For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[RANGERS]

I do remember those running from the BEA building over the (District ?) railway junction.

What is in the roof space above the forward seats In the above photograph. I recall it being a void but this appears to be bulkier baggage in the roof space.

 

It did appear very LTE in its detailing; I assumed they were Park Royal bodies. So were these and the RMs towing luggage trailers actually operated by LT on behalf of BEA?

I also seem to remember that in the days of VC10s, BOAC ran very smart dark blue and white coaches from their stylish Art Deco terminal buiding overlooking Victoria station similarly from check-in and customs at Victoria.  Can't for the life of me remember their provenance..

 

When young I made a model of a pre-war generation of LT 'Inter Station Transfer' Leyland Cub half deckers from a Modelcraft 4mm scale 'Lineside Plan'.

dh

Depending which period of the VC10s you mean, the coaches would have been Harrington Cavalier bodied AECs, Duple Mariner bodied Ford 676Es or in the final period of BOAC, Plaxton Elite bodied AECs. I can't be sure but I believe the latter at least were operated by Rickards on contract to BOAC and were primarily for incoming tour traffic.

 

Additionally, the RMs were supplemented by D plate Weymann bodied Atlanteans, which lasted into BA days, and a single Park Royal bodied AEC Regent V, 220 CXK, originally an AEC demo I seem to think.

[runs as required]

Thank you, It was the Harrington Cavaliers. They delivered you to the snooty overnight 'Speedturds' that flew out to Blantyre, Malawi in the mid 1960s, where I flew a Cessna 182

I nearly posted that myself but thought I may have confused them with the mass of Harringtons that crowded out the coach station just down the road for East Kent; M&D and Southdown.destinations.

dh

[PhilJ W]

One of these trailers was sat in a hedge in a field by a lineside fence alongside the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway certainly until recently (didn't spot it earlier this year, so may not be there now, or it's completely engulfed in the hedge). I'm not aware of these trailers being built for use on anything other than the Airport shuttle, so I can only assume it really was one of those.

Some of the trailers were passed onto London Transport supplies department and used for uniform distribution, ironically they were hauled by some of the 4RF4's converted to mobile uniform stores. IIRC some also went to East Kent at Dover for use by the shuttle buses carrying foot passengers to and from the cross channel ferries.

 

Some of them were good for 65mph and we had a job to get passed them even with Leyland 0680 engined Bristol RE's on the Oxford-London service when it was originally routed along the M4. Mind you one or two of the RE's could easily exceed the speed limit.................not that I ever did such a thing!

That 65 mph was with the trailers, without the trailers they were good for 75mph. I followed an RCL going empty back to its depot from Brentwood down Brook Street hill late one night, my car speedo was recording 78 mph at it was pulling away from me.

Another bit of information about the RMA luggage trailers. The luggage was checked in and passed through customs in the central London terminal and then loaded into the trailers which were sealed by customs. At the airport the trailers were unhitched and taken to the aircraft behind a tractor. On incoming flights the luggage was loaded straight onto the trailer which was sealed by customs and only opened at the central London air terminal were customs and immigration processing took place. IIRC there was an incident where there was an explosion on one of the trailers en route to Heathrow, a bomb timed to go off when the plane was airborne but the flight was delayed.

Edited September 19, 2017 by PhilJ W

[Unicorn1]

Another shot from the RHDR rally, ex East Kent AEC Reliance WFN513 leaving Dungeness for New Romney. 10th September 2017.

 

 

Edited to include date.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Unicorn1

[chrisf]

I think the single letter London garage codes do have their origin in the LGOC era.  Let me test the old memory: B = Battersea, C = Poplar Athol Street, D = Dalston, E = Enfield, F and G I forget, H = Hackney, J = Holloway, K = Kingston, L = Loughton, M = Mortlake, N = Norwood, O = Old Kent Road, P I forget, Q = Camberwell. R = Riverside [Hammersmith], S - Shepherds Bush, T = Leyton, U = Upton Park, W = Cricklewood, X = Middle Row, now Westbourne Park.

 

Some two-letter codes began with T, eg TL = Catford.  This stood for Tilling.  I don't know what the A in such codes as AC [Willesden] and AL [Merton] stood for.

 

Chris 

[Gwiwer]

A-prefix codes, of which AB (Twickenham) would be my local shed were it still open, were an overflow series.

W and X were the last single letters used after which AB, AC etc. were used as far as AV (Hounslow). The next to be coded was Abbey Wood which took the coincidental AW being next in line but from then on two-letter codes based on the geographical location were used. Many were obvious such as UX for Uxbridge, some such as ON (Alperton) were not and in this case used the last two letters of the name since codes starting with A were already assigned even if no longer in use. RD was known as Romford until the vast new garage at North Street opened coded NS whereupon RD assumed the name Hornchurch which is where it was anyway. Similarly HW was Hanwell until HL opened as a new Hanwell garage when HW, being slightly farther west, assumed the name Southall.

 

A few other obscure ones existed once country garages gained codes. HG (Hertford) because all other suitable codes were already in use. Allegedly stood for Hertford Garage and not as some have suggested a road name. HG was on Fairfax Road. RE (Romford Express) only ran Green Line coaches. LS (Luton) is recorded by some sources as Luton South though there never was a "London" Luton North. Since the premises originated with the business of Strawhatter it is more likely to have referred to Luton Strawhatter.

 

Edited to include a link to a comprehensive listing here. I note this includes LN for Luton National however this was the premises occupied by United Counties which was a company having its roots in railway operations and related to Southern, Western and Eastern National as part of an earlier National bus company under the Tilling umbrella. Same Tilling as gave rise to TB, TC, TL.

http://www.self-preservation-society.co.uk/jotter/garagecodes.htm

 

Further mention of TL reminds me that this was Tilling Lewisham (though was always well to the south of what anyone calls Lewisham), was known more accurately as Catford Garage throughout the LT era but is now described even more accurately on destination blinds, stop panels and timetables as "Bellingham, Catford Garage".

Edited September 19, 2017 by Gwiwer

[PhilJ W]

I think the single letter London garage codes do have their origin in the LGOC era.  Let me test the old memory: B = Battersea, C = Poplar Athol Street, D = Dalston, E = Enfield, F and G I forget, H = Hackney, J = Holloway, K = Kingston, L = Loughton, M = Mortlake, N = Norwood, O = Old Kent Road, P I forget, Q = Camberwell. R = Riverside [Hammersmith], S - Shepherds Bush, T = Leyton, U = Upton Park, W = Cricklewood, X = Middle Row, now Westbourne Park.

 

Some two-letter codes began with T, eg TL = Catford.  This stood for Tilling.  I don't know what the A in such codes as AC [Willesden] and AL [Merton] stood for.

 

Chris 

I thought that the 'A' stood for Autocar, an operator connected to but not part of the LGOC in much the same way as Tillings. The single letter codes IIRC were only former LGOC garages, the two letter codes were applied to garages taken over from independants and other operators that were absorbed into London Transport in 1933 plus any subsequent new builds. Incidently RE mentioned above was said to stand for Romford Express being a Greenline garage (Taken over from Edward Hillman). The RD code was allocated to Hornchurch garage as it was the only 'red' garage in the area until North Street (NS) was opened in the 1950's.

[runs as required]

. I note this includes LN for Luton National however this was the premises occupied by United Counties which was a company having its roots in railway operations and related to Southern, Western and Eastern National as part of an earlier National bus company under the Tilling umbrella.".

I do remember that Eastern National used to have an isolated area within the United Counties route network which always seemed to a young child anachronistic.

 

EN also seemed left more to their own engineering decisions than most nationalised companies (e.g UAS). Was that because they annexed adjacent operators such as Hicks and City Coaches?

I used to compare this approach to the GWR's Swindonising of companies' rolling stock after the grouping.

dh

[PhilJ W]

I do remember that Eastern National used to have an isolated area within the United Counties route network which always seemed to a young child anachronistic.

 

EN also seemed left more to their own engineering decisions than most nationalised companies (e.g UAS). Was that because they annexed adjacent operators such as Hicks and City Coaches?

I used to compare this approach to the GWR's Swindonising of companies' rolling stock after the grouping.

dh

EN had their own workshops at Prittlewell and Chelmsford and were much better endowed with such than many other Tilling group companies. Chelmsford was always Eastern National but Prittlewell came with Westcliffe-on-Sea. Chelmsford carried on servicing the bus fleet and Prittlewell the coach fleet which was also garaged there. The nationalised bus companies despite their being nationalised were allowed a great deal of freedom at operating level and in choice of rolling stock, not just the Bristol/ECW combination.

[Gwiwer]

I do remember that Eastern National used to have an isolated area within the United Counties route network which always seemed to a young child anachronistic

They became well-known for taking on London Coastal Coaches routes as well. These became the well-known 151 (Wood Green - Canvey), 251 (Wood Green - Southend) and 400 (Kings Cross - Southend limited stop)

 

EN maintained garages in London at Wood Green (just across from the red bus garage of the same name and using the same WN code) and Kings Cross (KX). The 400 was home to some uprated FLF6G Lodekkas painted in "reverse Tilling" cream with green waistband and numbered in the 26xx series. These were replaced by VRTs for its final few years. The 151 and 251 were also limited stop for the considerable sections which parallelled London bus routes namely Wood Green to Harold Park which was the official boundary and all had pick-up and set-down restrictions at the behest of the London authorities. The 151/251 were worked with standard FLFs which, along with their WN garage, were used for the TV series "On The Buses". With falling receipts the 151 was cut back to Romford and was an early conversion to Leyland National operation. The 251 picked up a couple of one-man VRT duties after Kings Cross closed though the 400 continued for a time with the London duties reallocated to WN. A vestige of the 251 was continued after final closure at WN working between Walthamstow and Southend but ultimately this too fell victim to London's favourable fares and was withdrawn west of Romford.

[PhilJ W]

They became well-known for taking on London Coastal Coaches routes as well. These became the well-known 151 (Wood Green - Canvey), 251 (Wood Green - Southend) and 400 (Kings Cross - Southend limited stop)

 

EN maintained garages in London at Wood Green (just across from the red bus garage of the same name and using the same WN code) and Kings Cross (KX). The 400 was home to some uprated FLF6G Lodekkas painted in "reverse Tilling" cream with green waistband and numbered in the 26xx series. These were replaced by VRTs for its final few years. The 151 and 251 were also limited stop for the considerable sections which parallelled London bus routes namely Wood Green to Harold Park which was the official boundary and all had pick-up and set-down restrictions at the behest of the London authorities. The 151/251 were worked with standard FLFs which, along with their WN garage, were used for the TV series "On The Buses". With falling receipts the 151 was cut back to Romford and was an early conversion to Leyland National operation. The 251 picked up a couple of one-man VRT duties after Kings Cross closed though the 400 continued for a time with the London duties reallocated to WN. A vestige of the 251 was continued after final closure at WN working between Walthamstow and Southend but ultimately this too fell victim to London's favourable fares and was withdrawn west of Romford.

My dad was a controller at Kings Cross in the mid 60's. That was after all EN long distance coach services and tours were transfered to Tilling Coaches. The Bristol/ECW RELL coaches of EN only received a new fleetname and fleet number plate. I obtained one of those original fleet number plates at a LOTS sale a few years later, number 408 which much to my surprise was the number chosen by EFE for their replica of the Eastern National RELL coach.

[Rugd1022]

Waterloo Road, SE1, 1977...

 

[Gwiwer]

Waterloo Road, SE1, 1977...

 

 

In the era of unscheduled RTs - the swansong of a reliable type which was drafted in small numbers to garages and routes which hadn't seen them in years. And in a few cases not at all. The 76 was scheduled for RMs out of AR (Tottenham) but as that type was hurried out of service with indecent haste at times they gained a few RTs to maintain the service.

 

Other places unscheduled RTs could be found included AF (Putney) on the 14 and 22

 

As was typical of the time full sets of blinds were unavailable resulting in (here) a missing rear destination and on other vehicles crudely masked Routemaster blinds for any or all locations.

[RANGERS]

I do remember that Eastern National used to have an isolated area within the United Counties route network which always seemed to a young child anachronistic.

 

EN also seemed left more to their own engineering decisions than most nationalised companies (e.g UAS). Was that because they annexed adjacent operators such as Hicks and City Coaches?

I used to compare this approach to the GWR's Swindonising of companies' rolling stock after the grouping.

dh

The Eastern National presence in what became United Counties territory was down to just about all of the network South of Bedford having been originally Eastern National until 1952, when their operations in Beds, Bucks, Hunts and Herts passed to UCOC.

 

UCOC were never railway owned, the constituent parts came together under Tilling ownership. ENOC had originated as the National Omnibus and Transport Co, hence the Luton National name for the LT depot within the Eastern National/ United Counties garage, ownership passed to the LNER and LMS with Tilling subsequently taking a controlling interest before selling all their bus assets to the British Transport Commission in 1948. This was the first time the two companies had been under the same ownership and reorganisation of the BTCs bus ops followed, resulting in the routes distant from ENOCs Essex heartland being transferred to Northampton.

[Coppercap]

Going back to LGOC bus garage codes, these were changed from November 1911 from the old horse bus codes then used to a new system for motor buses, using letters from A to Y (with some omissions), although not all horse bus garages were converted for motor bus use. Soon after, more motor bus garages were quickly built, so two-letter codes were used for those, eg, AV Hounslow (opened in 1913 on the site of the first Hounslow Town District Line station). Later garages were given codes which reflected the geographical area, such as K KINGSTON (K being re-used). Later, many tram depots were given geographical codes on conversion to motor bus garages, as were acquired garages.

 

This is not a list of every LGOC bus garage, but most of the earlier ones:    

 

A - ALBANY STREET (to 1916)

     SUTTON (FROM 1924)

B - BATTERSEA

C - ATHOL STREET

D - DALSTON

E - ACTON (to 1925)

F - FULHAM (FARM LANE) (to 1924)

      PUTNEY BRIDGE (from 1920 - taken over from National Steam Car Co.)

G - FOREST GATE

H - HACKNEY

J - HOLLOWAY

K - KILBURN (to 1924)

      KINGSTON (from 1924)

L - LOUGHTON

M - MORTLAKE

N - NORWOOD

P - OLD KENT ROAD

Q - PUTNEY (FELSHAM ROAD) (to 1913)

      CAMBERWELL (from 1914)

R - FULHAM (NORMAND ROAD) (to 1913)

      HAMMERSMITH (from 1913)

S - SHEPHERDS BUSH

T - LEYTON

U - UPTON PARK

V - TURNHAM GREEN

W - CRICKLEWOOD

X - MIDDLE ROW

Y - CLAY HALL

 

AB - TWICKENHAM

AC - WILLESDEN

AD - PALMERS GREEN

AE - HENDON

AF - PUTNEY (CHELVERTON ROAD)

AH - KINGSTON (to 1914)

        NUNHEAD (from 1920) (taken over from National Steam Car Co.)

AJ - COLINDALE

AK - STREATHAM

AL - MERTON

AM - PLUMSTEAD

AN - CATFORD

AP - SEVEN KINGS

AR - TOTTENHAM

AV - HOUNSLOW

 

BK - BARKING

CF - CHALK FARM

HW - HANWELL

RD - ROMFORD

SP - SIDCUP

WT - WATFORD

[runs as required]

They became well-known for taking on London Coastal Coaches routes as well. These became the well-known 151 (Wood Green - Canvey), 251 (Wood Green - Southend) and 400 (Kings Cross - Southend limited stop)

I never realised LCCoaches operated routes,

I thought it was a jointly funded bus operators' consortium formed to build and run the 1920s Victoria Coach Station.

When I think about it a bit more, they must have been BET Companies, because apart from the routes to the Kent and Sussex coast resorts, coaches for Oxford, South Midland, Midland Red and North Western terminated there also - as did Ribble and Standerwick.

The Scottish SMT coaches and United from the NE all terminated at Kings Cross (a Tilling asset under the supervision of Phil's dad) and a lot more convenient for the tube than Victoria Coach Station.

Birch Brothers parked along the road between K+ and St Pancras, even closer. (very impressive stylish double deckers they looked to a young kid).

 

We used to ride the mighty Leyland Gnu Duple City Coach Co streamliners on the Wood Green-Southend route

My dad was very proud of selling City their oil from SM&BP Bow depot until we moved north to Brum  in 1947

dh

Edited September 20, 2017 by runs as required

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

more convenient for the tube than Victoria Coach Station.

 

Assuming that by "tube" you mean the Underground, Victoria Coach Station could hardly be more convenient. The District/Circle line runs right underneath it.

 

Just a shame they never thought to put in some platforms.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Waterloo Road, SE1, 1977...

 

Waterloo Rd SE1 1977.jpg

As Gwiwer notes, seems really odd to see an RT on the 76. It was one of the first routes, with the 24, to get Atlanteans.

[RANGERS]

Assuming that by "tube" you mean the Underground, Victoria Coach Station could hardly be more convenient. The District/Circle line runs right underneath it.

 

Just a shame they never thought to put in some platforms.

Victoria's days are numbered, partly on account of another rail line running directly below, the site is destined to become a tunnelling access for Crossrail 2 when its formally approved.

[Gwiwer]

As Gwiwer notes, seems really odd to see an RT on the 76. It was one of the first routes, with the 24, to get Atlanteans.

The XA class. Later replaced by Routemasters.   

 

Victoria's days are numbered, partly on account of another rail line running directly below, the site is destined to become a tunnelling access for Crossrail 2 when its formally approved.

So "convenient" in fact that it was felt necessary to provide a dedicated bus link more than once. When the Red Arrow concept was first introduced the 511 shuttled between Victoria Bus Station (right outside the railway station) and the Coach Station. It proved unsuccessful. Why would passengers arriving by rail wish to continue by coach? Few did. In more recent times a minibus shuttle was tried in response to some requests between the Buckingham Palace Road side entrance to the railway station and VCS. Again it was a failure. Even with baggage it was quicker to walk.

[SRman]

As Gwiwer notes, seems really odd to see an RT on the 76. It was one of the first routes, with the 24, to get Atlanteans.

 

Some figures I saw in print a while ago: XA class buses were failing roughly once every 12,000 miles: RTs at the same time were failing once every 72,000 miles - all averages, of course.

Edited September 20, 2017 by SRman

[Joseph_Pestell]

 Why would passengers arriving by rail wish to continue by coach?

Because they were arriving from the South London suburbs probably.

[Rugd1022]

More golden oldies...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bingley hall]

I recently touched base with the person I did this trip with after a gap of some 45 years! From the correspondence we have had to date I am assuming this was Green Rover adventure using Greenline coach routes to escape the Central Area. It was the last day of regular GS operation and we also visited Tring and Amersham on our way to Rickmansworth for the last run.

 

SM453 spent its nine-year active career at London Country's Amersham garage where it was photographed on 29 March 1972.

 

London Country's MB108, seen here outside Amersham garage on 29 March 1972, entered service in January 1969 and was withdrawn in January 1980.

 

XMB15 had been renumbered MBS15 by the time I photographed it at Tring garage on 29 March 1972, looking as though it wasn't seeing a lot of use at the time.

 

The last revenue route for the GS class was on the the 336A from Rickmansworth to Loudwater Village. On 29 March 1972, GS42 of Garston Garage waits to depart on the very last run.

[Gwiwer]

Probably a Golden Rover if you used the Green Line coaches to and from Central London.  Nice little collection there.  The 336A went around some very rural lanes indeed into highly unlikely territory where even in 1972 everyone seemed to own two cars and several horses.  If I remember correctly there were two GSs on the final run as Garston had expected a modest turn-out of last-riders and enthusiasts.  Not only for the last 336A but the last GS in service.  And after the 336A at least one is recorded as having run an impromptu 309A back to Garston Garage with passengers aboard.