GWR Rolling Stock for the 1930s

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi all,

A friend of mine is looking to start a new layout (he's got the bug from me getting back into it!) being a steam chap, and something of a Great Western man - well you cant hold that against anyone! - he's considering either 1930s with Great Western/GW branded locos, or 1950s with GWR/BR branding/liveries.

 

But he's struggling to work out what carriage stock would have been around in the 1930s, so I said i'd ask the question on here for him.  He's looking at a layout around Plymouth/Lostwitheal area, so some mainline traffic (for which I think Saints, Halls, Castles, 2800s, 4700s, plus the normal Pannier and Prairie tanks would have been motive power)  and a small amount of branch traffic, for which im guessing 1400s or Panniers on autocoaches would have been the norm.  I've suggested that he could run private-owner goods wagons in that period, but not sure if vehicles would from the SR/LMS etc would have reached that far south.

 

He's undecided on 4mm or 7mm at the moment, but is happy to look at building kits, he just wants a clear understanding of the types of coaches (Hawkesworth, Collett, etc..) that would have been around the bottom of Devon / throughout Cornwall in the '30s.  My historical knowledge for the Great Western is less than good, so apologies in advance if i've mixed something up and got any howling errors in the above.

 

Can anyone help?

 

Richie

[Adrian Wintle]

In the early '30s you would be looking at early 57' Colletts (from 1925 on), 60' Collett Riviera stock (on the Limited), Toplights, and a fair number of Dean-era coaches. By the end of the '30s you would have added the later Collets (Centenary and Sunshine stock). In 4mm, the Hornby Colletts are typical of the early mainline stock, while the Bachmann Colletts are examples of the later stock (the prototypes date from 1938).

 

As for goods wagons, LMS branded ones were certainly seen at Kingswear in that time period, so are probably acceptable into Cornwall. For locos you could add some of the 4-4-0s as well as small prairies.

 

Adrian

[Edwardian]

One thing to bear in mind is that the Great Western seemed to pride itself on non-uniform formations, so the typical train had several styles/periods of coaches.  However tempting it might be to run the Hornby Colletts in a matching set, this was not usual.

 

For the early to mid-'30s, I would suggest the following:

 

Expresses divide into two broad categories:

 

(1) West of England, i.e. between Paddington and Penzance, or, at least once a day, Truro. 

 

The stock was formed predominantly from 70' Coaches, indeed, save for strengthening coaches and relief services in the summer, more or less exclusively 70'.   Photographs show these were a good mixture of Dreadnoughts, Concertinas, Toplights (panelled and flush steel sided), and South Wales.

 

BSL/Phoenix (metal kits) and MAJ (plastic with pre-coloured overlays for the side) produced South Wales stock. These are essentially like longer versions of the Hornby Colletts.  Elsewhere on RMWeb,members have successfully cut and shut the older (now Railroad range) Hornby Collets to form these longer coaches.  

 

The exception was the Cornish Riviera Ltd.  This has a uniform rake of 60' coaches.  1929-1935 these were the so-called 'Riviera' coaches, and, from 1935, the Centenary stock. 

 

In Cornwall, I imagine the motive power would have been generally Castles. 

 

(2) Cross country.  Many of these were so-called North to West services ex Crewe or Wolverhampton, but there was a Perishables from Cardiff. 

 

The stock was generally 57'.  The beautiful new Hornby Colletts are perfect for this.  Again, in reality most trains were a mixed bag and would include Toplights (panelled and flush steel sided), Bow-ended and Flat-Ended Colletts.  From 1936 the larger Windowed 'Sunshine' stock came in.  Only two of the Replica RTR coaches are prototypical, Third and Brake Composite IIRC.

 

A high proportion of the stock was LMS on these services. Photographs tend to suggest ex-LNWR and Period I or II coaches, rather than the familiar Staniers, which were only just coming in and probably confined to the principal routes.  The Bachmann Period I coaches are perfect.

 

I am not sure what locomotives took over these service in Cornwall.  I would have thought Castles and Halls would be suitable.  Saints were not local by this time, and neither were Stars (the only Stars at Laira had been rebuilt as Castles), but Stars working cross-country services from their home sheds were certainly seen in Devon, so may have worked across the Tamar.

 

Both West of England and Cross Country services would often feature full brakes and Siphon Gs.

 

Local, stopping services might, in the Up direction, comprise express coaches on a balancing working (more went Down than went Up on expresses), or cascaded mainline coaches, such as corridor clerestories. I am not familiar with the specifics of local services in Cornwall, however.

 

Around the Plymouth area, there was a terrific amount of auto-train working, mainly employing Panniers.

 

Express freights usually ran overnight, and 4700s were used on them. There were not many of this class, so I expect 2800s also took fitted and semi-fitted freights. The RODs were still going, too. The motive power for stopping or trip goods I am less certain over.  The days of Dean Goods in the Devon were gone, and I believe this was likely the case in Cornwall, also.  4300s were fairly numerous, so seem a reasonable choice.  Laira even had Aberdares still.

 

Most goods stock was "common user", i.e. the Big Four contributed to a pool.  For this reason, non-fitted goods stock will be a mixture of the Big Four, not, as many GW layouts will have it, predominantly GW.  The size of the contributions were, in descending order, LNER, LMS, GWR and SR.

 

Fitted stock, not common user, was kept under the Company's control, and, so would be expected to return home.  Thus I would expect to see predominately fitted GW stock in express freights, but other companies would work fitted stock through to Devon and Cornwall, so I would not assume that fitted freights used exclusively GW stock.

 

Fitted stock could, of course, get taken off fitted freights at a main goods depot and worked through to its destination via an unfitted trip goods.

 

Not sure what motive power the various Cornish branches had, though a brace of 4800s went new to Cornwall in the early '30s.  I daresay some of the branches used Small Prairie classes with B-Sets.

 

There is a reasonable amount of all this RTR, so with a few judicious RTR conversions or kit-builds, a fairly representative selection of services should be well within reach.

[Richie Kynaston]

Wow, thanks to both of you for your detailed responses, i'll pass them on.  I must say i've learnt a lot from reading that, although the various vehicle descriptions loose me a bit - think i've seen Siphon Gs on the Severn Valley, but need to go and have a read up on what Concertinas, Riviera and Centenary stock looked like!  Had four wheeled stock finished on branch trains by that time - i'd assumed they'd long been ousted from the main line, but thought a few might have survived on lesser used branches, or where auto trains didnt have the capacity??   Something like this, if he was to go O gauge (https://www.slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=7C07) or the Ratio kits (http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=3340,3344&CAT_ID=3350&P_ID=17879) i guess in 4mm?

 

Also did not know that the Saints had finished in Cornwall by the 30s, presume they had been transferred away from Devon and Cornwall sheds?  I'd suggested to my mate that they would have been ideal motive power, so need to advise him that i am wrong there!  I'll tell him to supplement Star's but i think some of those went quite early so he'll need to watch out for which ones he chooses.  I think from the books that i've looked at the Small Prairie's were quite common on the branches down there, especially like Looe and St. Ives, not sure about Newquay, that may have generated others especially in the summer, given the holiday nature of the traffic.

 

 

As for goods wagons, LMS branded ones were certainly seen at Kingswear in that time period, so are probably acceptable into Cornwall. For locos you could add some of the 4-4-0s as well as small prairies.

 

That will give him a bit of variety then! Plus as Edwardian said, if the Big Four had a pool of non-fitted stock, it opens the door to quite some variety!

 

 

(2) Cross country.  Many of these were so-called North to West services ex Crewe or Wolverhampton, but there was a Perishables from Cardiff. 

 

The stock was generally 57'.  The beautiful new Hornby Colletts are perfect for this.  Again, in reality most trains were a mixed bag and would include Toplights (panelled and flush steel sided), Bow-ended and Flat-Ended Colletts.  From 1936 the larger Windowed 'Sunshine' stock came in.  Only two of the Replica RTR coaches are prototypical, Third and Brake Composite IIRC.

 

A high proportion of the stock was LMS on these services. Photographs tend to suggest ex-LNWR and Period I or II coaches, rather than the familiar Staniers, which were only just coming in and probably confined to the principal routes.  The Bachmann Period I coaches are perfect.

 

Now i must admit i had never considered that LMS stock would have been seen pre-Nationalisation in Cornwall.  This may be an obvious question, but to somebody who doesnt known his Period I from a Toplight, what would LMS Period I or II coaches be?  Im assuming the Stanier's you refer to are similar to the LMS set that runs today on the SVR?  Would any former LNWR stock still be in their spilt milk and plum livery or would they have gained an LMS colour scheme by that time - i am guessing around 10 years after grouping some wouldn't have been through the paintshop?

 

Thanks again to both of you for all your input.

 

Richie

[Adrian Wintle]

LMS Period I stock would be panelled. In 4mm this is the old Bachmann LMS coaches. Period II is represented by the Hornby LMS 12-wheel diner, while Period III would be the Hornby or Airfix Stanier coaches. You could also use the Ratio LNWR arc-roof kits.

 

GWR coach types:

Concertina - these were 70 foot stock and had inset doors (so an all-third looked a bit like a concertina)

Dreadnought - also 70 foot stock, with inset end doors.

Centenary - a set of 26 coaches (to seven diagrams) built to provide two sets to re-equip the Riviera for the GWR centenary. Two diagrams are available from Hornby (ex-Airfix) in 4mm. Based on the very similar Super Saloons that the GWR built to replace the leased Pullmans on boat trains.

Riviera - 60' coaches built in 1929 to re-equip the Riviera. Look like longer versions of the Hornby Colletts.

Toplights - 57 and 70 foot stock, originally panelled, but later diagrams were smooth sided.

Colletts - built from 1925, originally in 57 and 70 foot lengths with (mostly) bow ends. From the early '30s they went to flat ends and by the late '30s they had large windows and were mostly 60 or 61 feet long..

 

Four wheeled stock had more or less been relegated to workmen's trains in the Welsh valleys. Branch line trains could see old Dean clerestory coaches - the Hornby short clerestory coaches are representative (even though they don't match any particular diagram). In 7mm you could use something like this https://www.slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=7C08

 

Adrian

[sandwich station]

The old Airfix now Dapol LMS non - corridor stock, although called Stanier stock by some are infact Period 11 stock.

[eastglosmog]

Regarding goods stock, in the 1930s there were a common user agreements in place for all company owned unfitted open wagons of 3 planks and over, for company owned unfitted end door mineral wagons and unfitted company owned covered vans.  So even down in Cornwall, all companies wagons of these categories would be needed.

[Siberian Snooper]

Plymouth auto trains mainly used 70ft trailers that worked in pairs with a corridor connection between them. Worsley Works do scratch build etches for a pair of the most numerous diagrams, but these were still only about 4 or 5 of each if my memory is correct. Peak time trains had 2 pairs sandwiching an auto fitted pannier tank.

 

Don't forget that the Kings were used on the London trains especially the Riviera, but weren't allowed over the bridge into Cornwall.

 

Summer Saturday's could see all sorts of motive power on the extra trains.

[Edwardian]

Wow, thanks to both of you for your detailed responses, i'll pass them on.  I must say i've learnt a lot from reading that, although the various vehicle descriptions loose me a bit - think i've seen Siphon Gs on the Severn Valley, but need to go and have a read up on what Concertinas, Riviera and Centenary stock looked like!  Had four wheeled stock finished on branch trains by that time - i'd assumed they'd long been ousted from the main line, but thought a few might have survived on lesser used branches, or where auto trains didnt have the capacity??   Something like this, if he was to go O gauge (https://www.slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=7C07) or the Ratio kits (http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=3340,3344&CAT_ID=3350&P_ID=17879) i guess in 4mm?

 

Also did not know that the Saints had finished in Cornwall by the 30s, presume they had been transferred away from Devon and Cornwall sheds?  I'd suggested to my mate that they would have been ideal motive power, so need to advise him that i am wrong there!  I'll tell him to supplement Star's but i think some of those went quite early so he'll need to watch out for which ones he chooses.  I think from the books that i've looked at the Small Prairie's were quite common on the branches down there, especially like Looe and St. Ives, not sure about Newquay, that may have generated others especially in the summer, given the holiday nature of the traffic.

 

 

 

That will give him a bit of variety then! Plus as Edwardian said, if the Big Four had a pool of non-fitted stock, it opens the door to quite some variety!

 

 

 

Now i must admit i had never considered that LMS stock would have been seen pre-Nationalisation in Cornwall.  This may be an obvious question, but to somebody who doesnt known his Period I from a Toplight, what would LMS Period I or II coaches be?  Im assuming the Stanier's you refer to are similar to the LMS set that runs today on the SVR?  Would any former LNWR stock still be in their spilt milk and plum livery or would they have gained an LMS colour scheme by that time - i am guessing around 10 years after grouping some wouldn't have been through the paintshop?

 

Thanks again to both of you for all your input.

 

Richie

 

It surprises me that few modellers of the GW in Devon and Cornwall include LMS coaching stock, but, very roughly IIRC it is getting on for a good 50% of the stock on North to Wests.

 

One service alternated a GW and LMS Restaurant car.  Photographs IIRC show ex-WCML 12-wheel Joint Stock diner, but also the 12-wheel Period II Composite Diner that Dapol/Hornby produced, so another win there.  Period II is steel flush-sided, but with glass toplights (little widows set in the eaves panels).

 

The LMS coaches mainly used were Brake Thirds and Composites, so the 57' Period I (panelled) Bachmann pair is ideal.

 

Before Grouping, these through coaches were from the LNWR - I have an album with a nice shot of LNWR 57' coaches in plum and spilt milk passing through Exeter - and photographs suggest that ex-LNWR coaches remained on these services in LMS days.  The 50' corridor stock produced by Ratio was still around, so a Composite and Brake Third kit could be used. They would be in LMS livery by that date.

 

The plain LMS livery came in in 1933.  Before that all the beading was lined in black edged gold (for corridor stock).  In Period II coaches this involved faux panelling, like that originally applied to GW Collets before 1928.  This livery took time to be applied across the board, e.g. in the 1936 film The Night Mail, the train has a mixture of both liveries.  My theory, based on common sense as well as the photographs I have seen, is that the coaches used on these secondary services were generally neither new Stanier types nor had they yet been repainted.  So, strictly, the Bachmann, Hornby and ratio coaches should probably be in fully lined crimson, at least as late as the mid-'30s.  Attractive, but fiddly, so your friend might want to leave them as they come.

 

Also, again, very roughly, the division between West of England and Cross-Country expresses was about 50/50, which is worth bearing in mind if planning a representative selection of trains.

 

Siberian Snooper's post reminds me that if your friend wanted an opportunity to run a 4700 in daylight, they were employed on passenger excursion trains.

 

A great general guide that will, very cheaply it seems, demystify Great Western coaches for your friend, is this: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/great-western-coaches-1890-1954/author/michael-harris/

[asmay2002]

Hi all,

A friend of mine is looking to start a new layout (he's got the bug from me getting back into it!) being a steam chap, and something of a Great Western man - well you cant hold that against anyone! - he's considering either 1930s with Great Western/GW branded locos, or 1950s with GWR/BR branding/liveries.

 

But he's struggling to work out what carriage stock would have been around in the 1930s, so I said i'd ask the question on here for him.  He's looking at a layout around Plymouth/Lostwitheal area, so some mainline traffic (for which I think Saints, Halls, Castles, 2800s, 4700s, plus the normal Pannier and Prairie tanks would have been motive power)  and a small amount of branch traffic, for which im guessing 1400s or Panniers on autocoaches would have been the norm.  I've suggested that he could run private-owner goods wagons in that period, but not sure if vehicles would from the SR/LMS etc would have reached that far south.

 

He's undecided on 4mm or 7mm at the moment, but is happy to look at building kits, he just wants a clear understanding of the types of coaches (Hawkesworth, Collett, etc..) that would have been around the bottom of Devon / throughout Cornwall in the '30s.  My historical knowledge for the Great Western is less than good, so apologies in advance if i've mixed something up and got any howling errors in the above.

Just as a general principle remember that a lot of what would have been around in the early 1930s would have dated back to the before WW1. During the 1930s it changed a lot with new types coming in to replace old:  48xx to replace 517, 54XX, 64xx, 74xx, 57xx to replace old saddle tanks and panniers,  Halls to replace Bulldogs, Atbaras and Counties,  2251 to replace Dean Goods, Castles instead of Stars, etc.  The GWR of 1939 was essentially similar to the WR of the 1950s in much of its stock but rather different to the GWR of 1930.  As already said Common user wagons went everywhere so you need a mix of all companies. 

[chrisf]

I am surprised that no-one else has proffered the advice of looking at photographs.  A flavour may be obtained by consulting these books:

 

#  The Great Western Railway in the 1930s Vols 1 and 2, by David Fraser [Vol 1 only], David Geen and Barry Scott.  These contain well captioned pictures taken by the late G H Soole, whise collection is in the care of the National Railway Museum

 

#  Great Western Steam 1934-1959, by Mike Arlett and David Lockett.  This contains photographs taken by the late Norman Lockett in parts of the West Country.

 

No doubt other inmates can bring to mind equally useful books and sources.

 

Chris 

[Il Grifone]

it is possible that pre-grouping liveries would have survived into the thirties especially on wagons, but they would have been increasingly rare and tatty (Rule 1 always applies!).

 

Southern wagons would have been quite common in Cornwall - there was a Southern presence after all*. Private Owner coal wagons would have been local, as most of the coal traffic came by sea I understand. China Clay was an important traffic and carried in both private owner and company wagons.

 

*They got there first IIRC.

[County of Yorkshire]

The stock was formed predominantly from 70' Coaches, indeed, save for strengthening coaches and relief services in the summer, more or less exclusively 70'.   Photographs show these were a good mixture of Dreadnoughts, Concertinas, Toplights (panelled and flush steel sided), and South Wales.

 

BSL/Phoenix (metal kits) and MAJ (plastic with pre-coloured overlays for the side) produced South Wales stock. These are essentially like longer versions of the Hornby Colletts.  Elsewhere on RMWeb,members have successfully cut and shut the older (now Railroad range) Hornby Collets to form these longer coaches.  Comet also have a range of South Wales 70 footers - BSL/Phoenix and MAJ kits are now no longer available and usually found on ebay or at swapmeets. David Geen and Worsley works between them offer kits for many of the Dreadnoughts and Concertina coaches. 

 

Most goods stock was "common user", i.e. the Big Four contributed to a pool.  For this reason, non-fitted goods stock will be a mixture of the Big Four, not, as many GW layouts will have it, predominantly GW.  The size of the contributions were, in descending order, LNER, LMS, GWR and SR. Actually it was LMS - LNER - GWR - SR. The LMS had the biggest goods stock fleet in the world at that time iirc? Moreover, I recall reading on RMweb a few years ago the following ratios nationally of common user big 4 goods stock: LMS 40%, LNER 30%, GWR 20%, Southern 10%.

 

There is a reasonable amount of all this RTR, so with a few judicious RTR conversions or kit-builds, a fairly representative selection of services should be well within reach. The excellent GWR.org.uk website - maintained by Miss Prism of this parish - is a superb resource for what stock is available both RTR and as kits - including those kits no longer available from the manufacturers and so you can know what to look out for second hand. 

 

With pedant mode on...

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

[Edwardian]

I am surprised that no-one else has proffered the advice of looking at photographs.  A flavour may be obtained by consulting these books:

 

#  The Great Western Railway in the 1930s Vols 1 and 2, by David Fraser [Vol 1 only], David Geen and Barry Scott.  These contain well captioned pictures taken by the late G H Soole, whise collection is in the care of the National Railway Museum

 

#  Great Western Steam 1934-1959, by Mike Arlett and David Lockett.  This contains photographs taken by the late Norman Lockett in parts of the West Country.

 

No doubt other inmates can bring to mind equally useful books and sources.

 

Chris 

 

Those would be my top choices.  Generally it's a case of a smattering in each of the various other albums.

 

EDIT: The GW in the '30s volumes concentrate on the Bristol area, but are a particularly good source for pictures of North-Wests

 

The Great Western in South Devon, Beck & Copsley will be relevant for mainline traffic. 

 

Your friend might think about where his layout is to be located within the general area; there will be books on specific Cornish lines or sections of the mainline that would doubtless help. '

 

With pedant mode on...

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

 

Good points. 

 

Re BSL and MAJ - hence use of past tense [pedant mode].

 

I did not know how into brass kit building your friend might be, but there are a number of manufacturers, though the choice has contracted in recent years.  Second-hand BSL and Maj kit-built coaches and RTR conversions are the easiest way in.  Another dodge is Comet replacement sides on RTR coaches.

 

Another great resource was the Mallard/Blacksmiths etched brass kits, but these have disappeared up the Coopercraft Fundament.  Likewise the Southern Group who still feature webpages with the BSL/Phoenix range don't even bother answering emails these days.  TPOs etches were produced by the old 247 Developments, but not by the new.

 

There is some good news in that David Geen has recently taken on the CSP/Hayes Developments kits, mainly 70' types, to supplement his own range.  Mind you, he is yet to answer a recent email too! 

 

Marc Models offer Concertinas in kit and RTR form (expensive option!).

 

Worth checking Worsley Works range of coach sides, too.

 

Apologies if, going on memory, I have muddled LMS and LNER contributions to the pool. The essential point is that your friend should have a healthy number of unfitted wagons from both. 

 

I would also commend the gwr.org site.

 

Private owners are best judged from photographs - there are some surprising candidates that turned up in the far West!  Most PO traffic is mineral. Coal traffic may be seen in colliery wagons from South Wales, but also Forest of Dean and other places, and some was shipped in by Coal Factors, e.g. from London. 

 

EDIT: This seems true of Devon, whether coal via sea, as Il Grifone says, made the situation significantly different in Cornwall, I don't know.

 

There would also be local coal merchants.  The Helston Gas Works had its own small fleet, though only from 1938.

[Edwardian]

it is possible that pre-grouping liveries would have survived into the thirties especially on wagons, but they would have been increasingly rare and tatty (Rule 1 always applies!).

 

Southern wagons would have been quite common in Cornwall - there was a Southern presence after all*. Private Owner coal wagons would have been local, as most of the coal traffic came by sea I understand. China Clay was an important traffic and carried in both private owner and company wagons.

 

*They got there first IIRC.

 

In terms of common user pool wagons, logically SR wagons are likely to be the smallest contingent, reflecting its contribution to the pool.

 

I am not so convinced about non-common user SR vehicles being a significant presence in GW trains, precisely because the Southern had its own alternative routes for such traffic.

[drduncan]

Try ringing David Geen rather than emailing him. I have always found him extremely helpful.

Duncan

[Edwardian]

Try ringing David Geen rather than emailing him. I have always found him extremely helpful.

Duncan

 

Thanks.  So have I, but I had not tried emailing before!

[Guardian]

The LMS had the biggest goods stock fleet in the world at that time iirc?

pedant mode on:

 

IIRC, this refers to the Commonwealth. Compared to countries with a nationalised railway system, the LMS fleet was smaller in total (e.g. the German State Railways having had a wagon stock of 572,000 in late 1937 compared to approx. 283,000 LMS stock in the early 1930s). In relation to the network mileage, it is vice versa: the LMS network was approx. 7,800 miles, that of the Reichsbahn approx. 42,700 miles in 1935...

 

pedant mode off....

 

Cheers

Mark

[Richie Kynaston]

Evening guys,

Thanks for all the help and support - i printed a copy of your responses off and popped round to see my mate this afternoon - as he said it makes for truly fascinating reading, and he's kept the print out for reference, and to read an inwardly digest again! OH - and has asked me to thank everyone for their input.  He has the GWR in the 1930s around Bristol book along with a couple of Middleton Press titles for Cornish lines/branches, but is going to look for some of the others that have been mentioned

 

He's fairly sure he's going to go 7mm - he is lucky in having an external building bigger than my garage! So as he says looking at the models, they just have a better sense of realism being a bigger model.  Somebody asked about area, and he likes the addition of the China Clay traffic to the general freight operations, so positioning will be somewhere around Lostwitheal/St Blazey area - I can see plenty of clay hoods coming up here!  I think some of the wagons dated back to the 30s, going of something i read a while back.

 

There are a couple of queries that he has having read it all:

a) When did the last timber viaduct go in Cornwall?  We think it would probably have been more on a branch line than a mainline, but I have a feeling (possibly wrongly) that a couple survived into the late 1920s?

 

b) Were there any slip coach workings in Cornwall at all, at that time?  Or any workings where a slip coach would have been conveyed within the consist, but not used as a slip?

 

c) We looked at the Worsley Works site and he noted there was a kit for a TPO, so im guessing there were a Paddington and/or Bristol to Penzance working(s)?

 

d) Mention has been made about CrossCountry workings - presumably these would have been re-engined at Worcester or Bristol, so Midland engines would never have reached that far south?  How many cross-country workings were there back in the 1930s?

 

e) Does anyone know where timetable information for this period could be researched?

 

On behalf of both of us, thanks ever so much.

 

Richie

[Miss Prism]

The last Brunel timber viaduct in Cornwall was Collegewood, on the Falmouth branch, replaced 1934 (?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall_Railway_viaducts#/media/File:Collegewood_viaduct.jpg

 

Slips to Falmouth were operated off the CRE:

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r017.html

 

TPO workings were to/from Penzance, not sure of details.

 

Cornwall was 'shared' between the GWR and the LSWR. There was little interworking between the two. I've never seen a pic of a Midland loco in Cornwall.

[Compound2632]

LMS Period I stock would be panelled. In 4mm this is the old Bachmann LMS coaches. Period II is represented by the Hornby LMS 12-wheel diner, while Period III would be the Hornby or Airfix Stanier coaches. You could also use the Ratio LNWR arc-roof kits.

 

I'd be rather surprised if the nearly 40-year-old 50' arc roof LNWR corridor carriages represented by the Ratio kits would be used on these long-distance workings. More likely 57' elliptical-roofed stock from shortly before the grouping - only 15-20 years old. What's tricky is to get the corridor thirds which I expect would dominate these formations, without resorting to the Hornby Staniers (aka Period III, from 1932). Could try marrying the compartment end of a Bachmann brake third with the third class end of a composite (these are Period I, coaches built in large numbers 1923-30-ish, dominating the LMS corridor scene in the mid-30s). Short of brass kit building, could use Comet brass sides on donor Depol (ex-Airfix) Staniers. But beware, right up to the war many of the panelled Period I and ex-LNWR coaches would still be in the fully-lined LMS livery. I think we can be pretty confident that no LNWR carriage used on these services would still be in LNWR livery 12 years after grouping.

 

EDIT: These comments relate to 4 mm. For 7 mm, there's plenty to keep the soldering iron hot for.

[Edwardian]

Evening guys,

Thanks for all the help and support - i printed a copy of your responses off and popped round to see my mate this afternoon - as he said it makes for truly fascinating reading, and he's kept the print out for reference, and to read an inwardly digest again! OH - and has asked me to thank everyone for their input.  He has the GWR in the 1930s around Bristol book along with a couple of Middleton Press titles for Cornish lines/branches, but is going to look for some of the others that have been mentioned

 

He's fairly sure he's going to go 7mm - he is lucky in having an external building bigger than my garage! So as he says looking at the models, they just have a better sense of realism being a bigger model.  Somebody asked about area, and he likes the addition of the China Clay traffic to the general freight operations, so positioning will be somewhere around Lostwitheal/St Blazey area - I can see plenty of clay hoods coming up here!  I think some of the wagons dated back to the 30s, going of something i read a while back.

 

There are a couple of queries that he has having read it all:

a) When did the last timber viaduct go in Cornwall?  We think it would probably have been more on a branch line than a mainline, but I have a feeling (possibly wrongly) that a couple survived into the late 1920s?

 

b) Were there any slip coach workings in Cornwall at all, at that time?  Or any workings where a slip coach would have been conveyed within the consist, but not used as a slip?

 

c) We looked at the Worsley Works site and he noted there was a kit for a TPO, so im guessing there were a Paddington and/or Bristol to Penzance working(s)?

 

d) Mention has been made about CrossCountry workings - presumably these would have been re-engined at Worcester or Bristol, so Midland engines would never have reached that far south?  How many cross-country workings were there back in the 1930s?

 

e) Does anyone know where timetable information for this period could be researched?

 

On behalf of both of us, thanks ever so much.

 

Richie

 

I have looked at the composition of the West of England TPO, which changed during the early '30s due to an influx of replacement Collett vehicles.

 

I also have, courtesy of Mr David Geen (he and I met, once, many years ago), a coach working timetable for the early '30s.  This does not cover the stoppers, but gives you the formations of all the through services.  You can see what was left by the time they left Plymouth for Cornwall!

 

Look at the Norman Lockett volume Chris recommended, plenty of Stars that were not local to the area working west of Exeter and Newton.

 

I don't have time to respond at length now, however, but perhaps could PM you during next week? 

[Compound2632]

d) Mention has been made about CrossCountry workings - presumably these would have been re-engined at Worcester or Bristol, so Midland engines would never have reached that far south?  How many cross-country workings were there back in the 1930s?

 

Don't forget that Bristol Temple Meads station was joint Midland/LMS and Great Western. This would be the place where engines were changed.

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi Stephen,

 

I'd be rather surprised if the nearly 40-year-old 50' arc roof LNWR corridor carriages represented by the Ratio kits would be used on these long-distance workings. More likely 57' elliptical-roofed stock from shortly before the grouping - only 15-20 years old. What's tricky is to get the corridor thirds which I expect would dominate these formations, without resorting to the Hornby Staniers (aka Period III, from 1932). Could try marrying the compartment end of a Bachmann brake third with the third class end of a composite (these are Period I, coaches built in large numbers 1923-30-ish, dominating the LMS corridor scene in the mid-30s). Short of brass kit building, could use Comet brass sides on donor Depol (ex-Airfix) Staniers. But beware, right up to the war many of the panelled Period I and ex-LNWR coaches would still be in the fully-lined LMS livery. I think we can be pretty confident that no LNWR carriage used on these services would still be in LNWR livery 12 years after grouping.

 

EDIT: These comments relate to 4 mm. For 7 mm, there's plenty to keep the soldering iron hot for.

 

Thanks for that, I think he will end up down the 7mm road!  But if he can get a set of stock that looks like the Midland vehicle at Peak Rail (I think thats the one you linked to?) then he will be like a pig in mud!  Anything with the old detailed liveries and the like he loves - despite having a collection of 7mm 1980s diesels!!!

 

I have looked at the composition of the West of England TPO, which changed during the early '30s due to an influx of replacement Collett vehicles.

 

I also have, courtesy of Mr David Geen (he and I met, once, many years ago), a coach working timetable for the early '30s.  This does not cover the stoppers, but gives you the formations of all the through services.  You can see what was left by the time they left Plymouth for Cornwall!

 

Look at the Norman Lockett volume Chris recommended, plenty of Stars that were not local to the area working west of Exeter and Newton.

 

I don't have time to respond at length now, however, but perhaps could PM you during next week? 

 

Hi Edwardian (do you have a first name?)

He's looking for both of the books that Chris recommended - so hopefully one will be acquired.  That coach working timetable sounds fascinating - far more going on then than 80 years later I suspect!!  Please feel free to PM me anytime, and no problem when - on behalf of my mate, we appreciate you taking the time to help, so as and when you have chance, its all appreciated.

 

Cheers

Richie

[Richie Kynaston]

Don't forget that Bristol Temple Meads station was joint Midland/LMS and Great Western. This would be the place where engines were changed.

 

Thanks - sorry i'd forgotten that. I was thinking Temple Meads when i typed Worcester ... why i then went on to type Bristol is anyone's guess, because I knew the Midland had its own route into Bristol!! As a female friend of mine would say - put it down to a 'blonde moment'!