For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[PhilJ W]

Ex BEA Routemasters operating in Romford January 1976.

Pictures by Barry Coward.

[Gwiwer]

6 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Ex BEA Routemasters operating in Romford January 1976

Showing several reasons why they were considered unsuitable and disliked by crews. 
 

No blind box - destination displayed only on a slip-board in the nearside front window which was hard to read at any time but impossible to see after dark. 
 

Not in red livery - although locals soon got used to that and most did eventually get repainted 

 

Front entrance platform doors on a crew-operated bus.  Under the control of the driver iirc. 
 

Two of these, RMA3 and 5, went to Upton Park as cover for the RMCs used on the X15. RMA5 was used most days; RMA3 was a rare bird. I managed a trip from Trafalgar Square to Beckton on RMA5 and learned that the crews had the same issues there. It was fitted with destination gear and it was red but the forward entrance caused a few issues at stops where only rear-platform buses normally stopped. 

[pH]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

Showing several reasons why they were considered unsuitable and disliked by crews. 

…

Front entrance platform doors on a crew-operated bus.  Under the control of the driver iirc. 
…

but the forward entrance caused a few issues at stops where only rear-platform buses normally stopped. 

Why would doors like that cause problems and be disliked by crews? 

[John M Upton]

18 minutes ago, pH said:

Why would doors like that cause problems and be disliked by crews? 

 

Too many people used to the rear platform heading automatically to the back of the bus and then looking perplexed at not finding the way on whilst said bus powers off into the distance?  Plus the usual Trade Union grumblings about changes of working practices, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

 

I have only met one RMA on my travels, proving that later they were retrofitted with blind boxes:

 

Whilst BEA went for forward entrance Routemasters, their rivals BOAC went for Atlanteans, saw one of those in a later life too:

 

[Gwiwer]

44 minutes ago, pH said:

Why would doors like that cause problems and be disliked by crews? 

Adding to John’s post at that time most routes were crew-operated and bus stops had historically been sited accordingly. 
 

Some locations were defined as “Headstop” or “Tailstop” where the front or back (respectively) of any vehicle stopping there must align with the stop fkag. Usually to avoid obstructing a road junction or busy driveway. 
 

Bus stop bays were mostly marked out assuming that passengers would board at the rear. 
 

Converting one route to something different (especially within the rigid London regime) would have caused issues with both crews and passengers having to stop and board in the wrong places. 

[pH]

I worked for a while as a conductor in two-person crews on fairly intensive town services. Any service could be operated by a mixture of front-door and rear-platform buses (Bristols). No stops that I can remember were designated ‘headstop’ or ‘tailstop’ as you call them. Drivers would stop with the doors or platform, as appropriate, opposite the head of the queue - passengers didn’t have to go looking for the entrance. 
 

So, obviously different operating conditions from what John and Gwiwer describe, and why I couldn’t see that the use of front-door buses would cause problems for either passengers or crew.

[Dunsignalling]

Though some places had "tandem" stops, one behind another, serving different routes.

 

If the queue at the forward one formed with an assumption of a rear entrance bus and a front entrance vehicle stopped at its head, it would block the rearmost bay.

 

[pH]

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Though some places had "tandem" stops, one behind another, serving different routes.

 

If the queue at the forward one formed with an assumption of a rear entrance bus and a front entrance vehicle stopped at its head, it would block the rearmost bay.

 

The queue formed starting at the stop pole, without any expectation of what type of bus would be arriving. Buses stopped with the entrance, front or rear, at the stop pole i.e. at the head of the queue as it had already formed. 
 

Yes, there were places where there was more than one stop, or where two buses arrived at a single stop, serving two routes, at the same time. In that case, passengers for the back bus had a short walk to board. Buses did not ‘pull up’ once they had stopped and passengers had started to board.

Edited September 10, 2022 by pH

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, pH said:

The queue formed starting at the stop pole, without any expectation of what type of bus would be arriving. Buses stopped with the entrance, front or rear, at the stop pole i.e. at the head of the queue as it had already formed. 
 

Yes, there were places where there was more than one stop, or where two buses arrived at a single stop, serving two routes, at the same time. In that case, passengers for the back bus had a short walk to board. Buses did not ‘pull up’ once they had stopped.

Agreed, but in some locations it might be difficult for a second bus to pull in without causing an obstruction if a front-entrance one  was effectively occupying both stops.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Rugd1022]

 

 

 

 

 

[pH]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

Agreed, but in some locations it might be difficult for a second bus to pull up without causing an obstruction.

This was in the 1960s - traffic, especially car traffic, was much lighter. And the attitude of most of our drivers to ‘causing an obstruction’ was “xxxx them, they can wait!”

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, pH said:

This was in the 1960s - traffic, especially car traffic, was much lighter. And the attitude of most of our drivers to ‘causing an obstruction’ was “xxxx them, they can wait!”

And truckers, in particular, wouldn't have been averse to getting their own back!

[great central]

11 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Ex BEA Routemasters operating in Romford January 1976.

Pictures by Barry Coward.

 

Look very much like the AEC Renowns bought by Nottingham City transport in 1965, seemed a bit odd going for a crew operated vehicle after several years of buying Fleetlines and Atlanteans which were readily adapted to one man operation. 

 

 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, pH said:

So, obviously different operating conditions from what John and Gwiwer describe, and why I couldn’t see that the use of front-door buses would cause problems for either passengers or crew.

London seemed to differ from everywhere else simply because it was London. Rigidly-applied rules, working practices (of which some were arguably well out of date) and solid trade union membership made change of any sort far harder than it should have been. 
 

London had forward-entrance crew-operated buses before the BEA coaches became local buses (the RF class was for many years crew-worked) and soon afterwards the DM variant of the DMS appeared. These were crew-worked dual-door buses without fare collection equipment at the driver’s position; they could not be worked one-man until some years later when all Fleetlines were modified to become one-man buses without Autofare turnstiles or conductors.  
 

I know of a good many areas where the bus fleets included front or rear entry with or (in the former case) without conductors. The ubiquitous Bristol FLF could be found quite literally from John O’Groats to Land’s End having front doors and a crew of two. In many fleets they worked alongside older rear-entrance vehicles serving the same stops and often on the same routes. In as many fleets they also worked alongside front-entrance the Bristol VRT type which was usually (but not always) a driver-only bus. 
 

As an example the Southern Vectis fleet on the Isle of Wight included FLF, FS and VRT types together and mixed them as required on the main routes 1 and 16 (Ryde - Newport - Cowes and Ryde - Shanklin - Blackgang) meaning you never quite knew what would turn up. But before around 7pm when a VRT turned up it would have a conductor aboard. 
 

London just had to be different and was still operating to 1930s rules in the 1980s. 

[Dunsignalling]

O.M.O proved highly effective on rural operations where only a few passengers board at most stops and the cost savings often prevented services being lost.

 

On busy urban routes, though, it massively extended dwell times at stops by comparison with conductor operation. 

 

John

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, pH said:

No stops that I can remember were designated ‘headstop’ or ‘tailstop’ as you call them. Drivers would stop with the doors or platform, as appropriate, opposite the head of the queue

Unattributed image of a London “Headstop” showing clearly that if the bus stopped with a rear platform at the pole then it would cause an obstruction. 
 

It wasn’t (and isn’t) always possible to site poles / posts / stop flags in more suitable locations. 
 

[pH]

3 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

The ubiquitous Bristol FLF could be found quite literally from John O’Groats to Land’s End having front doors and a crew of two.

I remember travelling on a FLF being operated as a one-man bus, in the Brighton area. The driver had to issue tickets, and handle money, through what was usually a small fixed window from the cab on to the front platform. To do that, he had to turn well over 90 degrees to his left and work over his shoulder. 

[Gwiwer]

I am aware of Brighton Corporation having adapted (let’s not say converted) a batch of Leyland Titan half-cabs with forward entrances for driver-only operation in the mode described - namely requiring an act of contortion to take fares and issue tickets. 
 

Southdown, also in Brighton and along the Sussex coast, experimented similarly with some “Queen Mary” full-front Titans which also required a square window to be cut into the rear emergency door to permit unaided reversing moves. 
 

The Corporation persisted with their batch for some years. Southdown did not. 

[pH]

37 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

I am aware of Brighton Corporation having adapted (let’s not say converted) a batch of Leyland Titan half-cabs with forward entrances for driver-only operation in the mode described - namely requiring an act of contortion to take fares and issue tickets. 
 

You’re probably right that it was a Titan, not a FLF. It was a long time ago (and now far away!)

[Johann Marsbar]

This picture taken in 1980 shows a sideways sitting driver issuing tickets to boarding passengers......

 

[Johann Marsbar]

I've just posted this in my "40 years of North American photography" thread, but it might as well go in here as well - A 1962 built GM "New Look" bus preserved at the Virginia Museum of Transportation..........

 

 

It's on loan to the museum from a preservation group and seems to originate from the Arlington, VA, area.

[J. S. Bach]

I think maybe Richmond, VA. Chamberlayne Avenue is one of the main streets and is signed US-301.

[Dunsignalling]

Slightly off-route. RF 627, pictured opposite the terminus of the Seaton & District Electric Tramway earlier today after my alfresco lunch on the prom at the Spot-On - excellent cheeseburger followed by ice-cream. Blackcurrant Cheesecake flavour - is that too much cheese in one sitting? 😇

 

Extra interest provided while dining by an enterprising yachtsman/woman observed making good headway eastbound right out on the horizon.

 

John

Edited September 16, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

One from the other side, RF 627 in company with vehicles belonging to Dartline and Stamps who provide many of the school services in the area. 

 

As an aside, Stamps is run by a chap I once worked with in the old Devon and Exeter Savings Bank (a constituent of the former incarnation of TSB) long before either of us got involved in public transport...

 

John 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[PhilJ W]

On 10/09/2022 at 01:19, PhilJ W said:

Ex BEA Routemasters operating in Romford January 1976.

Pictures by Barry Coward.

 

On 10/09/2022 at 08:13, Gwiwer said:

Showing several reasons why they were considered unsuitable and disliked by crews. 
 

No blind box - destination displayed only on a slip-board in the nearside front window which was hard to read at any time but impossible to see after dark. 
 

Not in red livery - although locals soon got used to that and most did eventually get repainted 

 

Front entrance platform doors on a crew-operated bus.  Under the control of the driver iirc. 
 

Two of these, RMA3 and 5, went to Upton Park as cover for the RMCs used on the X15. RMA5 was used most days; RMA3 was a rare bird. I managed a trip from Trafalgar Square to Beckton on RMA5 and learned that the crews had the same issues there. It was fitted with destination gear and it was red but the forward entrance caused a few issues at stops where only rear-platform buses normally stopped. 

From a passengers point of view they were very good. The seats were identical to the Greenline RCL's  with the same deep cushions and even the same grey/deep red moquette.