Running locos in/ Rolling roads

[sb67]

I'm really getting back in to this modelling lark! Having run some of my stock on my small layout, I was wondering how to improve the performance, I've never run any stock in, only ever having built shunting planks. Does it make a difference?  I'm also thinking of buying a rolling road to do this as I haven't got the space to build even a small circle of track but I'm not sure which one to get. My smallest loco's being an 0-4-0 and the largest a class 45 or a 2-6-0 steam loco.

Steve.

[Izzy]

I will follow any replies with interest as I have always been in a similar position with 4mm & 7mm layouts. A recent foray into N/2mm (where it has been possible to have a circle of track for this purpose), has revealed that some RTR locos do seem to benefit from running in while others run fine straight out of the box and don't/can't really get any better.

 

However, I do have very mixed feelings over whether rolling roads are a good thing or not, mainly because I can't see how they produce the same friction that occurs from running over track. Fine for diesels etc with non-coupled wheels, but gives me questions over steam locos and diesel shunters, not to mention that non-driven wheelsets, especially those that also collect current don't rotate either. Are these aspects problematic?

 

Izzy

[Dunsignalling]

A rolling road gives the ability to watch what's going on with valve gear etc., which is very difficult to see on a layout or test track.

 

It beds in the gears and axles but does very little to the wheels, you only knock the newness off them by running on track, preferably on a continuous run initially to speed up the process.

 

If you only have an end-to-end layout, loco performance gradually drops off because they never really get into a rhythm. An occasional canter of ten minutes each way on a rolling road works wonders. Get into a routine of checking if they need a drop of oil at the same time and you won't forget to do it.

 

I've had one since they were very uncommon imports and paid about twice what they can be got for these days. I don't regret a penny of it.

 

Worth having? Definitely, but perhaps not primarily for the obvious purpose.

 

John

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Since a circle of track -  or better a small oval -  for test purposes can go on a sheet of hardboard and be stored standing vertically, the space limitation is easily overcome. Track with curvature provides an immediate benefit over the rolling road, apart from cheapness, in that it exercises the mechanism in the lateral movements required for operation on anything other than straight plain track. I have never had the slightest difficulty examining a moving mechanism by applying power to the motor directly, so regard the rolling road as a luxury purchase; would rather spend the money on a model or two.

[10000]

I've been using a rolling road for quite some time now. I used to run around a circuit for running in, but found that some for what ever reason could derail. This meant that you had to stay with them for around 2 hours ( 1 hour each direction).

Now I leave them to it and sort out any issues when I start to use them on the layout.

 

Running in does have benefits. As stated it beds down the gearing and can resolve other problems. An example:- Heljan Lion had a distinct side to side wobble while running as new. An hour each way running in fixed that problem.

 

A rollin road is also useful for loosening up older , infrequent used stock that has 'stiffened up'.

[Nile_Griffith]

Wouldn't be without one. Any new loco gets "run in". Couple of other benefits also. I find it a lot easier to check a loco's running on the rolling road before fitting a DCC (or now Bluetooth board) as well as after. But I do find the running in process does make a big difference. It's actually easier to get a close up look at how the driven wheels are running because it's standing still...... Ha Ha Ha. 

 

Also a handy platform for measuring current draw and general fault finding on the motor also (nowt worse than having a loco scoot of down the track at full tilt because you have the power full up and have suddenly discovered that loose wire!!!!!!!). 

[Moggs Eye]

Only having end to end layouts I use a rolling road for running in and testing. I also find it useful for wheel cleaning - set the thing running and then use a little IPA on a cotton bud the clean the wheels while they rotate.

[JJGraphics]

A rolling road is also good for getting the steam chuff timed correctly on steam locos with sound decoders. I find that they are rarely in sync from new and usually require a little tweaking to get the chuffs timed reasonably realistically to the wheel revolutions.

[Stevelewis]

On  the  subject  of  'running  in'  in  the  olden  days  1950s etc!  locos  had  metal  gears  throughout  and  we  were  told  that   running  in  was  essential  to 'bed  in  the  gears'  at  this  time  it  was  common  to  observe  on  the  roads  New  cars  with a  sign  in  the rear  window 'Running  In'  as   new  cars  were only  supposed to  be  run  below  certain  speeds,  to  allow  the  'moving parts'  presumably  the  gears  to  bed  in.

 

So  getting  back  to  today,  most if not  the  vast   majority of  locos  do not  have  all metal  gears  usually  metal  worms  driving  plastic/nylon  gears,  which  means in my knowledge  of  such arrangements  there is  very little bedding  in achievable.

 

Most  reviews  of  locos  these  days frequently  state  that  locos  run well straight  out  of  the  box,  hauling x numbers  of  coaches  up various  inclines  without  problems  and  doing  it  quietly  as well ( unless of  course there  is  sound on  board!!)

This  was  certainly not  the  case in  the  50s/60s  when metal  geared  locos  did benefit  from  running  in,  many of  my  Wrenn locos  were poor perfomers initially but  impoived  over  time.

[Dunsignalling]

On  the  subject  of  'running  in'  in  the  olden  days  1950s etc!  locos  had  metal  gears  throughout  and  we  were  told  that   running  in  was  essential  to 'bed  in  the  gears'  at  this  time  it  was  common  to  observe  on  the  roads  New  cars  with a  sign  in  the rear  window 'Running  In'  as   new  cars  were only  supposed to  be  run  below  certain  speeds,  to  allow  the  'moving parts'  presumably  the  gears  to  bed  in.

 

So  getting  back  to  today,  most if not  the  vast   majority of  locos  do not  have  all metal  gears  usually  metal  worms  driving  plastic/nylon  gears,  which  means in my knowledge  of  such arrangements  there is  very little bedding  in achievable.

 

Most  reviews  of  locos  these  days frequently  state  that  locos  run well straight  out  of  the  box,  hauling x numbers  of  coaches  up various  inclines  without  problems  and  doing  it  quietly  as well ( unless of  course there  is  sound on  board!!)

This  was  certainly not  the  case in  the  50s/60s  when metal  geared  locos  did benefit  from  running  in,  many of  my  Wrenn locos  were poor perfomers initially but  impoived  over  time.

Whether it is running in as once understood, or not, the instructions with most locos recommend an hour or so's running without a load when straight out of the box.

 

Most (even the ones that appear to be perfect from the get go) seem to loosen up a bit after doing it - whether that's down to anything bedding in or just the lubrication distributing itself is anybody's guess but the ones that are so treated do seem to perform better when introduced to "work".

 

Mine get at least an hour on the rolling road and about the same with formations limited to four coaches before gradually working up to full loads. I instinctively think that any machine will last longer if treated reasonably gently for a while when new, even if old-style running-in is no longer necessary. 

 

John

[Gene]

My layout is just a 6ft plank..so I have to use some form of rolling-road for break-in and to really test decoders etc. But I see no need to buy large, expensive units...instead I just use Bachmann EZ-Riders

 

 

 

 

[PhilH]

I was sceptical but bit the bullet on a whim at a show. I wouldn't want to be without it (them?, Bachrus saddles) now, so many uses over and above running in, some of which are outlined in previous posts.

[ian@stenochs]

Rolling roads are fine for setting up valve gear and tweaking pickups or checking decoder settings. However long term running can cause damage to wheel tyres on the sharp edges of the ball races used on some makes of rolling road. The races are usually hardened steel which is not kind to mild steel or cast iron tyres.

 

For conventional steam locos, with coupling rods, rolling roads do not simulate the effect of running on a continuous rail. You need the resistance of the wheel on the rail actually being driven by the coupling rods to really find out any tight spots. My preference is to use a bit of plain track with a buffer stop and let the loco slip.

[Stevelewis]

Whether it is running in as once understood, or not, the instructions with most locos recommend an hour or so's running without a load when straight out of the box.

 

Most (even the ones that appear to be perfect from the get go) seem to loosen up a bit after doing it - whether that's down to anything bedding in or just the lubrication distributing itself is anybody's guess but the ones that are so treated do seem to perform better when introduced to "work".

 

Mine get at least an hour on the rolling road and about the same with formations limited to four coaches before gradually working up to full loads. I instinctively think that any machine will last longer if treated reasonably gently for a while when new, even if old-style running-in is no longer necessary. 

 

John

**This follows  on  from  my  post  #9**

 

This  week  I  have taken  delivery  of  3  Roco H0e  locos:  an 0-8-0TT Engerth, an 0-6-0  Feldbahan  loco &  a 1099 C0-C0 electric  loco,  all New  not S/H

 

These  are  duplicates  of locos  already in  use  on  the  layout,  so  as  a  matter  of  interest  I  compared  the  performance of  the  new locos  against 'old'  examples  which  have  had  extensive  use,  I tested  haulage  capacity on  the  flat  sections  and  also  on a   gradient  and   there  was  very little  difference if  any* in the  results.

 

*The  0-8-0TT  New example  hauled  1  less  bogie  coach up a 1:25 curved  gradient  than  an 'old' one  did!

Edited May 5, 2017 by Stevelewis

[Dunsignalling]

**This follows  on  from  my  post  #9**

 

This  week  I  have taken  delivery  of  3  Roco H0e  locos:  an 0-8-0TT Engerth, an 0-6-0  Feldbahan  loco &  a 1099 C0-C0 electric  loco,  all New  not S/H

 

These  are  duplicates  of locos  already in  use  on  the  layout,  so  as  a  matter  of  interest  I  compared  the  performance of  the  new locos  against 'old'  examples  which  have  had  extensive  use,  I tested  haulage  capacity on  the  flat  sections  and  also  on a   gradient  and   there  was  very little  difference if  any* in the  results.

 

*The  0-8-0TT  New example  hauled  1  less  bogie  coach up a 1:25 curved  gradient  than  an 'old' one  did!

It was intended to.

 

Your findings differ somewhat from my experience with certain of my British OO locos, notably Bachmann 0-6-0s and 2-6-0s whose haulage abilities increased significantly (getting on for 50%) with a few miles on a 30' x12' continuous run layout under their belts.

 

I put that down to the high gloss being taken off the wheels by running on real rails, not smooth rollers.  

 

John

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

Most if not all rtr locos have instructions or user manuals packed with them which recommend running for a period at medium speed without a load.  Whether or not you call this running in (I do), it's purpose is to free up any minor tight spots, distribute the lubrication around the drive train, and bed in the bearings.  It is a minor nuisance for me because I do not posses a rolling road and my layout is a small blt with a total run of 18 feet end to end, so I have to drive the loco back and forth for about half an hour.  Smooth starts and stops are needed during this process; no flicking the switch into reverse!  But I have a stud of all of 5 locos which I do not expect to expand by more than 2 or 3, and if hardly seems worth investing in a rolling road.

 

Haulage is not an issue for me, as my longest trains are 3 coaches or 11 minerals and a van, which all of my (steam outline) locos can handle easily, even brand new shiny wheeled Baccys, but I am fussy about running and require the best slow running and especially the best smooth starting and stopping performance that I can get from them; 3 are Baccy with similar mechanisms but all differ a little in this respect.  I believe that running the locos in as I have has improved their slow running and stopping and starting, and in one case made a radical difference to the motor noise; all 3 run almost silently.

 

Top speed is also an irrelevance to me, and I doubt my trains ever get much above about a scale 25mph, but if you are running expresses around big layouts, FWIW I would have thought that proper running in, which loosens things up a little, will enable the motor to put the maximum amount of it's power down to the rail, and thus increase the absolute top speed as well as haulage.  It's a win win no brainer, running in is A Good Thing.

 

It will, of course, also highlight any tight spots, binding, quartering, fouling of valve gear, or any other issue of that sort, and for this a rolling road is the ideal tool as you can sit still and study the way the model runs rather than running around the layout after it...

 

In my view, running in is purely for the purpose of bedding in mechanical interfaces and distributing lube; as has been said, most locos will perform 'out of the box', but will not perform as well as they could do.  So, yes, Sb67, it makes a difference, and the difference is an improvement in the way your loco runs, so I reckon it is well worth the effort!

 

Welcome back after your break, however long it was.  What sort of performance issues are you having?  Are you using DC or DCC?  What track and what minimum radius of curve?  It may be that your problems are not down to running in issues and advice here can help you sort them out.

[Butler Henderson]

I use an oval of Kato Unitrax set up on the kitchen table for N or the floor for OO - pictured on this page http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33331-kernow-adams-o2/page-40 post 994

Edited May 5, 2017 by Butler Henderson

[sb67]

Thanks Johnster. I've built a couple of non stater layouts in the last 5 years and have slowly built up quite a bit of stock. I'm just building a small 5ft x 1ft shunting layout using small radius points and i've been really impressed by some of the smooth and slow running i've seen at shows. I'd like to get the best out of my locos and I do plan on using DCC on some locos, the layout being wired to enable that. When I ran some stock the other day I noticed some jerkiness in some locos so wondered if running them in might help.

Most of my other layouts have failed because of poor running in the past but now all my frogs are live and use micro switches to change polarity so I hope I'm going about things in the right way.

Steve.

[The Johnster]

Sounds as if you're on the right lines, Steve.  The use of live frogs will help, but poor running may also be the result of locos not being kept clean (wheel treads and pickups) or track not laid level and smooth, and also regularly and scrupulously cleaned.  Very sharp curves may also cause problems as they force axle sideplay to the limits and can take a wheel clear of the pickup; run the loco slowly through all your trackwork in each direction with the body off so you can watch the pickups bearing on the wheels and ensure that contact is maintained.

 

Can't help with DCC, sorry, too much of a Luddite, though I know that it can cause running issues if not set up properly; again, you will be able to get help on this site, which I have found to be able to sort out most of my model railway problems.  Hasn't got me an 18 year old nymphomaniac brewery heiress girlfriend yet, but you never know...

 

Starting with a shunting layout is a good idea, as it can be re-used as a section of a bigger layout should you decide to expand later, while giving you plenty of fun in the meantime.  But it has very limited scope for running in, and you may find a rolling road more useful than me if you do not have access to a friend's or a club layout that you can use.

 

Good luck!

[DCB]

I find a period of running in to be essential. I run chassis in before fitting motors by towing them around the layout, I run in gears by running motors before fitting wheels, If a loco I assemble.  Unfortunately my only test track is the loft layout which is a pain (literally) to access so my thoughts are turning to a bespoke running in circuit.

 

The few new locos I have purchased I have run in for an hour approx usually changing direction every ten minutes or so to ensure it runs round left hand and right hand curves as well as forward and backwards, starting light engine for twenty minutes or so and then pulling a medium load increasing to max load.  I suspect a rolling road is a rich mans equivalent of putting a loco against a buffer stop and letting it spin its wheels, which is an excellent way of getting oval wheels.   

 

After being run for some time some locos traction improves greatly, especially Bachmann 2-8-0s in my experience, I think the tread profile is not optimised for code 100 rails too gentle a curve from flange to tread,  Romford Markits wheels seem to be the correct profile from new.

Some some degrade rapidly, those with traction tyres mainly

 

Somewhere on here a chap built detachable return loops which were a bit like a Banjo shape with the baseboard cut away except under the track and just a single "spoke" through the middle as a handle.  If one applied the same to a circle one could lay a circle of 3rd or 4th radius track on a very light base which although 4ft Diameter would be light and could conceivably be hung on a wall.

 

Edit   It was Steve Copley  and was on the "Corkscrew Lines" Thread. His was a return loop but could very easily be adapted for a circle.  I hope he does not mind my using his picture as an illustration of his brilliant technical and aesthetic creation.   I want one now!

Edited May 6, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[SRman]

At risk of duplicating much of what has already been said, I do believe in running-in locos, even with plastic gears.

Some new models run sweetly straight out of the box, others may exhibit some tightness, or small tight spots at particular points of the wheel revolutions. Some also exhibit slight electrical pickup problems until the wheel backs and contacts have polished themselves a bit with use.

I agree with the comments that the rolling road doesn't simulate the loads and lateral movements of running on a proper circuit of track. However, the rolling road also allows one to leave a locomotive running for a while unsupervised. While running on my layout is normally very reliable, Murphy's Law can still kick in, causing random derailments and/or short circuits - the train can do 100 uneventful circuits while being watched, but come off the track somewhere on the 101st while I have gone to put the kettle on!

Also, my present operational circuit is three-quarters in tunnel, making it difficult to observe new items properly during the running-in process. Once I have the upper level running, I'll be able to utilise that and more effectively watch for any undesirable characteristics in brand new locomotives or units.

Rolling roads are useful for troubleshooting some problems (e.g. valve gear anomalies, tracing squeals, lighting hiccups, and so on), but track tests are better for other problems (bogie swing limitations, pickups at the extremes of wheel/axle lateral travels,, coupling swing limitations, and things like those).

So, summing up: I do believe there is a place for using the rolling roads, but there are also good reasons for having a continuous track run too.

[Roy Langridge]

I was sceptical but bit the bullet on a whim at a show. I wouldn't want to be without it (them?, Bachrus saddles) now, so many uses over and above running in, some of which are outlined in previous posts.

I have two set ups, one of those cheap rolling roads and eight Bachrus saddles. Like Phil I wouldn't be without either, but they are definitely one of those "get what you pay for" things. Bachrus saddles may be expensive, but the are the dog's whatnots.

 

Roy

[Tinker]

Does it make a difference, simple answer not tried on my rolling road but on a small oval roughly a hour each way and the loco is certainly smoother running and speeds up a bit.....

[Roy Langridge]

Does it make a difference, simple answer not tried on my rolling road but on a small oval roughly a hour each way and the loco is certainly smoother running and speeds up a bit.....

Key for me is after running in, can it slow down a bit, not will it speed up. I want realistic slow running, and running in definitely helps with that in my opinion.

 

Roy

[The Johnster]

Starting to get the sense that some people are thinking of running in as like running in a new car, where you are advised not to exceed certain speeds or revs for a certain mileage, then you can open her up and see what she'll do...

 

Running in a model is much more about being able to achieve smooth, slow, controllable running; any of them will run fast out of the box, but are likely to be a bit stiff running slow until the lube has been spread about and bearings, gears, and other moving interfaces have bedded in.  Top speed and haulage are likely to increase once this is done, especially on Baccy wheels which need to wear in a little before they will grip properly, which is a bonus but not the aim of the exercise.  The OP is building a shunting layout and I suspect that haulage and speed are not particularly important to him; good running obviously is, and has been the issue that has most discouraged his previous attempts.  He is trying to get it right this time, and we are unanimously advising him that running in is worth the effort, but IMHO, for his purposes it is important to stress the benefits in slow controllable running on a shunting layout!

 

Plastic gears need running in as much as brass or steel ones did, though the process is simpler and is probably achieved in the first minute of running.  All gears will mesh and run better when the sharpness of new edges has been taken off them, and will last for many years if properly lubed, before eventually succumbing to wear and not meshing properly.