GWR Drinking Water Tank Wagon Dia DD1

[brossard]

NO he doesn't. If it is the 1950s and in BR black then the lettering is yellow lining paint to BR spec. no 32A item 43 (colour to BSC 356)

 

Paul

 

Paul, is the spec you cite bright yellow or more of a straw?  Consensus is black for the body then.  Thanks all for the input.

 

John

[brossard]

I found this:

 

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/uk_organisations.asp?cOrg=BR

 

Described as Golden Yellow.  My goodness we are making good progress.

 

John

[hmrspaul]

Thanks John.  I've been mulling over why the kit notes should say green.  There is reference to Tourret's wagon book, so perhaps it comes from there.   To my mind though, yellow on green seems to work better than yellow on black.  Anyway matching black on my transfer sheet is easier than green.  BTW one of the first things I did was have a look at your range.  It even crossed my mind to see about some custom transfers.  However, as these are only letters, I think I can do them myself.

 

I recall several years ago building some GWR ballast wagons in early 60s condition.  My finishing was inspired by pictures I found on Paul's site - black with homemade white lettering.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

I  have no idea where the idea of green came from, at any stage in the history of this wagon.

 

It is very difficult to find good colour photos of the black period of departmental stock. It had gone out of use years before I had a camera. There was a period of gulf red before olive green became the departmental stock colour. Writing on the black wagons I photographed was often redone years after any use of yellow lining paint had gone, so white was used. I believe a 1950s livery is wanted. However this Shark, many years later has a clear difference in the colour of the writing compared to the white of the handrails etc. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sharkzuv/e14e07142

 

I don't believe a drinking water wagon would deteriorate very quickly, they wouldn't be hard worked but kept as stores in sidings for large parts of their lives. Having said that the two GWR drinking wagon tanks I photographed were both very poor. This one has been roughly rewritten http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrtankwagon/e2595cafc -possibly not repainted for at least 25 years. And why this appears to be cream I have no idea http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrtankwagon/e2abe87e2  It doesn't appear to be the freight stock grey undercoat showing through.

 

Paul

[brossard]

Thanks for those pictures Paul.  I did visit your site in hopes of finding a picture but only found the two you reference.  There doesn't seem to be much contemporary BR 50s/60s info on this vehicle so we are going to have make an educated guess.  As I mentioned earlier, black on white does seem a sensible colour scheme for a wagon like this.  Perhaps the notes author was thinking of the departmental olive green you mention where yellow lettering would look right.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

John

[brossard]

So, let t'battle commence.  I though I'd start tonight by doing the tedious task of punching out rivets:

 

P1010001 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

The kit mainly consists of the two etched brass sheets.  There's a bag of quite good looking whitemetal castings and a set of turned buffers with threaded shanks.

 

You can see all the rivets.  Not too difficult really.  I rest the brass on a piece of good quality plywood (you can use a cutting mat too) and use the scriber and hammer to knock them out.  Three moderately firm taps with the hammer brings the rivets out.

John

[John Isherwood]

Thanks for those pictures Paul.  I did visit your site in hopes of finding a picture but only found the two you reference.  There doesn't seem to be much contemporary BR 50s/60s info on this vehicle so we are going to have make an educated guess.  As I mentioned earlier, black on white does seem a sensible colour scheme for a wagon like this.  Perhaps the notes author was thinking of the departmental olive green you mention where yellow lettering would look right.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

John

 

John,

 

There really isn't any mystery about the first BR steam era departmental wagon livery - it was black bodywork with straw (lining) yellow lettering.

 

Whether it looked 'right' or not, white lettering was only used to refresh or replace the lettering on a black wagon at a much later date.

 

Gulf red painted wagons had white lettering, as did departmental olive green ones; yellow lettering might have looked 'right' on the latter, but it wasn't used.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[brossard]

OK John, thanks for that.  I think I'm getting there.  When you say "later date", do you have any particular time frame in mind?  The timeframe I'm doing is ~ 1962.

 

John

[John Isherwood]

.....When you say "later date", do you have any particular time frame in mind?  The timeframe I'm doing is ~ 1962.

 

John

 

John,

 

After white was used on Gulf Red and, later, Olive Drab liveries - Gulf Red from 03/60; Olive Drab from 01/63; (according to Bartlett, Paul W. (1992) Gulf red - a nearly forgotten BR livery. Modellers' Backtrack vol. 2 (part 4) pp 184 - 188).

 

Often, a wagon would not be fully repainted after minor overhaul; the lettering would just be redone with whatever lettering paint was current - ie. white.

 

Regards,

John.

[Fat Controller]

Out of interest, where were these wagons used, and to whom did they supply water? I can remember the former milk tanks, which seemed to be present at most depots in the late 1960s, but not these ones.

[brossard]

Excellent John, I have a copy of your reference.  (What a great magazine that was and unfortunate that it was so short lived). 

 

The article makes a passing mention of black being used for "service vehicles" in 1959, but not lettering colour.   The article goes into some detail about Gulf red and white lettering which was mandated in 1960.  In 1963, things changed again to Olive Drab. (wagons with wooden bodies on wooden underframes were not required to be painted).  There is one paragraph that caught my eye "...no tank wagons were included.  These had separate painting instructions and they continued to be painted black."

 

Brian, I'm certainly no expert on these and, based on the kit notes these were used to supply stations with drinking water, presumably where there was no municipal connection.  Not sure I'd be all that comfortable drinking water direct from these.  I hope that the water was treated in some way before being supplied to passengers.

 

John

[John Isherwood]

Excellent John, I have a copy of your reference.  (What a great magazine that was and unfortunate that it was so short lived). 

 

The article makes a passing mention of black being used for "service vehicles" in 1959, but not lettering colour.   The article goes into some detail about Gulf red and white lettering which was mandated in 1960.  In 1963, things changed again to Olive Drab. (wagons with wooden bodies on wooden underframes were not required to be painted).  There is one paragraph that caught my eye "...no tank wagons were included.  These had separate painting instructions and they continued to be painted black."

 

Brian, I'm certainly no expert on these and, based on the kit notes these were used to supply stations with drinking water, presumably where there was no municipal connection.  Not sure I'd be all that comfortable drinking water direct from these.  I hope that the water was treated in some way before being supplied to passengers.

 

John

 

Water was supplied, particularly to remote crossing-keepers' houses, where there was no mains supply. Quite often, this would be carried in milk churns or other similar containers on the locomotive running plates.

 

I would imagine the water tank vehicles, of which there were also cylindrical tank versions derived from milk tank wagons, were used to supply larger premises which had storage tanks. It is signiicant that some / all of the milk tank wagons had glass linings; perhaps the drinking water tank wagons were similarly equipped?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[brossard]

Nice to be able to put these in some kind of context.

 

This morning I worked on the tank assembly:

 

P1010003 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

P1010002 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

The sides require a curve to be formed which was something of a challenge.  I used a drill bit and clamps mostly.  I then used a slightly larger bit as an anvil to smooth the curve.  It all came out reasonably well. 

The sides are slightly long I think.  There's a half etched rebate at each end of the side where the ends are supposed to sit.  I had to file the end curve to blend with the half etch to get a decent fit.

 

I've seen several threads lately about soldering and the dread thereof.  I thought I'd say a few words about what I did here for the benefit of those who are still unsure of the process.

 

I'm using my Weller variable temperature soldering station for this, 50W rating.  There is a lot of metal mass and I set the tip temp. to nearly 400C (I normally use 345C) to get the solder going.  The solder is DCC concepts 145C (I suspect it is lead free, something I usually don't like, but this seems to work OK).  My flux is Tix which I can get at my local hobby shop.

An interesting thing to note is that I could see the tip temp take a dive from the nearly 400C set point to around 360C whenever I applied solder.  The flux, solder and workpiece will all absorb heat and the iron must have the cajones to recover quickly.

Solder was applied in a series of tacks working at one end of the piece, then the other.  The tacks were eventually joined together in a seam.  It's always a good idea to start with a couple or three tacks.  You can then inspect alignment and squareness.  It is easy to undo a tack to make a correction.  Trying to undo a seam is very difficult.

John

Edited June 21, 2017 by brossard

[Guius]

Looks like it's coming together nicely John, thanks for the photos.

The only other thing I'd add to the soldering 'dos' is make sure everything is cleaned well prior to applying the iron. Also after to get rid of the remnants of potentially corrosive flux

 

Best

Guy

[John Isherwood]

Looks like it's coming together nicely John, thanks for the photos.

The only other thing I'd add to the soldering 'dos' is make sure everything is cleaned well prior to applying the iron. Also after to get rid of the remnants of potentially corrosive flux

 

Best

Guy

 

.... and acquire a cheap ultrasonic cleaner - 180 secs. in a very dilute bath of hot-ish water / washing soda / washing-up liquid, will get rid of any 'grot' and acidic residues - use after every construction session.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[brossard]

I thought cleaning went without saying Guy.    Yes, the kit is going together quite well.

 

Ultrasonic cleaner, yes I suppose I should get one John.  Until then I'll just bodge along.

 

I've now got the buffer beams and solebars on, more pics later.

 

John

[brossard]

So, I've made a lot of progress.

 

Looking more like a wagon now:

 

P1010001-001 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

P1010002-001 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

I won't bore you with a blow by blow.

 

I am stuck now waiting for wheels which were ordered getting on for 2 weeks ago.

I spent a lot of time scraping off excess solder and generally cleaning up.

John

[brossard]

I decided to use some slave wheels from another project in order to make progress on this wagon.  The next step was brake gear and, TBH, this is a disappointment.   I meant to take a picture but forgot.  You can see the brake etch in the picture from post 30.  It is merely a flat representation of the brake shoes and push rods.  This won't do sez I, I have a rep as a brake gear geek to uphold.

So, out came the Dremel and I set out to basically scratch build the brakes using the kit etch as a basis.  I carved shoes from some scrap strip, 8 in all because they needed to be double thickness.

It took a while but here is the result:

 

P1010001-002 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

P1010002-002 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

Plastic kit and RTR manufacturers would have us believe that the brake push rods are solid.  They're not and comprise two parallel bars linked to the brakes.  I did need to fettle the clearance between brake and wheel and the wagon is running freely.  The wheels weren't fixed and quite sloppy so I expect I'll have to do a bit more when the proper wheels arrive.

John

[Simond]

John

 

It looks like the brake cranks on the two sides of the wagon are not parallel, which they need to be if the brake gear is not independent.

 

Not sure what was fitted to these wagons, but I assumed they'd be Dean-Churchward originally. Certainly your photo & drawing show a lever, it doesn't appear on the drawing, but I guess a lever & "clutch" would be fitted to the other side?

 

Best

Simon

[brossard]

Quite right Simon.  The orientation is as intended by the kit (I think).  Given that these are unfitted and not equipped with Morton brakes, I'm pretty sure the brakes should be independent.  After posting the above, I found whitemetal shoes so I'm annoyed that I spent so much time fabbing them - to the wrong pattern as well.     I've reshaped the brass shoes that I made to accept the cast ones.  One advantage is that I will get a triple thickness brake shoe.  Another is that they will look right.

 

John

[brossard]

The brakes are definitely independent.  I'm a bit confused with what you're saying Martyn.    Only the brakes on one side will be applied when that lever is pulled.  I have a rod across the wagon for now to provide more strength but it will be cut.

 

The brakes are arranged as in the drawing in post #1.

 

Uh oh, Martyn's post vanished. 

 

John

Edited June 25, 2017 by brossard

[Simond]

Er, Martyn,

 

As I understand it, if the brakes are independent, then this means that the brakes on one side of the wagon are not connected to those on the other. So it wouldn't release / apply on one side or the other - there wouldn't be a cross shaft. This isn't the same as "unfitted".

 

Explanation here; http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html

 

Best

Simon

[brossard]

Just as I thought Simon, thanks for the informative link.

 

John

[3 link]

Sorry Chaps,

 

My post vanished because I realised I was talking rubbish , it's been a long day......

 

Martyn.

[brossard]

LOL, I thought you might have changed your mind.  Done that myself.    At least here you can take your words back.

 

John

[brossard]

Here's where I am at close of play today:

 

P1010001-003 by John Kendall, on Flickr

 

V hangers on, rod between them is temporary and will be removed.  Rivet strips at the top of the ends and sides.  The roof, what a PITA!  and more rivet strips.

 

I can still see places that need more cleaning, although I probably shouldn't get all OCD about it.

 

What opinions are there on roof colour?  I'm leaning towards grey as other BR wagons would have.

 

Another question I'll throw out - I struggle to get the solder to flow even with the iron set to 400C.  Even then, the solder feels muddy and will eventually flow after I've left the iron to heat up the metal.   I'm using DCC Concepts Sapphire 145 solder and a non acid flux.  Should I be using something else?

 

John