Unusual workings of the Midland Blue Pullman sets

[Michael Hodgson]

It may not be a Midland set, but here's another blue Pullman on the ECML

Edited September 18, 2023 by Michael Hodgson

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Is this the Midland Pullman (as is mentioned in the article title) and if so when did they lose the Midland prefix to the train name on the cab-side?

 

Yes, both of the 6 car sets.

 

Mike

[jim.snowdon]

7 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Is this the Midland Pullman (as is mentioned in the article title) and if so when did they lose the Midland prefix to the train name on the cab-side?

It is, or rather was. The 6-car sets were later transferred to the Western, at which time they fitted with MU jumpers so that they could be run as a 12-car set.

[Mikeastons]

On 16/09/2023 at 22:44, Matt37268 said:

This one doesn’t prove anything! 

Here's the Blue Pullman Charter at Bolton Road Bury. Photo by Eric Bentley. The Walsall party had left the train at Knowsley Street.

[Mikeastons]

On 15/09/2023 at 21:38, adb968008 said:

No ones mention the famous working of 28th Jan 1967 when a set ran into Bury Bolton Street when Bury FC were playing Walsall in the FA Cup. 1z55 / 1z56 were the codes.

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk

I've popped a photo on of it at Bury Bolton Street for you

[Mikeastons]

On 12/07/2017 at 15:01, TravisM said:

I have a Graham Farish Midland Blue Pullman set and apart from it's usual workings, did they ever travel anywhere else on special workings whilst in the the care of the Midland Region before they were transfered over to the Western Region.  I have a picture of one set at Calvert North Junction on the GC, on a Preston - Wembley FA Cup special in 1964 and wondered what else they were used for at the weekends?

 

Julian Sprott

Hi Julian,
Most of the charters carried out by the Blue Pullmans at weekends were done by the Western Region. I do list all the known ones with lots of photos in a book I wrote with Kevin Robertson called The Blue Pullman Story. 
Regards Mike 

Edited July 24 by Mikeastons

[SteveyDee68]

6 hours ago, Mikeastons said:

Here's the Blue Pullman Charter at Bolton Road Bury. Photo by Eric Bentley. The Walsall party had left the train at Knowsley Street.

Now, if that’s not inspiration for the ELR to kickstart a new build Blue Pullman project I don’t know what is! 😆

 

They do very well with their fine dining trains already, using old MK1 stock done painted up in Pullman brown and cream, and a Blue Pullman replica would not need to run at 100mph (or even 90mph) if confined to the ELR only! 
 

Would such a build be commercially viable? Would it pull in (more of) the punters than the current fine dining train? Would it’s existence be an insult if produced “Walt Disney”* style to reduce costs?

 

Steve S

 

* It looks right, but is essentially a theatrical prop

[br2975]

On 12/07/2017 at 18:00, jonhall said:

Surbiton evening class 'Talking of Trains' (which is still going) hired a set to do Surbiton - Carmarthen (IIRC)

 

Jon

.

25th.  April, 1970                                                                                                       

Gilks-Grenside , (Educational Special Numbers 7 & 8)

.

The route was ;

Surbiton - Woking - Guildford - Wokingham - Earley - Reading General - Didcot - Swindon - Wootton Bassett Jn - Westerleigh Jn - Patchway - Severn Tunnel Junction - Newport - Cardiff General - Bridgend - Port Talbot - Court Sart Jn - Felin Fran - Morlais Jn - Llandilo Jn - Llanelli - Carmarthen

.

At Carmarthen the passengers swapped onto a DMU lash up to tour the 'West Wales milk branches' which route was;

Carmarthen - Abergwili Jn - Bronwydd Arms - Pencader - Pencader Jn - Pentrecourt - Newcastle Emlyn - Pentrecourt - Pencader Jn - Llanybyther - Lampeter - Aberayron Jn - Felin Fach - Aberayron Jn - Llangybi - Pont Llanio - Llangybi - Aberayron Jn - Lampeter - Llanybyther - Pencader Jn - Bronwydd Arms - Abergwili Jn - Carmarthen

.

I passed the Pullman heading west along the GWML, as we headed east on a Cardiff - eastbourne 'Mystery Excursion'

[br2975]

On 13/07/2017 at 13:18, Ed-farms said:

I know one made it to Leeds on a foot ball special - but that was in the revised grey/blue

 

Saturday, 15th. January, 1972

 

8 Car South Wales Pullman set; (60093+60738+60748+60749+60739+60648+60649+60099)  worked a Bristol – Leeds ‘Footex’ in connection with an FA Cup 4th Round tie.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 16/07/2017 at 15:08, stovepipe said:

Think it must be this one from April 1964, for a Swansea - Birmingham City fixture.

FA Cup Semi Final at Villa Park, Preston North End 2 Swansea Town 1.

Two trains ran Swansea to Witton I understand. A loco hauled one was worked throughout by D7092.

[adb968008]

15 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Now, if that’s not inspiration for the ELR to kickstart a new build Blue Pullman project I don’t know what is! 😆

 

….

 

Would it’s existence be an insult if produced “Walt Disney”* style to reduce costs?

 

 

* It looks right, but is essentially a theatrical prop

You mean this one…

 

(flickr url not mine)

 

So good theyve got two of them now.,..

 

Now if WCRC were thinking to sell their Lakelander Pullman set (ex mk2 AC hauled manchester pullman set)… they could find themselves with a really good head start on recreating a Manchester Pullman “DMU”… their are differences but more alike than you think… unfortunately recreating the power cars may be a bit more of a challenge…

 

as an aside if it werent for the ridiculous price on the Bachmann Pullman bodies I would have bought some shells and put them on mk2f chassis as a starting point of a conversion.

 

 

 

Edited July 23 by adb968008

[Mikeastons]

16 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Now, if that’s not inspiration for the ELR to kickstart a new build Blue Pullman project I don’t know what is! 😆

 

They do very well with their fine dining trains already, using old MK1 stock done painted up in Pullman brown and cream, and a Blue Pullman replica would not need to run at 100mph (or even 90mph) if confined to the ELR only! 
 

Would such a build be commercially viable? Would it pull in (more of) the punters than the current fine dining train? Would it’s existence be an insult if produced “Walt Disney”* style to reduce costs?

 

Steve S

 

* It looks right, but is essentially a theatrical prop

A replica Blue Pullman would cost around £20 million to build and there has been a group looking at the feasibility for around a decade. They have nowhere near the fund needed.
Even taking the existing HST and creating the tribute Midland Pullman cost LSL around £5mill 5 years ago and that doesn't include the extra power cars they've added.
When I wrote the book we tried to fundraise to build just a Blue Pullman Cab within a group of 3000 Blue Pullman fans....I think we got to about £700 ish of which £600 plus was from me or my family.
So, although I would love it to happen I wouldn't hold your breath!
 

[Mikeastons]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

You mean this one…

 

(flickr url not mine)

 

So good theyve got two of them now.,..

 

Now if WCRC were thinking to sell their Lakelander Pullman set (ex mk2 AC hauled manchester pullman set)… they could find themselves with a really good head start on recreating a Manchester Pullman “DMU”… their are differences but more alike than you think… unfortunately recreating the power cars may be a bit more of a challenge…

 

as an aside if it werent for the ridiculous price on the Bachmann Pullman bodies I would have bought some shells and put them on mk2f chassis as a starting point of a conversion.

 

I would rather the Lakeland set become a recreated Manchester Pullman in it's own right as opposed to a half hearted attempt to become a Blue Pullman set.
Having said that, with the exception of City Of Manchester the seats etc have been retrimmed to suit the Lakeland style. A new Blue Pullman needs to a be a new build,

 

[SteveyDee68]

£20M or so to recreate the original Blue Pullman train? I guess with that money the ELR could do way more than build a six coach DMU!

 

Shame - it would have been nice to see “in the flesh” (and as lovely as the HST in Nanking Blue is, it isn’t really a Blue Pullman, is it??)

 

Steve S

[Mikeastons]

2 hours ago, br2975 said:

 

Saturday, 15th. January, 1972

 

8 Car South Wales Pullman set; (60093+60738+60748+60749+60739+60648+60649+60099)  worked a Bristol – Leeds ‘Footex’ in connection with an FA Cup 4th Round tie.

This is a charter to Leeds on 9/3/68 using an ex LMR set. It was hired by Bristol City and was called The Chairman's Special.
The 15th January 1972 to Leeds charter was for Bristol Rovers and it was Western 8 car set however it wasn't strictly the South Wales Pullman as it had been.
By now the 2x6 Midland Pullman sets were no longer run as a 12 car Bristol Pullman after 4/10/71 and the 8 car sets received a combination of Western and Ex Midland vehicles as you can see happened here.
This was 60099's original half set intact plus a mixture of 4 vehicles including the ex Midland Power Car 60093.  At this time 60093 was usually used on the Bristol Pullman (now back to 8 cars).
60099 was the first power car to be out of service in October 1972.
60738+60748+60749+60739+60648+60649 were used on the Wales trip but ended up with W60093 again and W60096.
There were two Welsh Pullmans by now.... South Wales Pullman and Swansea Pullman ....as in Swansea to Padd and then Padd to Swansea.
  
 

[Mikeastons]

23 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

£20M or so to recreate the original Blue Pullman train? I guess with that money the ELR could do way more than build a six coach DMU!

 

Shame - it would have been nice to see “in the flesh” (and as lovely as the HST in Nanking Blue is, it isn’t really a Blue Pullman, is it??)

 

Steve S

Yeah the quote from Stadler was £18mill about 6 years ago so I've guessed it would be a couple of million more.
The HST BP is of course a much nicer,faster,more comfortable train than the original and we should be grateful it has happened BUT of course the bigger dream is to see a 1960 BP recreated.
What was great was when we did the book my research led to tons of info, photo's etc coming our way and I also unearthed around 30 artefacts from the trains.
 

[Mikeastons]

On 18/09/2023 at 19:07, Michael Hodgson said:

It may not be a Midland set, but here's another blue Pullman on the ECML

Although this is a 'Blue Pullman' in name that ran in 2006 non of these vehicles were genuine Pullman vehicles. It was however very nice to travel on which I did in 2006.I was sad it was so short lived.

[Mikeastons]

On 18/09/2023 at 11:58, hexagon789 said:

I think is a WR set, the trailing vehicle looks to be a Motor Second rather than Motor First - three large windows rather than two plus a frosted lavatory one.

 

On 18/09/2023 at 11:58, hexagon789 said:

I think is a WR set, the trailing vehicle looks to be a Motor Second rather than Motor First - three large windows rather than two plus a frosted lavatory one.

No,it was deffo Midland Set 1 so power car's M60090 and M60091 ...driven by Jimmy Gilmour that day.

[Mikeastons]

On 17/07/2017 at 08:21, Pete the Elaner said:

Needed haulage over the South Devon banks because of a risk of their traction motors overheating too.

Designed for 100mph running but could only ever do 90 because they were not powerful enough.

A 'Premium'. Train whose ride quality was easily beaten by a Mk1 on Commonweath bogies.

 

With regards to failing to do what they were designed for, these must have been the biggest technical failure on BR since Leader.

 

Is it just me or was the Blue Pullman also the most ugly thing ever to run on BR metals?

You aren't quite accurate in some of your comments especially when put into the correct context. 
In regard to the banking you are referring to two Charters in 1970 and 1971 for Holiday Inn...so not something the trains were intended to do back in 1959. 
It was precautionary.
The Blue Pullmans could actually do 105 mph but their route was limited to 90 mph ...hence all the advertising referred to 90 mph and the advantage of Blue Pullman was it could maintain the 90 mph on the gradients on the Peak District route.
In regard to the ride then yes the two Midland Pullman 6 car sets had a problem before they went into service. However they were heavily modified within a year and the rest of the design was incredibly successful ,from the external look of the Blue Streak to the lovely interiors ...and of course the staff provided a great service.
On the Birmingham 8 car set there was some rocking and rolling too from Wolverhampton ...not as bad the first two set but despite this people still loved the service.
On the Bristol Pullman there aren't many complaints about the ride until the two Midland Pullman sets went over to Western use in 1967.
So actually they did achieve much of the original goal. Their image, a beautiful modern train with a power car either end looked modern and luxurious. It improved the image of the railways.
It looked good in adverts....so that image reached people who couldn't afford to travel on it.
It helped the battle against airlines and motorways.
It also helped the design of later trains. Sir Ken Grange worked for Jack Howe who designed the shape and interior fittings of the BP. One reason for removing the BP''s a bit early was the HST prototype was painted in the reverse grey livery the BP's were repainted into between 1967 and 1970  ...and they looked similar to the non expert passenger.
It also gave info about what the market wanted...a fast comfy air conditioned train that looked modern but for more every pocket...hence the HST's layout /the APT having the look of a power car either end (even though the power cars for APT-P were actually in the middle)
They worked hard for 13 years and did a job. Hardly the biggest technical failure is it?
Not perfect but then a lot of the trains aren't.
Most ugly train ....not many have that view.
There is maybe an argument for an ex Midland power car with a dented front and the jumper cables on looking not so nice but it's hardly the worst looking train.
I interviewed many passengers ...they all loved it even when the ride wasn't great.

[Mikeastons]

On 12/07/2017 at 15:27, Karhedron said:

The Blue Pullmans were not uncommon on Railtour duty and could be found away from their usual stomping grounds. There is one at Hull but the photos were hosted on Photobucket and are no longer available.

 

If you fancy a little bit or Rule1, there was talk of using them on the Southern Region for the Bournemouth Belle. In the end that came to nothing but would make a good "what-if" scenario.

 

The best resource to see where they went is the 6 Bells railtour site as this lists railtours by year as well as the stock that worked them.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Blue+pullman+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sixbellsjunction.co.uk%2F60s&oq=Blue+pullman+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sixbellsjunction.co.uk%2F60s&aqs=chrome..69i57.6277j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is Hull at Botanic Gardens. The Midland 6 car set 2 was not there on a charter. This was a trial to see if a Hull service was worth doing to compete with the airport and the set was there for a week at the end of April 1966. 
Botanic Gardens did actually have the shore supply fitted ,Blue Pullman manuals provided and a travelling fitter was even chosen who was called Lawrie Scrivener.
The pic is copyrighted to Leonard Rogers.
 

[Mikeastons]

On 14/07/2017 at 20:08, slilley said:

I think that set was still in Nanking Blue and was one of the former Midland 6 car sets. It was the occassion of Bristol City playing Leeds United in the FA Cup 5 Round on 9 March 1967.  Bristol City lost 0-2 and Leeds United's Gary Sprake was sent off in the 77th minute for laying out Bristol City's Chris Garland.

Hi Simon,
I've put a pic on of the 1967 Nanking Blue visit but there was also a reverse livery charter in 1972....but for the Rovers!

[Mikeastons]

On 08/09/2023 at 23:40, roythebus1 said:

Reminds me, I must get my Kitmaster set finished!!

 

ISTR a BP set being used for a trip on the PAdd-OOC shuttle for an open day back in the 1970s. I had a look inside the set at OOC and still have the souvenir ticket somewhere.

I've got 2/9/72 as an OOC open day. Here's a pic Copyright Jim Eades 

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, Mikeastons said:

Yeah the quote from Stadler was £18mill about 6 years ago so I've guessed it would be a couple of million more.
The HST BP is of course a much nicer,faster,more comfortable train than the original and we should be grateful it has happened BUT of course the bigger dream is to see a 1960 BP recreated.
What was great was when we did the book my research led to tons of info, photo's etc coming our way and I also unearthed around 30 artefacts from the trains.
 

 

It must be cheaper to rebuild the HST cabs to more represent the original BP,,, just sayin'!!!

 

Mike.

[Mikeastons]

6 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

It must be cheaper to rebuild the HST cabs to more represent the original BP,,, just sayin'!!!

 

Mike.

That's been looked into too but the consensus was a new build is more cost effective ....remember the BP power cars had passenger seating as well.
However I've always said if people think they can do something then they should do it and so far the only  person to do anything suggested is the owner of LSL with the HST.
I have tried to get him to fund just a mock up cab of the BP but he wasn't keen as it didn't have a practical use for him.

[Trevellan]

6 hours ago, Mikeastons said:

You aren't quite accurate in some of your comments especially when put into the correct context. 

 

Sadly, a common practice on all forms of social media. Comments based on false assumptions, half-baked "facts" and personal bias, way out of context.

 

Having ploughed through the Robertson and Smith history of the BPs there can be no doubt that there were many technical failings. However, the concept was excellent and undoubtedly paved the way for the IC125. The design might not have pleased everyone, but the BP hit all the right notes for public perception and certainly looked the part.

 

I have enjoyed the factual elements of this thread, seeing how many special workings occurred.