New brand, new model - Rails Limited - LNER Dynamometer car

[teaky]

This brings up an interesting point as to whether we have to "take people's word for it" that their £125 is being spent on an accurate model as the evidence can't be shown because of copyright. So who takes what risk? Does the buyer risk having an inaccurate model or does the seller risk a copyright action. Discuss

At present Rails have not said that copyright is preventing them publishing evidence this has only come into the discussion because mdvle raised it as a possibility.

 

I don't think we should expect Rails to break the law in order to back up their statement but (and apologies for repeating myself here) I do feel it is reasonable to ask for evidence to counter the argument that it should be lined.

 

If Rails choose not to do this then potential purchasers are free to decide whether or not to part with their money based on the evidence available.  We all have our own red lines (apologies to the person I pinched that pun from) when it comes to modelling compromises and are free to make our own decisions based on the information available.  There are people who see so many compromises in a RTR model that kit or scratch building is the only viable solution and there are others who will simply buy something because they like the look of it.  This is a hobby.  We do it for fun.  Both approaches are fine.

[GNR Dave]

The last photo on post 389 clearly shows faux teak and lining. If the lining was a 'trick of the light' the same 'trick' would also be visible on the door vent edges and raised lip around the top of window and inner window frame, which IMHO it does not appear to be. I find Golden Age lining on all their teak stock a little heavy, but that does not mean it did not appear on the prototype. At normal viewing distances I'm sure the black dots of the printing process will be invisible. The large dark patches refered to in previous posts would seem to be a little heavy on a faux teak finish to my eye and give the carriage a too patchy appearance.

 

I'm still getting one though !

 

Does anyone know if the wheels would have had the wooden centres on the early version ? I think they are a nice touch on the Bachmann Thompsons.

[micklner]

This brings up an interesting point as to whether we have to "take people's word for it" that their £125 is being spent on an accurate model as the evidence can't be shown because of copyright. So who takes what risk? Does the buyer risk having an inaccurate model or does the seller risk a copyright action. Discuss

 

Taken from DACS site 

 

https://www.dacs.org.uk/knowledge-base/factsheets/copyright-in-photographs

 

 

Photographs made before 1st June 1957

" These photographs were originally protected for a period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which they were taken (regardless of whether they were published or not).

 

If the photograph was still in copyright as of 1 July 1995 however, the period of copyright was extended to the life of the photographer plus 70 years. If copyright protection had expired before 1 July 1995, there was still the chance to "revive" the photograph. An eligible photograph would then  be protected by the new term, ie the photographer's life plus 70 years. "

 

 

 

Photos from the 1930's ended in 1989 or earlier.

[mckinneyc]

Why is this thread still full of posts about lining? The model is not lined, end of. The guys at Rails were asked as to why and they responded.

 

Do you not feel all this rubbish over what might have been in some modellers' eyes is counter productive to the hobby? If I was a retailer or manufacturer reading post after post of all this I would question why I bother making models at all.

 

I have ordered a model and I cannot wait for it to arrive. Rails and Rapido should be applauded in their efforts.

[stock_2007]

I love how this thread has now descended into arguing copyright law! This forum is a strange place sometimes....

- Alex

You've only just realized that

[teaky]

I love how this thread has now descended into arguing copyright law! This forum is a strange place sometimes....

- Alex

No one is arguing about copyright law.  Stop trying to distract us from arguing about thin lines of paint! 

[Edwardian]

The Dynamometer car is something of an exception, firstly because no one will ever buy a rake of them for obvious reasons and secondly because it has as many parts as a small loco or about twice that of a normal coach. Which would make production twice the price.

 

Some parts could possibly be used on the GNR directors saloon preserved on the Bluebell. Now there is a thought.

 

While a one off might be more expensive, I cannot imagine that any one of a rake of NER general service clerestories would be significantly cheaper to produce than the Dynamometer Car has been

 

And please can we stop referring to the Dyno as a Great Northern vehicle?

 

The family resemblance of a set of such coaches belies the fact that each family member would need to be tooled separately. Each coach side and interior will be different, specific to the arrangement for that coach, number and class of compartments, lavatories, brake and luggage portions etc.  There may be some commonality regarding the ends, but this won't help if you mould them of a piece with the sides.

 

Roofs are not much better.  The numbers and spacings of vents, lamp tops and clerestory lights or vents will be different for each coach.

 

The complex printing of lining will be different for each side of each coach.  Not easy or cheap. Remember that Bachmann announced a train pack with a set of their LMS Period I coaches lined out in pre-1933 livery?  Well, they bottled that and re-released them in plain maroon. 

 

If you're lucky, you'll be dealing with a type where at least bogies and underframes were common across the variants you wish to produce.  That'll be about it, though, I suspect.

 

I think if you expect the style of coach represented by the NER Dynamometer car to come out significantly cheaper just because it's one of a number of variants of the type, well, I am very sorry to say that it is also likely that you reside with cumulous-dwelling cuculidae.

 

So, they'll come.  They will be more costly than previous generation RTR coaches.  Like L'Oreal, however, you'll be worth it.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Edwardian

[micklner]

Both NER and LNER versions would be plain colours and only the NER version was lined out. That would save a few pennies on the LNER version  .

[No Decorum]

DJM are experts at that sort of thing give them a call.  

 

You might very well think that. I couldn’t possibly comment.

[mdvle]

Taken from DACS site 

 

https://www.dacs.org.uk/knowledge-base/factsheets/copyright-in-photographs

 

 

Photographs made before 1st June 1957

" These photographs were originally protected for a period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which they were taken (regardless of whether they were published or not).

 

If the photograph was still in copyright as of 1 July 1995 however, the period of copyright was extended to the life of the photographer plus 70 years. If copyright protection had expired before 1 July 1995, there was still the chance to "revive" the photograph. An eligible photograph would then  be protected by the new term, ie the photographer's life plus 70 years. "

 

Photos from the 1930's ended in 1989 or earlier.

 

Not necessarily.  Read the link you provided and see that it is possible for some pictures to be still covered by copyright - "revived" - if they had copyright covered elsewhere in Europe that meant they hadn't fallen out of copyright.

 

Admittedly unlikely, but assumptions could lead to trouble.

[MikeTrice]

The coach carried lining before the war and no lining after the war. End of story.

Sorry to cast further doubt to your statement but here is the Dynamometer Car during the 1948 locomotive trials. Lined or trick of the light?

 

The only change between pre war and immediately after is the renumbering which impacted a single panel each side. I believe it lost the lining when it was painted into BR style which impacted 3 panels each side.

Edited June 20, 2018 by MikeTrice

[micklner]

Not necessarily.  Read the link you provided and see that it is possible for some pictures to be still covered by copyright - "revived" - if they had copyright covered elsewhere in Europe that meant they hadn't fallen out of copyright.

 

Admittedly unlikely, but assumptions could lead to trouble.

 

Agreed, its very vague presumably a photo taken by a German or wherever these other countries mentioned are a citizen,but even then it still would end in 2018.

 

I believe you can show a photo for research purposes anyway ?. Copyright is more about preventing financial loss to the owner.

[Pteremy]

As a 'disinterested observer' i do find these photos ambiguous, not least because the main coach colour is so dark. If i had not read it was so I would never have guessed that the main colour was 'painted teak'! No-one seems the slightest concerned about that.

 

But I do hope that no-one is put off by the absence of lining, whether that is accurate or not. It must have been pretty subtle and therefore potentially poorly rendered on a small scale model, or not that obvious except in close up. And it is otherwise a lovely model that deserves to be a success.

[MikeTrice]

The only doubt is when the coach changed from NER maroon to teak.

In NER livery the ends are lined as well as the sides. The photo of the Dynamometer Car showing LNER transfers and 'Y' suffix to the number has unlined ends but lined sides and all previous North Eastern lettering and crest removed. The painted date on the solebar is not overly clear in the photo but looks to be 9th June 1924.

[Methuselah]

As a 'disinterested observer' i do find these photos ambiguous, not least because the main coach colour is so dark. If i had not read it was so I would never have guessed that the main colour was 'painted teak'! No-one seems the slightest concerned about that.

 

But I do hope that no-one is put off by the absence of lining, whether that is accurate or not. It must have been pretty subtle and therefore potentially poorly rendered on a small scale model, or not that obvious except in close up. And it is otherwise a lovely model that deserves to be a success.

 

One has to be very careful when drawing any conclusions about colour from any old monochrome images. I know through decades of historical research in other areas, that the old emulsions were infamous for distorting tonality and could - and often did - seriously distort those differences either way. That said - images could often be very sharp - even glass-plate negatives well over one hundred years old. The 'dark' shots of the Dyno' Car do seem to clearly show a 'woodgrain'-effect, so I'm presuming it's the LNER's 'Teak' - no matter how 'dark' if may appear.

 

Since this issue of the lining came-up, I have done some simple research, and the images taken on the day - and easily available on the web - of Mallard's record run, seem to show pretty convincingly, that the Dyno' Car was in fact lined, as do other folks images posted in these forums. Since I've ordered one, in all honesty, I can't say that I'm exactly overjoyed, since this was supposed to have been meticulously researched with the experts at the NRM to justify the significant price-tag. There's no doubt it's a great model - it really is. I'm no expert - and don't profess to be, but I must say that I'm now reluctantly coming to the conclusion that a more conservative approach - that of waiting to see what the serious revues's say after delivery - is the generally wiser purchase policy.  :-( . Lesson learnt I think....I shan't be making that mistake again. No more of these pre-orders for me. I already have a Heljan 4700 and a couple of the Rapido Stirlings on order too.......so I have my fingers crossed...!

 

In the meantime - it'll be interesting to see what further images of the Dyno' Car turn-up to put the matter conclusively to bed. The lining is certainly very fine - and some will say with good justification, that this would be very hard - if not impossible, to reproduce to scale - and it's true - over-scale lining does look awful. All the same, I await a final verdict from the better-informed aficionados with interest.

 

M.

 

Original moving & still images here;-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqmYFotXqDg   See esp' 08:40

[amwells]

Having watched that video, I still remain unconvinced either way

[Colin_McLeod]

Why is this thread still full of posts about lining? The model is not lined, end of. The guys at Rails were asked as to why and they responded.

 

Do you not feel all this rubbish over what might have been in some modellers' eyes is counter productive to the hobby? If I was a retailer or manufacturer reading post after post of all this I would question why I bother making models at all.

 

I have ordered a model and I cannot wait for it to arrive. Rails and Rapido should be applauded in their efforts.

 

Like you I too have ordered a model and cannot wait for it to arrive. I agree that Rails and Rapido should be applauded in their efforts in producing this fabulous model.

 

However I do not agree that the discussion about lining is "rubbish".  If I were buying a cheap "railroad" type coach I would not be worried about slight inaccuracies, but at £125 for a coach described in post No 1 as "1938(Mallard Record Run)" which is actually a specific day in the history of the coach, I expect something so fundamental as to whether or not it was lined to be correct.

 

I will still get my coach as I don't know whether or not it is actually wrong and there is no consensus in this thread. If it is ever established that there was no lining then my model will be correct. If it is ever established that there was lining, then my model will be incorrect. I can live with either.

 

As to why a manufacturer would consider why he bother making models, the answer is  IMO quite simple. He can sell them, despite these discussion, and that translates into a profit.

 

I do like the higher quality models that are available these days, and the internet enables us customers to be kept up to date with progress of the model and to influence that progress, but perhaps it was simpler in days of yore when a new model was produced and it was what it was. If we liked it and could afford it we bought one, and if we didn't we bought it anyway and improved it using modelling skills.  Perhaps someone will take their Rails/Rapido DC and using skilful painting , try to emulate the trick of the light that sometimes looks like lining, and sometimes not.

[Chamby]

If you want your coach lined.... then line it! Your model will be even more exclusive.

 

Given that the debate rages on, it is better on balance that Rails have omitted the lining. It is easier to add lining yourself, than to try and remove it from a finished article.

 

The way Rails have done it gives you the best of both worlds.

[teaky]

If you want your coach lined.... then line it! Your model will be even more exclusive.

 

Given that the debate rages on, it is better on balance that Rails have omitted the lining. It is easier to add lining yourself, than to try and remove it from a finished article.

 

The way Rails have done it gives you the best of both worlds.

Perhaps I need more experience of applying lining, but to me removing or over painting lining seems much easier than applying it.

[JSpencer]

Sorry to cast further doubt to your statement but here is the Dynamometer Car during the 1948 locomotive trials. Lined or trick of the light?

April 1948.jpg

 

The only change between pre war and immediately after is the renumbering which impacted a single panel each side. I believe it lost the lining when it was painted into BR style which impacted 3 panels each side.

 

This seems to be sun light hitting all edges facing upwards to me, so for me it is a trick of the light. If the downward facing edges stuck out, we could say it was lined, but they don't in the picture to my failing eyes.

[Colin_McLeod]

Perhaps I need more experience of applying lining, but to me removing or over painting lining seems much easier than applying it.

If you overpaint it yellow it will be really RARE!.

 

On second thoughts, the DC is not about track maintence and perhaps an appropriate livery had it remained in BR service long enough would have been the BREL red and blue livery.

[Colin_McLeod]

This seems to be sun light hitting all edges facing upwards to me, so for me it is a trick of the light. If the downward facing edges stuck out, we could say it was lined, but they don't in the picture to my failing eyes.

I'm inclined to agree with this interpretation of the photograph referred to. I would also add that the verticals that would also have been lined neither appear lined nor appear to reflect sunlight.

 

Therefore on balance I am happy that my model is correct without lining.

 

Unless someone throws a spanner in the works by producing evidence that the sun was not shining that day! lol.

 

 

Edit to correct typo

Edited June 21, 2018 by Colin_McLeod

[teaky]

For me, the images in post #463 do not convince me either way.

 

The images in post #389 however still indicate the dynamometer car was lined in the thirties.

 

If only Rails would share some of the evidence which makes them so certain the car was unlined.

[gr.king]

One of the very same features I noticed in those images a couple of days ago. The light would have to be falling from all directions to highlight all of those edges, and those visible pale lines are simply too neat-edged and regular in width to be mere reflections off the inevitably slightly uneven surfaces of wooden panels.

[MikeTrice]

Irrespective of livery questions, I have had one of the 1938 models on order from quite early in their development. Are the issues enough to make me cancel my order? No, the vehicle is still a beautiful moulding, far superior than I could do from scratch. I also have a D&S kit tucked away which might now not get built.

 

Will I live with the lack of lining? Certainly for a while but might be tempted to rectify at a later date - depends how brave I am feeling. The danger is making a mistake during the lining process and ruining a £125 model. If the glazing is removable then it should be possible to offer the bodywork some protection with a couple of coats of Klear prior to attempting any lining in Humbrol enamels. How far I go therefore depends on how far the model can be disassembled, I will just have to wait and see it in the flesh. That light roof will probably get toned down which should be relatively easy.