For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[ColinK]

Just been scanning more slides from 1989 - here is a slightly embarrassing one. 

 

I was working in the Schedules Department at Atherton depot and arranged to take one of our new Dennis Falcon's to the model weekend at Boyle Street Museum.  Myself and three friends were exhibiting a giant N gauge model railway and the bus was vital for getting the layout there.  On the way back on Sunday evening the Falcon broke down in Salford and had to be towed back to Atherton.

 

The Falcons were very unreliable and were only used on peak workings whenever possible.  They also had an automatic gearbox operated by push buttons, the first buses to have this at our depot.  Driver changes took place outside the depot. One day I was crossing the road from the offices to our depot and one of our lady drivers had just got behind the wheel of a Falcon, she opened the cab window and shouted to me 'Hey Colin, how do you drive this thing?'  It made me smile but the passengers were a bit worried.

 

[laurenceb]

Were they the ones with a Merc V8 engine?

[RANGERS]

1 hour ago, laurenceb said:

Were they the ones with a Merc V8 engine?

Thee Falcon H and HC had Gardner straight six engines. The Falcon V had V6 MB engines in the DD bus chassis and the coach version had a Perkins V8. The coaches were built for NBC had attractive Duple Goldliner bodies but were also notoriously unreliable, about half of them had caught fire before they were a year old, the rest reputedly never ran for long enough to get hot enough to catch fire.

[John M Upton]

The nearest to the Dennis Falcon I ever had a rather awful ride on was the Dennis Dominator.  Brighton Corporation had some after the Atlantean ceased production.

 

Seemed fairly popular with Corporations and all the ones I saw had East Lancs bodies which made the ride experience even worse (I still have yet to experience any East Lancs product that wasn't falling apart even when it was new!) 

 

A couple of my shots of the type:

 

 

[John M Upton]

And speaking of East Lancs, Brighton & Hove (the reborn BH&D) went with East Lancs bodies on Scania chassis for its first new double deckers, what we got were these hideous looking things:

 

I forget what that ugly thing on the right is.....

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by John M Upton

[Mike_Walker]

10 hours ago, John M Upton said:

And speaking of East Lancs, Brighton & Hove (the reborn BH&D) went with East Lancs bodies on Scania chassis for its first new double deckers, what we got were this hideous looking things:

 

I forget what that ugly thing on the right is.....

 

According to 'Bus Lists on the Web' it's a Leyland Swift (not to be confused with an earlier AEC product of that name) with a home built PMT body which figures, surely no commercial bodybuilder with come up with something that ugly?!  Those EL D/D bodies always looked as if the front was about to fall off.

[great central]

12 hours ago, John M Upton said:

And speaking of East Lancs, Brighton & Hove (the reborn BH&D) went with East Lancs bodies on Scania chassis for its first new double deckers, what we got were this hideous looking things:

 

I forget what that ugly thing on the right is.....

 

 

Definitely got the look of evolved Nottingham buses. There's one in the collection looking very similar with East Lancs bodywork.

https://nottinghamheritagevehicles728.weebly.com/vehicle-collection.html

[Mike_Walker]

Though I'd add a few here.  For me buses ceased to be of interest when the started putting the engine in the back and they all looked like boxes.

 

I had an uncle who was a draughtsman at Weymann's in Addlestone and he gave me a collection of official company images which I shall share. Starting from two inside the works.

 

 

Several 3RT3s in various stages of construction.

 

A batch of what appear to be dual entrance-exit AEC Regals under construction for Lisbon.  Anyone able to offer further details?

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Mike_Walker

[Metr0Land]

As mentioned above, the single deck Scanias at Stevenage weren't a resounding success. MS1,4 and 6 are seen early 1974 when there were great hopes for them, however it wasn't to last.  MS1 is seen again but this time June 1978 looking rather sorry for itself.  Of interest is that LCBS as well as LT trialled these against Leyland Nationals.  A small number were also painted in the yellow and blue livery seen on LN1 also in 1974.  There can't have been many Nationals with K-reg plates.  I wonder if any have survived at all?

 

[Gwiwer]

33 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

There can't have been many Nationals with K-reg plates.  I wonder if any have survived at all?

Cumberland Motor Services ERM35K is credited as being the first registered example in service.  Only LN1 and 2 carried their booked K-reg plates with London Country.  LN3-47 had KPA103-47K reserved but arrived too late and carried NPD103L etc instead.  Crosville was the other early operator with a small number (possibly only one) of K-reg Nationals with WFM801K being the first / only such example.  Midland Red, Southdown and Provincial were among operators with K-registrations booked for Nationals which were all voided in favour of L-reg plates due to delayed deliveries.  

Edited February 9, 2021 by Gwiwer

[Gwiwer]

45 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

at Stevenage ..... early 1974

The top image also shows two of the trio of RTs retained at SV after the 1973 conversion to one-person-operation of the trunk 303 / 303A routes.  These were handed over to SM and later LN operation with very mixed results in terms of passenger satisfaction and service reliability.  The works trips between Hitchin and Stevenage Industrial Area were renumbered 303C (I have never known what a 303B was) and required two RTs for four trips in each peak hour.  A third was retained as spare vehicle.  

 

All were early models; RT603, 626 and (identified by its JXN9 registration) 981.  RT981 went on to be one of the very last in service for LCBS having transferred south to Chelsham (CM) and the 403.  I also managed to find it at work substituting for a poorly RCL on the 414 out of Dorking (DS) as late as 1977.  Whilst their remaining work at SV was the 303C RT981 has its rear blind set for the 808 which was a single-journey hospital-visitor service between Chells and Hitchin (for the old Lister Hospital) withdrawn in 1971; by 1974 the number had been reassigned to a Harlow town route.  

[Metr0Land]

The only clear shot I have of RT981 is Kingston June 1977 on the 406 when presumably she was allocated to Reigate (RG)?

 

 

[Gwiwer]

3 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

RT981 is Kingston June 1977 on the 406 when presumably she was allocated to Reigate (RG)?

Most of the 406 was run from LH (Leatherhead) but RT981 did indeed spend a short time at RG in 1977 as extra cover.  At the time a large number of Routemaster CoFs were expiring and not being renewed as one-person-operation was brought in.  That resulted in random vehicle shortages and RT981 covered at both RG and DS in '77 for this reason after being rendered surplus at CM by hired vehicles.  It ended its LCBS life as a driver-trainer in 1978.  

[PhilJ W]

I recall seeing a Leyland National prototype/demonstrator in Lancaster about 1970/71. I don't remember the registration but it was painted a sand colour* with brown wheels.

*A very similar or the same colour was offered on contemporary BMC cars.

[Metr0Land]

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=105040&page=8

 

Also:

 

LN Demonstrator DRM 589K Lillyhall 26/10/77 by Brian, on Flickr

Edited February 9, 2021 by Metr0Land

[PhilJ W]

10 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=105040&page=8

 

Also:

 

LN Demonstrator DRM 589K Lillyhall 26/10/77 by Brian, on Flickr

That looks like the one though I don't remember the white roof and seeing as it was brand new when I saw it it was a lot shinier.

[ColinK]

21 hours ago, laurenceb said:

Were they the ones with a Merc V8 engine?

Correct. They sounded good. I liked driving them.

[Busmansholiday]

7 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

There can't have been many Nationals with K-reg plates.  I wonder if any have survived at all?

SELNEC EX30 has survived, I photographed it at the Robin Hood Rally in Nottingham in July 1972.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

That looks like the one though I don't remember the white roof and seeing as it was brand new when I saw it it was a lot shinie

 

FRM499K was the demo that most people remember, similar colours though.

 

As for driving them, the Mk I was pretty dreadful on anything but a perfectly dry road, slightest bit of dampness and they could be "fun".

 

 

 

 

 

[Gwiwer]

Fishwicks often received demonstrators for evaluation as they were based in Leyland but I don't recall them getting an early Leyland National.  

 

12 minutes ago, Busmansholiday said:

As for driving them, the Mk I was pretty dreadful on anything but a perfectly dry road, slightest bit of dampness and they could be "fun".

Fair comment but also remember that at the time they arrived many drivers had no experience of their weight distribution nor lightness of steering.  Numerous (relatively minor) incidents arose in the early days through misjudgment of one sort or another.  Several drivers were reprimanded after passenger complaints about excessive speed whilst cornering.  Many operators had rear-engined deckers in their fleets but lightweight power steering was not universal.  I drove a number of the early ones (L-reg, mainly) and found them a very different beast indeed to the previous generation of underfloor-engine Bristol RE and Leopard saloons.  

[John M Upton]

The Mk1 National did improve somewhat when the battery compartment was moved in the Phase II to under the drivers seat which made the weight distribution much better.  Northern did it first, taking an early model and making substantial improvements to it including the battery compartment modification, many of the alterations would later appear on the production Phase II model.

 

The MkII was even better with its weight distribution as the radiator got moved up the front as well.

 

Did a bit of digging around re K reg examples.  ERM35K was unfortunately stripped for spares and scrapped by Stagecoach but ex demonstrator FRM 499K is rumoured  to still be around somewhere.....

 

Alas a lot of Nationals have been bought for preservation but subsequently found to be money pits and been weighed in for scrap.

Edited February 9, 2021 by John M Upton

[ColinK]

I drove Mk1 Nationals, the worst vehicle in our mixed fleet to drive - awful brakes, long rear overhang, steering very light (especially when compared with other buses) and all the weight at the back.  It didn't help that most of the routes we used them on had some very tight corners - getting round Vulcan Village was very difficult.

 

The fleet while I was there included Guy Arabs, Fleetlines, Atlanteans,  DMS, single decks being Bristol RE, Seddon RU, Leyland Leopards and Nationals

[PhilJ W]

When I visited Malta back in the 80's they had just introduced the Ex London Transport AEC Swifts. Up until then the longest buses on the island were thirty feet long and most of the islands roads were narrow with very sharp corners. I watched one negotiating one such corner by having to shunt backwards and forwards. The Swifts were more successful than the subsequent ex London buses, the Bendibuses.

[Johann Marsbar]

One of the Fishwicks Nationals parked up at their depot in 1982.....

 

 

Suffolk County Council ended up with the prototype "Suburban Express" Leyland National in their School Bus Fleet and it's seen here on a local Transport Society evening trip to Hedingham Omnibuses in 1985....

 

 

It was subsequently preserved after SCC had finished with it.

[John M Upton]

Ah yes, the all high floor saloon prototype.  What were they thinking?  Compared with today’s mostly all low floor vehicles, this was a step backwards even then, fortunately not pursued any further.

[leopardml2341]

And there was this pioneering example....

 

 

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