When TT3 was the next Big Thing

[Golden Fleece 30]

Garry, you've put your finger on the fact that many proprietary buildings marketed for "00" have been selectively "shrunk", presumably to fit "everyman's" layout where room for non-railway items is at a premium. And if the layout builder can fit three buildings in a space which would, if they were true scale, fit only two, that's even better for sales. I suspect that the plastic "Hansel and Gretel" Faller buildings, which were everywhere in the 60s and 70s, were also underscale for "H0". (Do you have battered, poorly made, glue-smeared examples, with hopeful price labels, sitting on the second-hand sales tables at exhibitions, as seems to be the case at every show in this country?)

 

I think too that modellers have got used to this distortion of scale, hence the modelling cliches of tiny trees and pocket handkerchief sized fields which we see so often. (I see that the previous owner of your layout was also a user of dyed lichen, used in the 50s and 60s to simulate shrubbery before the advent of Woodland Scenics materials.) 

 

The good news, as your photos nicely demonstrate, is that many of the supposedly "00" items fit very well on your TT3 layout, better than the buildings supposedly to 3mm scale.  The Bilteezi signal cabin definitely looks too small, and the supposedly 4mm/ft Skaledale models look spot on. I wonder if the Bilteezi cabin were planted on underlay the same thickness as that under the track, it would look a bit more to scale. On my 00 "scale" layout the track (SMP plain track and copperclad pointwork) is laid on American "Midwest" rubberised cork roadbed.  Prior to ballasting I was playing around with the siting of a Prototype Models card signal cabin which, supposedly to scale, didn't look right at all, especially if stock was on the adjacent track. The light bulb went on when I realised that the cabin was sitting on the baseboard, about a scale 4 feet below the rail head.  Putting it on an appropriate base, later covered in ground material, transformed its visual proportions. The photo below shows the "after" scene.  Unfortunately I didn't take a "before" picture. (Apologies. Another 4mm photo on a TT3 thread.)

P1010975 Trains.JPG

You can see that the steam shed in the background still needs to be "jacked up".

 

Also on mixed scale buildings, on my layout I am using American "HO" buildings, heavily "anglicised", for an urban area on the far side of the tracks.  They fit well and give a little bit of forced perspective.  That might be a role for your non-railway Bilteezi items, like the stone hotel I can spot on the road behind the station.  They are true to the TT3 period if not exactly to scale.

 

The Country Scenes embossed paper certainly looks the part, and if it comes in larger sheets than Faller, then I will be investigating further. You're developing a unique and interesting layout there Garry, and I'm following your progress with interest.  No chance of that "sameness" in this case!

 

Now, back to the Dublo Class 20 which I'm converting to 3 rail and which should appear on the Hornby Dublo Forum in a day or two.

 

Mike 

Hi Mike, The signal box etc were glued to the cork that the track was laid on so at the standard height as such but to me all aspects of the  building look too small, it was the same for the even smaller one where the stand alone one is now.  The pub is reasonable size and will possibly stay but the school has also been replaced with a Skaledale one as can be seen.  This was delivered broken into about 5 main pieces (poor packing but with a refund) but I have glued it back and put "moss" on to hide the joins and it looks fine now, I did put a little more "moss" around though.  Schools, like churches, can be very big, the one I went to had ceilings nearly as tall as a two storey house so the 00 should be fine. Regarding the station building here it is with a waiting room along side which is supposed to be the same scale from the same manufacturer but is way out of proportion.  Regarding the Lichen used the previous owner did that intentionally as he built the layout in the style and with with 50's/60's items.  I will be using static grass etc later to improve it all.

 

Your signal box look really well, as does the layout seen.  It looks like you have weathered it a little which certainly improves it.  I never bought any of the Prototype kits, don't remember why not as I had a go at most things of that era.

 

I will photograph the card sizes later but going out now for some card for new platforms and the roads.

 

Garry

Edited November 21, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Mike,

 

Here is the Skaledale church which has just been delivered and this is probably slightly smaller than the Bilteezi, certainly very little in it.  Also is the comparison of Faller card with the Country Scenes paper, here is his site,  https://www.facebook.com/CountryScenes/ On there is also some work by Bob Dawson who I used to work with on the railway many moons ago.  I think the Country scenes paper is about 3 times cheaper than Faller card but not 100% certain, plus more for your money anyway.  The e-mail for the Country scenes chap is  martin.s.wood@gmail.com

 

I also bought a sub station to add to the layout somewhere along the road.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

The 2 four wheeled parcels vans are now repainted, just awaiting some modified Tri-ang couplings to fit.

 

Garry

 

[NCB]

Height of doors is a useful way of working out the scale of a building. Those which the general public passes through seem to be in the range 6'6" - 7'6". Some railway buildings, e.g. signal boxes, sometimes seem to have something a bit smaller, e.g. 6'.  I have a signal box drawing in which the doors are about 5'6", which I reckon is pushing it.

 

I've heard that Bachmann  OO buildings are about right for 4mm/ft, but Hornby ones are often a bit smaller. I bought a Metcalfe Brunel wayside station in both 4mm and 2mm, wondering if one would do for 3mm, but they seem to be right for those scales.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Height of doors is a useful way of working out the scale of a building. Those which the general public passes through seem to be in the range 6'6" - 7'6". Some railway buildings, e.g. signal boxes, sometimes seem to have something a bit smaller, e.g. 6'.  I have a signal box drawing in which the doors are about 5'6", which I reckon is pushing it.

 

I've heard that Bachmann  OO buildings are about right for 4mm/ft, but Hornby ones are often a bit smaller. I bought a Metcalfe Brunel wayside station in both 4mm and 2mm, wondering if one would do for 3mm, but they seem to be right for those scales.

I just go by what looks reasonable Nigel.  Just look at the difference between the waiting room and the station building above, both are classed as 00 yet look completely different.  Regarding a church and school, 1mm to the foot makes no real difference anyway as church doors are way over 7'6.  The one near us is about 15' with a standard one inset.  The school I went to only had two floors and you can see from the photo how high the second one is. The end part of the building had 3 floors, the centre floor here was one was one office and a store room only.  I don't think we could even see out of the windows in the junior school so ceiling/roof height wise makes the 00 one perfectly acceptable.

 

Garry

Edited November 21, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30

[St Enodoc]

Hi Mike,

 

Here is the Skaledale church which has just been delivered and this is probably slightly smaller than the Bilteezi, certainly very little in it.  Also is the comparison of Faller card with the Country Scenes paper, here is his site,  https://www.facebook.com/CountryScenes/ On there is also some work by Bob Dawson who I used to work with on the railway many moons ago.  I think the Country scenes paper is about 3 times cheaper than Faller card but not 100% certain, plus more for your money anyway.  The e-mail for the Country scenes chap is  martin.s.wood@gmail.com

 

I also bought a sub station to add to the layout somewhere along the road.

 

Garry

Bob "Mr Computer Chad" Dawson - what a fine modeller and excellent chap.

[MikeCW]

Hi Garry

 

Thank you for the full responses, photos and the steer to Country Scenes. If I'm a bit quiet for a while (applause!) it's because I'm back to doing rather than writing.  The early summer rain has set in for a few days and that means a pause in the campaign against the last of the spring growth (we are on a 2 acre block) and a chance for some guilt-free hours in the shed/workshop.

 

Mike

[Golden Fleece 30]

Our little one starting to put some static grass outside the church walls.  Here is what it looks like afterwards but still not finished.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

This nice little loco arrived today, it was sold as a non runner but it did not take long to get running but is a little erratic at the moment. The chap who made has actually made all parts of the valve gear work setting the radius rod below the expansion link centre.

 

Also some flowers have quickly grown in front of the church :-)

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

"The chap who made has actually made all parts of the valve gear work setting the radius rod below the expansion link centre."

 

And rightly so. that's where it should be (as long as she is moving forward). It's always going to be wrong, unless one goes to the lengths of the maschist who built an S gauge tank with working Walschaert's gear (MRN (IIRC) many years ago). The Dublo 4MT tank is in reverse....

 

I never managed to train my daughter that well!    (She's keen on horses and dad's trains are just 'clutter'  )

Edited November 23, 2018 by Il Grifone

[Golden Fleece 30]

 

I never managed to train my daughter that well! 

She loves it David.  Hopefully the interest will stay with her for a long time.  

 

I will say I do a lot to help though like putting the glue down in the right place and the fiddly bit like the flower shrubs and not allowed to use my trusty Evo-stick.  At least she likes to operate the trains in a realistic manner and not full speed or stop.  In fact I recently asked both her and my wife which way a wagon would go through about 3 sets of points, she got it right, my wife wrong.

 

She has been known to get out of bed on a night to go into the shed to see what I am doing.

 

Valve gear in this scale is too fiddly these days for me to worry about the radius rod not being centred :-(. 

 

Garry

Edited November 23, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30

[Golden Fleece 30]

Put some new brick paper on the up line tunnel mouth, along with the opposite ends (these are not fastened in place yet), fitted some fencing and layed some static grass and bushes on one board. Need more paint and static grass (which is on order) to do much more so other little projects to do like a goods platform.  So much interesting work to do scenically, you will have noticed the platforms have gone, this is so a new one can be made for 2 reasons 1) the original was too high as it was above the carriage door bottoms, and 2) I am increasing the two bay lines to accommodate an extra coach length.

 

Garry

[Robin Brasher]

Hi Mike, The signal box etc were glued to the cork that the track was laid on so at the standard height as such but to me all aspects of the  building look too small, it was the same for the even smaller one where the stand alone one is now.  The pub is reasonable size and will possibly stay but the school has also been replaced with a Skaledale one as can be seen.  This was delivered broken into about 5 main pieces (poor packing but with a refund) but I have glued it back and put "moss" on to hide the joins and it looks fine now, I did put a little more "moss" around though.  Schools, like churches, can be very big, the one I went to had ceilings nearly as tall as a two storey house so the 00 should be fine. Regarding the station building here it is with a waiting room along side which is supposed to be the same scale from the same manufacturer but is way out of proportion.  Regarding the Lichen used the previous owner did that intentionally as he built the layout in the style and with with 50's/60's items.  I will be using static grass etc later to improve it all.

 

Your signal box look really well, as does the layout seen.  It looks like you have weathered it a little which certainly improves it.  I never bought any of the Prototype kits, don't remember why not as I had a go at most things of that era.

 

I will photograph the card sizes later but going out now for some card for new platforms and the roads.

 

Garry

I like the Tri-ang Margate hoarding. I had one with my Tri-ang 00 gauge mail coach set and I have probably still got it somewhere.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hopefully this will look something like I have in mind for the goods platforms. Possibly putting a shed over the longer platform towards the buffers and removing what is there on the next line. This would free up the other two lines for cattle and coal maybe having a raised platform for the cattle where the goods shed is now and a low wall against the goods line.

 

Garry.

[Golden Fleece 30]

A little diesel action, an early livery Type 3 without yellow warning panels and a DMU. The platform is the new one that has the extended bays with track to be fitted soon.

 

Video later.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

Short diesel video.

 

 

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

I like the Tri-ang Margate hoarding. I had one with my Tri-ang 00 gauge mail coach set and I have probably still got it somewhere.

 

They came in several varieties. I have one like Gary's and another advertising "Travel Tri-ang Railways" with a green Princess and "Margate" with a young lady in a red dress with white polka dots stating, "There's something in the air".  Probably Thames pollution!

 

If the radius rod is centred, she doesn't go! The Dublo A4 solves the problem by not having one!

[MikeCW]

Short diesel video.

 

Garry

Great work Garry. If he didn't know it was TT, someone watching the video would assume that it was 4mm, given the appearance of the trackwork, the level of detail and the quality of the running.  The buildings and scenery are starting to "hang together" nicely. I particularly like the balance you're striking between the standard of scenic detail and the retention of the traditional, 1960s, feel to the layout.

 

Good decision too on the painted but unballasted fibre based track.

 

Mike 

Edited November 24, 2018 by MikeCW

[BernardTPM]

The holiday posters were based on real ones. I remember seeing a 'Catch the sun at Ramsgate' poster revealed during the rebuilding of London Bridge in the early 1970s.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Great work Garry. If he didn't know it was TT, someone watching the video would assume that it was 4mm, given the appearance of the trackwork, the level of detail and the quality of the running. The buildings and scenery are starting to "hang together" nicely. I particularly like the balance you're striking between the standard of scenic detail and the retention of the traditional, 1960s, feel to the layout.

 

Good decision too on the painted but unballasted fibre based track.

 

Mike

Thanks Mike,

 

The trains do run well, like Dublo built to last (usually), but I have noticed the Deltic and this Type 3 ran very well on Tri-ang track but on nickel are not as good. They have the Magnadhesion for steel track but it was not actually thought of at the time, or not mentioned by Tri-ang that only came later in 00. I will have to look at putting a second motor bogie in as the Brush type 4 has. The controllers are plain H and M's no feedback etc but work well with these motors.

 

Unfortunately the fiddle yard track is very poor, nothing like the front, so I am having to renew it all using Peco points. I do need to make a curved trailing crossover for the bend in front of the goods yard as there was no facility for trains to cross from one line to the other meaning a goods train on the inner track had no access to the goods yard, or leave it. I also want to look at adding a turntable in the loco depot.

 

I quite like the track painted so hopefully getting more paint today as all I had left from the earlier layout is now used up.

 

More static grass is on order but I may have to do some work on the "hills" as I like a solid foundation underneath and in places these are "hollow" as if the paper base has not adheared to the base which I think is polystyrene.

 

On the front section a couple of motors are a problem but I cannot see to them until my friend comes down. It is not something our little one or my wife can help with. It means I cannot use the bays yet which is a disappointment.

 

The buildings, roads etc do need a fair bit doing just as the church entrance was done but it is getting there and I am plesed with it. It certainly saved a lot of work starting from scratch.

 

Garry

Edited November 24, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30

[Golden Fleece 30]

A start on the goods yard has been made with the platforms getting their brick edges and a goods shed started. I did not take into account the embossed paper thickness when cutting the wagon doors out but thankfully covered wagons just fit through. Not certain yet if I will cut any windows out on the line side, the card has been cut ready though and now just waiting for some roof tiling to arrive. A new section of platform has been made a little lower than the previous one (which was so high that coach doors would hit it and not open) and with an extended cut out for longer bays. You can see where the cork ballast needs a second coat.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Hi Garry,

 

Mine never come out like that! I'm on the third (rough) attempt to build an Italian station building in !: 80 scale (for Rivarossi). it's not helped that the drawings I have were originally to TT scale (allegedly) and the dimensions are in distinct. I originally reckoned 120:1 to !:80 and scaled up 50%. The result was far too big. The second attempt was a lot better but too small so I'm trying again. It's a good job I just built a plain building (Bilteezi style) and didn't cut out the windows. They have a a decorative relief moulding around them so I want it correct before I start on that!

 

This sort of thing (Bosa, Sardinia) at the end of the metre* gauge line from Macomer. It's now used as a bus station (ignominy) following the collapse of an embankment along the river. The line is only used for tourist trains now as far as the next station at Bosa Marina. They kept a steam locomotive for these (my ex-avatar) but she is now in disuse, apparently due to her running costs and the risk of fire (allegedly!).

 

 

SWMBO in front for scale. I gather it's usually 4.50 metres from ground level to the top of the ground floor cornice.

 

If you are ever there, it's a favourite site for the local police with radar....

 

* measured between the centres of the rails

 

David

Edited November 28, 2018 by Il Grifone

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Garry,

 

Mine never come out like that! I'm on the third (rough) attempt to build an Italian station building in !: 80 scale (for Rivarossi). it's not helped that the drawings I have were originally to TT scale (allegedly) and the dimensions are in distinct. I originally reckoned 120:1 to !:80 and scaled up 50%. The result was far too big. The second attempt was a lot better but too small so I'm trying again. It's a good job I just built a plain building (Bilteezi style) and didn't cut out the windows. They have a a decorative relief moulding around them so I want it correct before I start on that!

 

This sort of thing (Bosa, Sardinia) at the end of the metre* gauge line from Macomer. It's now used as a bus station (ignominy) following the collapse of an embankment along the river. The line is only used for tourist trains now as far as the next station at Bosa Marina. they kept a steam locomotive for these (my ex-avatar) but she is now in disuse, apparently due to her running costs and the risk of fire (allegedly!).

 

IMGP0175.JPG

 

SWMBO in front for scale. I gather it's usually 4.50 metres from ground level to the top of the ground floor cornice.

 

If you are ever there, it's a favourite site for the local police with radar....

 

* measured between the centres of the rails

 

David

That building goes along with what I was saying in an earlier post to NCB about how you cannot always go by a door/window size for scale.  This building is quite tall with the two floor to ceiling heights considerably more than the usual although some stations were larger, maybe more so in Italy and other countries.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Italian buildings (at least modern ones) tend to have high ceilings. Our flat in Turin had a ceiling height of 3 metres. The ground floor was reached up several steps. so the exterior ground floor height was about a metre higher. They are built with a reinforced concrete structure with the walls made of hollow bricks  for anti -seismic reasons. I remember a couple of earthquakes while we were fhere, but quite mild - only 4-5 on the Richter scale. One was in the early morning and we all slept through it, but the other was in the middle of the day and things waved around a bit, but no harm done. Piedmont is a quite low risk and Sardinis very low, but buildings are still built the same way. Better save than sorry.

 

I made the mistake with my building of assuming the first floor is lower than the ground floor. Apparently it's not, at least for the smaller structures, compounded by assuming the cornice was at first floor level. It appears that it's at ceiling level of the ground floor. This meant a loss of 2-3cm in overall  height and ensured that it doesn't tower over the train in the correct manner. it's not helped by the low Italian platforms, only about a foot above the railhead.

 

I have a roof for the Rivarossi model* which I thought about using, but alas they followed the deplorable Continental habit of modelling buildings to 1:100 or less so it doesn't fit. The crossing keeper's house on their level crossing is tiny. The real thing isn't very big, but it's not as bad as that. Oh well, back to the drawing board! The real first floors of shops are around five metres above street level, so the catalogue pictures of figures nearly reaching the top of the doorway are just ridiculous.

 

* One of the Turin model shops (there were several) was having a clearance sale. I also got quite a few Heljan kits cheaply. Their American kits seem OK, but the Danish ones are decidedly undernourished! The Church is even smaller than the Airfix one and their model of Teignmouth station is definitely smaller than the real thing, possibly even in TT scale. I did try to build the church as a larger one in low relief but gave up half way through.

[NCB]

I have the Heljan Teignmouth station, unbuilt. Others have used it in TT; in my view it's too big.