Class 205 in Conjunction with Kernow Model Shop

[90rob]

I wonder how many people on the 'blue' waiting list have by this time moved projected layouts eastwards, added a third rail, and gone for the blue 2-epb instead. At around half the price it is very tempting...

[SRman]

I like that suggestion but you would still need two DMBS vehicles (one powered, the other better unpowered, which means getting two 2 EPBs. 

 

Still, with some adaptation, one could then contemplate a class 204 (3T) unit from the 2 EPB DTS and 2H unit combination.

[Dogmatix]

I like that suggestion but you would still need two DMBS vehicles (one powered, the other better unpowered, which means getting two 2 EPBs. 

 

Still, with some adaptation, one could then contemplate a class 204 (3T) unit from the 2 EPB DTS and 2H unit combination.

 

Yes, you'd need two 2EPBs - the DMBS body from one would go on the chassis (and adapted seat inlay) from the DTS. The only snag is that the unpowered power pick-up bogie would be the wrong type. You'd either just have to swallow that, or try the tricky job of grafting sides from the powered bogie onto the unpowered one, or get hold of a spare CEP unpowered powere bogie. Or you could de-power the DMBS by removing the motor and the cogs in the bogie to permit free running. Howerevr, the heavy motor box has to remain to fit the bogie back in, and the whole thing is then rather heavy (been there, done that).

 

The 3T was, if I recall correctly, made up by inserting a 2EPB trailer coach, with the yellow end painted over. This wasn't done until the late 70's, when 2H's were all wearing blue - I'm fairly sure that green did not survive till then - and Kernow have yet to furnish us with blue 2H's, so it means a repaint job.

[SRman]

Yes, the 3T units were blue initially then blue and grey, neither of which is currently available from Kernow and only the blue is projected at this stage. The problem also would exist if you were swapping bodies, chassis and/or bogies that any coaches within the units (3H, 3T or 4 EPB) all require the couplings with through contacts if the lighting is to work from the one decoder.

It's starting to get messy!!  

[brushman47544]

Having pre-ordered one of the green SYP versions when we could, I have to say I was disappointed they were not included in the first batch, but was happy that Kernow MRC confirmed they would be produced later. However, 'not before 2014' sounds quite ominous and suggests no time soon since Bachmann is now starting to suffer (like Hornby) from production delays awaiting productions slots.

 

In the absence of more concrete information, I have been wondering whether to buy an orange V version, which at least has the later engine room grills and horns, rather than risk missing out for the longer term. But on the other hand, I can't see Kernow MRC dropping these other variants permanently and even if they did, Bachmann would I'm sure make some arrangement with the tooling so they could produce different versions later as they do with other Commissions.

 

As far as the three car version is concerned, the tooling passing to Bachmann is I suspect the most likely way we will see a centre coach. Bachmann will I am sure be aware of the potential not just as a 3H but also for 4EPBs and the economics should be better if the tooling can be used more widely.

[Butler Henderson]

A green 3H is required for Warmington if its to appear in its mid 60s format as I do not know what else to replace the Maunsell push-pull set with from its c 1960 format, unless anyone can suggest someother diesel unit that is available and was common at Southampton.

[kintbury jon]

In terms of a chassis for a 3H, a CEP trailer coach may do the trick as it should (in theory) be wired correctly.  Using a Replica suburban body or cut n shut EPB shells could be placed on top.

 

It is a shame, I quite fancied a thumper when it was announced but delays, lack of centre cars and availability of EPBs at a much lower price has removed any need for one.  It does frustrate me a little waiting for a 2HAP to be announced.  I'd love to get my hands on a couple of Thumper trailer bodyshells to swap for an EPB one.

[RFS]

I did fancy employing a large amount of modeller's licence and using a CEP trailer to make a 3-car unit, as some class 207s were so configured for a while - eg http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class207_2.html   and also http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class207_4.html

 

However these units were never anywhere close to being green in this configuration!  I must say the extra coach made such a difference to the unit but I've not pursued it.  Incidentally, the CEP's lighting circuit is slightly different as its interior lights only worked in one direction, but all the 2H's lights (headcode and interior) displayed correctly through the CEP trailer.

Edited October 14, 2013 by RFS

[kintbury jon]

The one to model would be 205205, (originally 1111 & 205101).  This would require gangways though!

[robertcwp]

Rather disappointing that there is no 3-car unit in sight.  The 2-car units are too limited in time period, apart from the few that remained so until the 1980s, and they are too limited in geographical area.  I think a 3-car set would sell much better as it would have much wider appeal.

 

Here is one at Bristol Temple Meads:

 

3H_1124_BTM_13-4-76 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[southernelectric]

Very tempted to get the Connex one, I have the blue one on pre-order and very seriously tempted to pre-order the green SYP and NSE versions as well when Kernow start taking pre-orders for these again!

[Gwiwer]

 

I think a 3-car set would sell much better as it would have much wider appeal.

 

 

I absolutely agree.  However I'm also sure that if Kernow had felt they could resource the 3H at the time they would have done so knowing that this was the configuration most units ran in for most of their lives.

 

I'm also sure that the good people of Kernow MRC must be as frustrated as the rest of us at how long it's taken to get even a small number of these units on the shelf and that this must surely be affecting their financial projections and ability to now consider whether a 3-car unit can be offered at any time.  

 

But unless you hear a corpulent female raising her voice in song from the south west there's still some hope

[griffgriff]

I do hope I don't smell a rat and that a certain manufacturer hasn't launched a commercial torpedo buy slowing down supply and preserving the market for themselves... crossing my fingers that Kernow has a 'bullet proof' contract.

[90rob]

I think a 3-car set would sell much better as it would have much wider appeal.

 

 

 

Yes I would like a 3-car set too, but I think I will be pragmatic about this. As modellers we all have to make compromises with regard to platform length, radii etc, so why not make a compromise with regard to unit length? I really want to see the 205 in blue, and if Kernow are prepared to make the financial gamble on producing more units then I think we should support them, albeit at a rather higher price than Bachmann might offer them for at some vague date in the future. There were certainly a couple of 2 car sets running aournd in br blue (IIRC there is a picture in John Dedman's 'BR Blue - Southampton and the New Forest' which I don't have to hand right now) so there is a precedent if you really need one. If you think about it, unless you have a large tail chaser, do you really need three coaches? - you will still be getting one of the nicest units around at the moment, and that distinctive thumper sound and face!

[Southernman46]

Rather have a Blue 2-car sometime soon than a 3-car whenever

[locoholic]

_{Would it not be possible to make a blue 2-car Class 205, and then make the centre car and sell them separately to whoever wanted one?}

[90rob]

_{Would it not be possible to make a blue 2-car Class 205, and then make the centre car and sell them separately to whoever wanted one?}

 

Yes it would be perfectly possible, and I think that that was Kernow's original intention. It is just a matter of economics really - development costs, production costs etc, and then you might be looking at a limited market - everyone with a 2-car unit might not buy one!

[Guest maxthemapman]

What is the expensive part with development these days? Presumably, all the information is already computerised. The trailer cars, I would guess, must already exist on a computer somewhere, or if not, could be made up in a few day's work.

 

Bogies and underframe already exist as moulds. Presumably, moulds would have to be created from the solebar upwards, seats, glazing, bodywork etc. This is the sticking point in terms of price? No criticism of Kernow, I am just interested in the development process, and whether anything further might happen in the future to reduce the production costs of models, especially relatively simple ones such as this, still further.

[Gwiwer]

Assume nothing of use is already on a computer somewhere.  What is required are laser scans which aren't routinely done without good reason.

 

So for a trailer:-

 

1.  Locate suitable trailer vehicle

2.  Approach owner with a request to have it scanned

3.  Book scanning service

4.  Submit scans to existing manufacturer (in this case, because the 2-car unit is already in production)

5.  Await CAD-CAMs 

6.  Tweak to correct errors

7.  Resubmit and await final version

8  Approve final CAD-CAMs

9.  Await painted sample

10.  Tweak if necessary, sign off and await final sample

11.  Final sample supplied, approved and production authorised

12.  Manufacturer awaits production slot with factory

13.  Item produced, shipped and available for sale.

 

And that's probably a simplification of the process given the detailed negotiations, endless phone calls and emails and is based on the assumption that there is already a manufacturer ready and able to take on the commission.  If it's an all-new project then there is a lot more groundwork to be done in the earlier stages.

 

All of this takes time and ties up a retailer's cash flow until the items can be sold.  Given the likely cost of a 3-car unit to research, produce and sell and the retail price of such a unit required to cover costs and turn even a very modest profit I suspect that KMRC felt those costs were unacceptably high.

 

There have clearly been production delays outside KMRC's control which has led to only a few of the units being produced so far and only after something like four years development time.  To include a trailer now might require another similar wait.  To have included it as an option in the original production plans might have pushed the cost per unit to over £200 and I can understand that a fair number of comments regarding the cost might have been posted - and interpreted rightly or wrongly as negative feedback - if that had been the case.  

 

It is unfair to compare a unique commissioned unit (as opposed to a special livery on a standard item) on price alone against a catalogue item so those who say the 4Cep is cheaper, while they are right in simple cash terms, overlook the more limited sales potential of a 2H / 3H and the fact that all the costs to bring it to market are borne by a single retailer and can only be recouped across a small number of units.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Gwiwer

[Guest maxthemapman]

But surely the whole point of MK1 based vehicles is that everything was standardised. I bet you that I could take the current CADs of the existing vehicles, some plans for basic dimensions, and a photograph of the roof, undreframe and ends, and make up a CAD trailer in a couple of days that you could not distinguish from an exhaustive attempt at steps 1-8 above.

[tender]

I wouldn't mind betting that the laser scan already exists. I don't know what prototype was used for the 2H scan but if it included the centre car you'd think they would scan it while they had everything set up.

[Gwiwer]

 

But surely the whole point of MK1 based vehicles is that everything was standardised.

 

 

To an extent.  But nothing is identical to a 3H trailer so it's effectively unique.

 

The unit I believe was scanned by Kernow does not have a centre trailer car.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Gwiwer

[tender]

To an extent.  But nothing is identical to a 3H trailer so it's effectively unique.

 

The unit I believe was scanned by Kernow does not have a centre trailer car.

 

That's a pity, the one Bachmann used for the sound chip recordings did.

[90rob]

That's a pity, the one Bachmann used for the sound chip recordings did.

 

...it was just a sound recording then....?!

[Pilgrims Way]

Does anyone know which unit will be produced in NSE livery?