For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[RANGERS]

2 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

When were you last in a crowd like this?  A couple of shots from Derby Day June 1983.  A general view showing multiple open-toppers and a Southdown Lodekka RPN11 with a driver trying to edge his way through the crowds.  I believe this vehicle was convertible so it had a proper top in the winter months.

 

London Country operated the 406F fom Epsom station to the race course each year.  It was a case of anything goes.  A couple from June 1980 with AEC Reliance RP21 and Leyland Atlantean AN30.

 

I had the pleasure of driving an empty FLF open topper from Cambridge to Epsom in the early 1990s. Early start along a deserted M11 and  M25, to arrive in time for a leisurely breakfast on the top deck before the party arrived by coach for the days events.

 

A snooze on the back seat of the empty coach before returning with the FLF in the early evening gave me a full days pay (seem to remember it was still 16 hours in those days) and hadn’t carried a single passenger.

The cleaning of the FLF the day after was a different matter though!

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, RANGERS said:

The cleaning of the FLF the day after was a different matter though!

The same everywhere.  Southdown used to share the workload by directing specific vehicles to different garages irrespective of actual allocation.  Worthing typically received ten.  Brighton (Edward Street) similarly and Lewes had a few.  I believe some went to Bognor and Chichester also possibly to Eastbourne.  The mess was quite appalling.  Seat-deep in waste paper and food wrappers, ankle-deep in bottles (not always empty; some were part-drunk, a very few had never been opened and several had been .... errr .... refilled  ) and usually with urine, vomit and sometimes solids on the floor.  The cleaners went through with a toothcomb.  Not just to avoid the worst of the unpleasant surprises but also because it was also common to find coins and banknotes among the litter.  Fifty years ago a £20 was quite a find; sometimes a single bus would yield up to £50!  

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

The same everywhere.  Southdown used to share the workload by directing specific vehicles to different garages irrespective of actual allocation.  Worthing typically received ten.  Brighton (Edward Street) similarly and Lewes had a few.  I believe some went to Bognor and Chichester also possibly to Eastbourne.  The mess was quite appalling.  Seat-deep in waste paper and food wrappers, ankle-deep in bottles (not always empty; some were part-drunk, a very few had never been opened and several had been .... errr .... refilled  ) and usually with urine, vomit and sometimes solids on the floor.  The cleaners went through with a toothcomb.  Not just to avoid the worst of the unpleasant surprises but also because it was also common to find coins and banknotes among the litter.  Fifty years ago a £20 was quite a find; sometimes a single bus would yield up to £50!  

By the sounds of it the cleaners deserve to keep any cash that they found.

[pH]

I remember being stopped by an inspector, on the way “private” to the garage for a meal break, and being told to swap our bus for a back-door Leyland PD3 that had been used on an excursion. As we started off, all the bottles on both decks rolled towards the back, with a few bouncing down the stairs and smashing on the platform. Fortunately, the bus had folding doors on the platform, so I just shut those and let the trash build up. 

[John M Upton]

Those Queen Mary convertible's of Southdown almost managed to outlast the convertible VR's that were supposed to replace them!

[John M Upton]

And indeed 409 is still going, not sure if the roof is still around though:

 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

409 is still going, not sure if the roof is still around though:

I believe it lurks in the depths of Chichester garage which is nominally home to 409 as a Stagecoach heritage vehicle.   Whether the crane still exists to lift it on and off is another question.  Southdown vehicles used to visit their Victoria Road, Portslade, Works for that job as that was where the roof racks were kept.   Conway Street, Hove, was the garage dealing with the BH&D Lodekka fleet in like manner.  Once upon a time Southdown would provide five Queen Mary open-toppers for the lengthy 102 between Devils Dyke and Arundel via the A23 north of Brighton and another pair for the 27 from Brighton to the Dyke direct up Dyke Road while BH&D paraded half a dozen Lodekkas of LD and FS types on the 17 "Sea Front Service" between Rottingdean and Portslade.  Both routes contracted over the years.  The 102 never returned after its winter break one year though a very abbreviated version ran in Worthing for a few years numbered 277 between Brooklands Pleasure Park and Goring using the LD / FS vehicles transferred from Brighton.  The Dyke Road service to Devils Dyke still runs, these days numbered 77, and is sometimes worked by Brighton & Hove's modern convertible top vehicles.  Brighton Corporation took on the 17 along the sea front for a few years after BH&D pulled out; it was extended east to Saltdean but terminated in the west at Hove Lagoon.  Decapitated PD3s were used from the batch illustrated earlier in this thread.  

 

[Gwiwer]

On the subject of BH&D Lodekkas here’s LD 2010 (originally BH&D 10) on Worthing sea front working the 277 mentioned above. Undated but I believe from 1975. 
 

 

And another which migrated - in this case eastwards - as 2021 waits at Birling Gap for the final evening trip down from Beachy Head into Eastbourne. At this time (also ?1975) the Top of Beachy Head run was around twice an hour with four trips extended to this fairly isolated spot. The Foot of Beachy Head route was always Eastbourne Corporation territory meaning Southdown had a minimum fare and boarding / alighting restrictions along the sea front to protect the Corporation’s traffic. That wouldn’t be allowed now. 
 

Not top quality images but these are iPhone photos from original 35mm (non-SLR) prints of mine. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Gwiwer

[Gwiwer]

A few more which came to light as I was looking for the Lodekka pics. 
 

Southdown’s actively-preserved Leyland Titan TD1 / Brush UF4813, carrying fleet number 0813, emerges from the Gardens garage at Worthing, then takes up private hire duty on the sea front outside the Dome cinema. 
 

The bus is still with us and so, remarkably, are both the Dome cinema and the town-centre garage of which the Gardens shed forms about one-third of the site. 

 

[John M Upton]

Twenty years ago, something rather more mundane emerging from that same shed/depot entrance, the Southdown lettering long since removed:

 

It was still lettered in 1988 though and there is 0135 (CD 7045) , the other grand old lady of the fleet along with an NBC Queen Mary and a demic Leyland National:

 

More recent times:

 

 

[Metr0Land]

Returning to Derby Day June 1983, it looks like I'd filmed RPN11 a few minutes before the shot I posted Sunday.  She was in the company of MDL952/OT2 from Southern Vectis. 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Looks like they're having a party on the lower deck.

[Clive Mortimore]

23 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

On the subject of BH&D Lodekkas here’s LD 2010 (originally BH&D 10) on Worthing sea front working the 277 mentioned above. Undated but I believe from 1975. 
 

 

Hi Rich

 

I use live on the opposite side of the road to the beach at Worthing, during the cold winter of 86-87 when the snow stayed on the beach for a couple of weeks, and the ice on the inside of my bedsit windows a couple more. No open top buses were running then, I don't know why, tourist are such wimps.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[Metr0Land]

By the mid 1970's London Transport were desperate for reliable buses.  They bought 6 each of Leyland National and Metro-Scania single-deckers for comparative trials on the S2 (Clapton and Bromley (by Bow station)) which was so converted Nov73-Jun76.  After the trials the Leyland National was deemed a reliable bus for its day, and the MS's were sold to Newport.  Eventually LT would buy 437 National 1's and a further 69 National 2's.  The Nationals were sent to Hounslow (AV) Garage joining the first batch of National 1's which were in fact a cancelled export order.  They would retain their white roofs until overhaul when they received normal paint jobs for the era.  (All photos Clapton Pond except LS5/82 at Hatton Cross)

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Metr0Land
typo

[Johann Marsbar]

13 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

  After the trials the Leyland National was deemed a relaible bus for its day, and the MS's were sold to Newport.

 

 

One of them at Newport depot in May 1985.....

 

 

 

[ColinK]

Leigh Corporation also had some single deck Scanias, nice buses and very nippy. I managed to drive one once.  Most of their fleet had to be single decks because the garage roof was low.

[Johann Marsbar]

29 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Leigh Corporation also had some single deck Scanias, nice buses and very nippy. I managed to drive one once.  Most of their fleet had to be single decks because the garage roof was low.

 

Leigh Corporation didn't exist at the time those buses appeared in 1972, they were SELNEC ones which were allocated to Leigh depot, later becoming GMPTE vehicles.

 

I photographed one in Warrington Bus Station in December 1981.....

 

 

 

[Gwiwer]

10 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

the MS's were sold to Newport

Not forgetting the one which ventured off-route the first day in service and ended up in, rather than at, Clapton Pond.  The driver allegedly misjudged the power of the thing.  They were quite beefy but as I was witness to some of the training within the confines of Dalston garage, wherein all moves were made very cautiously, I remain mystified as to the full circumstances of the swimming Metro-Scania.

 

I managed numerous rides on both types during the trial.  I felt the MS was marginally the better bus for passenger comfort though the Nationals seemed to be preferred by drivers.

 

London Country carried out a similar trial using Metro-Scanias against AEC Swifts on the intensive Superbus route (later routes SB1 and SB2) in Stevenage.  My attempts to ride an MS there met with failure as they were always off the road.  The story was "shortage of spares" which was ironic considering how desperate LCBS was for Swift spares and their need to hire in red Merlins from LT.  

 

In some ways it is perhaps a shame that the Metro-Scania didn't get a better reception in the UK.  Where ever they went they were a minority and sometimes unloved type.  Their double-deck cousins the MCW Metropolitans were also a solid beefy bus and appreciated by passengers but suffered from severe corrosion and again were only built in small numbers and hastily disposed of.  

[John M Upton]

One of the oddest purchasers of the Metro-Scania single decker was King Alfred Motor Services of Winchester who took three of them brand new.  They were later swapped by Hants & Dorset (who took over King Alfred) for three Nationals from London Country.

 

There was a double deck Scania Metropolitan in full as withdrawn London Transport livery parked in someone's back garden in Chichester of all places for many years.  I think that one got preserved?

[Johann Marsbar]

Leicester operated both types, seen here in January 1981....

 

 

[alastairq]

As a one time career[ing] bus driver, I cannot recall driving any MS types [may have, just not made an impression on anything with one]..but I do have some vivid impressions of Nationals in their various forms.  the one over-riding thing I recall of Nationals was, how thin the steering wheel was?  [Also, for a dirver brought up on zero power steering, what an odd angle the steering wheel was set at?]

The thin wheel was tolerable, until the time came when the power steering ceased to offer the 'power' bit?

 

To limp back home meant considerable bending of the rim of the steering wheel...Not something I wanted to happen [or to break it]...

The National 2s were better in this department, their steering wheels were altogether more beefy to handle...less like steering with granma's prize dinner plate.

The National 1s actual steering feel was somewhat odd as well....wobbly, is how I recall it. As if there was uncertaintly about where the driver actually wanted to go?

[John M Upton]

The Leyland National was originally designed to have car like controls, hence the rather domestic flimsy wheel that was probably a British Leyland parts bin dip job off something else.    Indeed a careers advice book I have from 1973 loudly applauds the National for, and I quote verbatim here - "Simpler controls for women drivers"

 

If you printed that sort of thing today you would get lynched....

 

[37114]

14 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

 

There was a double deck Scania Metropolitan in full as withdrawn London Transport livery parked in someone's back garden in Chichester of all places for many years.  I think that one got preserved?

That was MD60, it was privately owned and needed loads of body repair work, part way through it was sold to Ensign who finished the work and they still own it today.

 

Other than the horrific fuel consumption MCW's lack of corrosion treatment meant most rotted away very quickly, a number of the initially preserved examples have since been scrapped as beyond repair, including the preserved London single decker (all of the below were restored and rallied and are now scrapped):

 

MS4:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rootymasters/36026273443/in/photolist-2jjmewg-2iLFSmk-pAXneL-2iAyjWR-pLmzyD-G52mUu-Dq4mWa-2hPoCQT-nqAgvk-o3fTnX-nqAunJ-GaewxQ-WTw4Xz-nsDrtv-ude9id-PqYE2F-by4TAB-agR41g-2268roj-2kn7p4E-iuutxt-dDKQGT-PmQoKJ-9VdwGS-Fhg1Y8

 

Tyne and Wear 499:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/iainrobbie9/11728637846/in/photolist-eyJqh5-xgQkKN-iSqkpU-2k83mV6-zPVVf9-L9LDi9-Ltiqbi-2k83n6w-dNauzB-2hdbxVF-xJWDfp-im85WN-dkbgu1-2e7GmZW-9CED4e-o42PkZ-2cVGPzp-847d8M-b7vxsr-5xob5n

 

WYPTE 2612

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/26871365@N04/12273196234/in/photolist-2kaj8Fg-dcL92H-2k83mV6-bRFrv4-L9LDi9-2jbXfzA-28LWt9E-jGxkDC-ed3wSp-iUT8VK-HJqHB-9e3Pw1

On a similar vein, the MCW bodied DMS is much rarer in preservation than the Park Royal variant although DMS' in general are thin on the ground.

[37114]

15 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Not forgetting the one which ventured off-route the first day in service and ended up in, rather than at, Clapton Pond.  The driver allegedly misjudged the power of the thing.  They were quite beefy but as I was witness to some of the training within the confines of Dalston garage, wherein all moves were made very cautiously, I remain mystified as to the full circumstances of the swimming Metro-Scania.

 

That was the one time preserved MS4 that went swimming. I like you remain mystified as having seen a photo of the bus in the pond the bus must have been doing a fair speed to get fully in the pond. 

[Metr0Land]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

That was MD60, it was privately owned and needed loads of body repair work, part way through it was sold to Ensign who finished the work and they still own it today.