responding to the comment about underfloor powerplants, which AFAIK are identical in first and steerage cars. 

[D854_Tiger]

In the longer term I suspect XC will eventually get a build of IEPs bi mode would make a lot of sense on that network maybe more so than on the Midland Main Line.

 

Didn't XC get HSTs before the Midland Main Line got them or is my memory playing tricks.

[Zomboid]

The thing with DMUs is that it varies where in the carriage you are. If you're sitting on top of the engine, it's awful. Doesn't matter what type of train it is, it's noisy and the vibrations are intrusive and annoying.

If you're sitting over the bogies though, it's a different story, particularly if the exhaust is at the far end of the carriage. It can be quite pleasant there.

LHCS (and EMUs, unless you're under the pan) don't have that issue, they're quiet throughout.

[eastwestdivide]

...Didn't XC get HSTs before the Midland Main Line got them or is my memory playing tricks.

Yes, but only by a year or two. Early 1980s I photographed the first HSTs through Leicester on service trains - a timetabled Sunday diversion of NE/SW cross-country services. 

[Covkid]

I was responding to the comment about underfloor powerplants, which AFAIK are identical in first and steerage cars. 

 

 

I believe they are.

The issue of course is that the XC route west of Bristol will never be electrified, so what ever service the XC franchise provide will need to be diesel or a derivative. If IETs or Flirts ever replace voyagers there will always need to be dual powered diesel variants to run the services. The power car in the Flirt would be an attractive option for me.

[D854_Tiger]

I believe they are.

The issue of course is that the XC route west of Bristol will never be electrified, so what ever service the XC franchise provide will need to be diesel or a derivative. If IETs or Flirts ever replace voyagers there will always need to be dual powered diesel variants to run the services. The power car in the Flirt would be an attractive option for me.

 

I like to believe one day electrification will reach Plymouth, at least, and also like to believe that whoever champions the idea will also see sense and electrify the route via Bristol rather than via Wetbury.

 

Indeed, surely it's only a matter of time before Bristol - Taunton is upgraded for 125 mph running and then it becomes a no-brainer to send everything via Bristol.

 

The Westbury route is important nowadays, lots of long distance commuters, but only in the same way that the Cotswold line is, no need for West County trains to go that way anymore.

[black and decker boy]

No need to electrify beyond the current planned limits on GWML for the next 27 years now that IET has a full set of Diesel engines

 

I think widespread electrification in England is over for a generation. HS2 relieves the need for MML intercity electrification and if base costs have gone up (assuming cost overruns on GWML represent some actual baseline increases as well as covering inept execution) the making a business case for the electric spine or cross country network will be nigh on impossible.

 

As for wires ever reaching Plymouth, I can't see ever happening unless it's paid for locally.

[D854_Tiger]

No need to electrify beyond the current planned limits on GWML for the next 27 years now that IET has a full set of Diesel engines

 

I think widespread electrification in England is over for a generation. HS2 relieves the need for MML intercity electrification and if base costs have gone up (assuming cost overruns on GWML represent some actual baseline increases as well as covering inept execution) the making a business case for the electric spine or cross country network will be nigh on impossible.

 

As for wires ever reaching Plymouth, I can't see ever happening unless it's paid for locally.

 

Just because one government or another cancels electrification projects doesn't mean it's cast in stone.

 

The delays and cost escalation have made that decision very easy for this government but once some kind of rolling program is up and running it would be mad not to make further use of it, probably without so much of the cost escalation next time.

 

A lot will depend on the fare box, if the new services bring about a surge in that, coupled with the benefit of lower operating costs then much could change.

 

Also always best to remember the political life-cycle, announcements of the electrification kind are best kept for closer to an election, not wasted now at the beginning of what looks likely to be a government hanging on for the full five years.

 

I've lived through governments like this before, when everyone claims another election is just around the corner but it's never worked out that way, in the past, the Tories won't be tempted to go early unless they believe they can win an outright majority and we just had that idea tested to destruction.

 

The political wind always changes, what Grayling recently announced was just bowing to the inevitable anyway because all those electrification promises were clearly promises that have turned out to be beyond deliverable.

 

The economic case for electrification is always pretty sound, in the longer term, and, with practice, Network Rail should (might) get it right eventually though you do have my permission to laugh on that at the moment.

[lmsforever]

Reading the news in Modern Railways I am glad that I don't have to use this company it is really a franchise that other companies could cover okay change of trains would be required but people would cope.Also the rolling stock would help fill shortages in other franchises who need it to provide customers with seats and also extend services so win win situation.  

[andy stroud]

I think that the voyagers would be quite good on  the Cardiff Portsmouth route.

[black and decker boy]

Reading the news in Modern Railways I am glad that I don't have to use this company it is really a franchise that other companies could cover okay change of trains would be required but people would cope.Also the rolling stock would help fill shortages in other franchises who need it to provide customers with seats and also extend services so win win situation.

So what happens to all the current passengers if you suddenly remove cross country workings and hand out he voyagers willy nilly?

Which TOCs are short of stock after 2020 with the thousands of new build units being introduced and many of the displaced units not yet taken?

[wombatofludham]

Reading the news in Modern Railways I am glad that I don't have to use this company it is really a franchise that other companies could cover okay change of trains would be required but people would cope.Also the rolling stock would help fill shortages in other franchises who need it to provide customers with seats and also extend services so win win situation.  

 

Except people won't cope with changing trains.  It's something that enthusiasts and some railway people forget because they are used to making complicated multi-leg journeys but Joe and Joanna Numpty, new to train travel, more used to point to point journeys in their car or on Ryanjet to the Costa Chav, are terrified of changing trains because they worry about missing connections, getting on the wrong train (and how many platform staff have been asked "Is this the train for..." despite it having an electronic display on the platform saying where it is going?  People don't trust information systems) or being stranded somewhere because they missed a connection or it didn't turn up.  I have relatives who have NEVER used a train because they might get on the wrong train or don't know how the system works.  I've even had degree educated friends make a multi-leg journey with two changes but didn't realise you could get a through ticket, and nearly missed one connection because they had dashed out into the booking office to buy a ticket for the next leg.

 

Never under-estimate Joe and Joanna Numpty's ability to make life complicated by their inexperience.

[Andrew Young]

The big problem with franchise extensions is that you just get more of the same. The only way to get any form of innovation or extra seats is through a long term let franchise.

 

The big issue is that the DfT don't seem to know what to do with the XC franchise. It's too busy to get rid of and too expensive and faffy to keep as it is.

 

Like them or hate them, the 22x fleet is here to stay, whilst the enthusiasts don't like them, the regular punters do. They're quicker than HSTs and far cheaper to run so the operators like them too.

 

Personally, think the WC franchise missed a trick with not replacing the 221 fleet with bi-mode trains. And reckon you'll see bi-mode trains on WC or MML before you see them on XC!

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Zomboid]

The big fault with 22x trains is that there are not enough of them, and the mixture of 4 and 5 car sets means that it's not uncommon for a 4 car to show up on a service where 5 isn't enough.

 

As for the franchise, it certainly fulfills a need. For example the Reading to Birmingham corridor is actually really busy, I've often stood for the whole journey. Take XC away without doing anything else and it becomes a 3 legged trip where Banbury to Oxford is once every 3 hours on an all stations 2 car. I'm sure a lot of XC routes do something similar.

[Andrew Young]

Agree with Zomboid about there not being enough 22x trains, shame the money wasn't originally spent on more vehicles rather than on tilt....

 

Like them or hate them, the reliability and clock face timetable that came with Voyagers has resulted in a large upsurge in passenger numbers since their introduction 15 years ago.

 

It wouldn't take too many of the currently VWC 221 units if they were replaced by new bi-modal trains to solve XC's overcrowding out.

 

Andrew

[The Stationmaster]

I only did 38 years (1966-2004) but frankly my trips on Voyagers are by no means hell. Yes, I travel free in first class, but you do discover things en route Paignton to New St. And frankly the environment isn't that bad. Compared to driving, Sherry and I find it a no-brainer. Perhaps I have softened in my old age. After all, my first trip in a 158, circa 1991, from Norwich to Peterborough, was a bit of an informer in that the underfloor engine was discernible, something my daily commute on a mechanically 1950s-design 4-CEP EMU didn't provide. Yes, HSTs are in some ways superior, but I find more internal issues with e.g. vestibule doors flying and staying open on FGW HSTs than I do on XC Voyagers. The XC staff are kinda homely. We like them. 

 

And XC, in the days before Sectors and route branding, when it was simply North East - South West, was always the pain in everyone's arse. After all, it cut across the routes to London everywhere, and the London-centric system didn't enjoy that then or now. Curiously, from one who didn't relish privatisation, the separation of infrastructure and trains may have given XC a better chance of decent operating than it had ever had. It is an ill wind.....

 

I'm not over keen on Voyagers as they tend to be noisy and still suffer from some of the appalling engine vibration they had in their early days but they were a pretty fair step forward from the NE-Sw stock they replaced (apart from the truncated HSTs.   But they certainly aren't restful on some long journeys - such as the WCML where they seem to be distinctly at odds with the track at times generating some rather alarming riding.   NE-SW is not so bad as sustained speeds are lower and generally the track seems better than the WCML where they do run fast.