First Group win South West franchise

[Grovenor]

Finally, back to the derailment which impacted on Waterloo; Has it been confirmed, or divulged, that the cause was a signalling fault (wrong side obviously and therefore extremely serious) or human error ?

From today's announcement of an inquiry by the RAIB.

 

The collision occurred because a set of points were misaligned and directed the passenger train away from its intended route. The misalignment was a consequence of a temporary modification to the points control system which also caused the train driver and signaller to receive indications that the points were correctly aligned.

Our investigation will examine:

• the circumstances leading to installation of the temporary control system modification
• the safety measures provided while the temporary modification was in place
• the checking and testing procedures applicable to the modification
• any relevant underlying management factors.

We will get the report in due course, but human error must have played a big part in it.

Regards

[Gwiwer]

And when we do get the final report I hope to see an answer to the question why Panel 1 was not split at Wimbledon as planned into 1 and 1A to permit this work to go ahead without impinging on signals and points on the "live" side.

[phil-b259]

And when we do get the final report I hope to see an answer to the question why Panel 1 was not split at Wimbledon as planned into 1 and 1A to permit this work to go ahead without impinging on signals and points on the "live" side.

 

Simply splitting the panel doesn't split the interlocking!

 

At Three Bridges a new panel was created due to signallers workload when  the ELL Overground extensions happened. What used to be panels 1A and 1B became 1A, 1C and 1B, however this did not translate into any changes in the relay interlockings on the ground which remained unchanged.

 

Now in some places the interlocking (e.g. East Croydon) does have split inputs at the 'Push Button Interface' stage so that a sticky button doesn't lock up he whole layout (to enforce the 'set one route at a time' principle only one single button can be 'seen' to be pressed by the interlocking at any time), but the actual route setting and checking stages remain common to the whole interlocking.

 

Thus I am not surprised that initial plans to split the Waterloo interlocking were abandoned -it would have been incredibly costly and taken a long time to do which would have distracted key signalling resources from other jobs. If the job is being done as part of a wider resignalling (e.g. Gatwick) where the relay interlocking is being replaced then having two separate interlockings can be advantageous as it can prevent everything grinding to a halt should one of them go down.

Edited August 30, 2017 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

As I  predicted, the RMtT are going to start causing misery on SWR over the role of guards

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-in-dispute-with-south-western-railway-over-guards/

[Gwiwer]

A dispute over a threat?  What are they disputing?  Whether or not the threat exists?  

 

Sabre-rattling at this stage I'd suggest.  They certainly have no grounds for balloting on action.

[John M Upton]

Picks up galvanised metal rubbish bin.

Places over head.

Screams.

Places bin back down again.

 

That's better...

[phil-b259]

A dispute over a threat?  What are they disputing?  Whether or not the threat exists?  

 

Sabre-rattling at this stage I'd suggest.  They certainly have no grounds for balloting on action.

 

I believe the official position is the RMT had asked for written guarantees from the new franchise owner that they will continue to comply in ALL respects with the previous agreement between the RMT and Stagecoach that all trains would be operated with a Guard. Just as with a certain Mr Chamberlin in 1939 this included the statement that if the Union had not received said guarantees by a certain date, then an Official despite (as per UK law) would be triggered and a Ballot for industrial action would be carried out.

 

As per 1939 what the RMT are now saying is that the date they set for compliance with their demands has now past - and as such an Official despite has been triggered which will include as a first stage a ballot of members to achieve a mandate for industrial action.

 

Naturally given the way the law stands (Ballots, notice periods and the potential for legal challenges) we probably won't actually see any action taking place till October

[lmsforever]

What a disruptive bunch of people the RMT  seem to be, picking fights with every train company ,are they building up to a national strike it really is a sinister moment in time.I know that many members of this union post on here and I am not tarring everyone with the same brush please understand I am looking at this from a passengers point of view.Change is something that happens but another person on the train is promised in all of the disputes so what is the problem or is this a political event by by Mr Cash it certainly seems to look that way.Perhaps if passengers could sue unions for disruption caused the world might be more equal?

[phil-b259]

What a disruptive bunch of people the RMT  seem to be, picking fights with every train company ,are they building up to a national strike it really is a sinister moment in time.I know that many members of this union post on here and I am not tarring everyone with the same brush please understand I am looking at this from a passengers point of view.Change is something that happens but another person on the train is promised in all of the disputes so what is the problem or is this a political event by by Mr Cash it certainly seems to look that way.Perhaps if passengers could sue unions for disruption caused the world might be more equal?

 

It wasn't for nothing that Mr Cash's predecessor took pride in being lambasted in the press as the head of the 'Awkward / Militant Squad' of trade Unions. While some have suggested Mr Cash is under intense pressure to keep Mr Crows legacy alive it has to be acknowledged that while the late Mr Crows combative style and stubbornness didn't go down well with the public or Government, analysis of the pay deals he and his team secured for their members shows his fighting talk got results and members would be a lot worse off if it wasn't for the Unions  actions.

 

Whether the RMT is right to be opposing DOO in the way it is has of course been debated in here before - with some pretty passionate / heated exchanges on both sides so all I will say is that as technology and social attitudes change, trade Unions also have to evolve with them.

 

As for passengers being able to 'sue' the Unions - nothing would please unscrupulous business owners more as you can be sure they would take full advantage to put unions out of business. Please remember that the RMT does not only represent guards etc - they are also the Union that looks after those who work for the Governments favoured 'Outsourcing specialists' on zero hours, minimum wage, no sick pay, etc contracts cleaning your trains for you at major termini. Moreover it would totally undermine the very valuable role the trade Unions do as regards Health and Safety at work - something even the most right wing of Governments acknowledge has been very benifical over the years.

 

Finally even bodies like the UN and the ECHR congresses that the right for a person to withdraw their labour is a basic Human right - principally for its role on the H&S field. The UK already has some of the strictest rules in the world covering strike action and while their may well be an argument for forced arbitration or some form of 'no striking' rules in certain situations (e.g. Prision officers / Police) seeking to destroy trade unions through financial means (which is what would happen if they could be 'sued' for financial redress) is wrong and immoral.

Edited September 1, 2017 by phil-b259

[PaulRhB]

This week on our area two guards being spat at while challenging non fare paying passengers and several cases of guards calling up to organise sensible connections for people whose journey was already late due to the disruption. The guard also often is the one who first gets to a traumatised driver after an incident.

If you want a qualified member of staff who cares about their passengers and goes the extra mile you have to pay them a decent wage and give them responsibility. A train 'host' paid like gateline staff is less likely to have the skills or motivation to do that, (note I said less likely as there are some excellent ones). If you dumb down the job you don't get the same people applying because of the lower pay.

Unfortunately there are combative people at the top on both sides of many of these disputes who think posturing and bluff will get a better deal.

One of my colleagues told a senior union member he was a disgrace because of his aggressive attitude to members not wanting to be be militant, equally a senior company man came into a work location and was equally combative about a pay deal and pensions and how they would 'break us' , even the local boss was astounded at the way he went on.

Unfortunately bull and bluff seems to be becoming an accepted way to do business and run countries so is it any surprise it brings out the opposite extreme?

I've said before that the staff have twice refused to take punitive action in our area but equally made it clear to the local management that we would stand together to stop them wrecking the Union. Unfortunately on the railway these power games affect all the travelling public too.

Edited August 31, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Joseph_Pestell]

This week on our area two guards being spat at while challenging non fare paying passengers and several cases of guards calling up to organise sensible connections for people whose journey was already late due to the disruption. The guard also often is the one who first gets to a traumatised driver after an incident.

If you want a qualified member of staff who cares about their passengers and goes the extra mile you have to pay them a decent wage and give them responsibility. A train 'host' paid like gateline staff is less likely to have the skills or motivation to do that, (note I said less likely as there are some excellent ones). If you dumb down the job you don't get the same people applying because of the lower pay.

Unfortunately there are combative people at the top on both sides of many of these disputes who think posturing and bluff will get a better deal.

One of my colleagues told a senior union member he was a disgrace because of his aggressive attitude to members not wanting to be be militant, equally a senior company man came into a work location and was equally combative about a pay deal and pensions and how they would 'break us' , even the local boss was astounded at the way he went on.

Unfortunately bull and bluff seems to be becoming an accepted way to do business and run countries so is it any surprise it brings out the opposite extreme?

I've said before that the staff have twice refused to take punitive action in our area but equally made it clear to the local management that we would stand together to stop them wrecking the Union. Unfortunately on the railway these power games affect all the travelling public too.

 

Germany: Unions have good rights in the workplace, including directors on company boards.

 

UK: Successive Governments have sought to limit unions' powers.

 

Which of these two countries has:

1) Been the most successful economically;

2) Has the greater social cohesion;

3) Has the higher living standards;

4) etc.

[jim.snowdon]

Added to which, German unions recognise that maintaining a good relationship with employers is better for both the employers and employees in the long term.

 

Over here, you have the penny-pinching attitudes of the bus operators (the only way to make money in bus transport is by not spending it) combined with what seems to be self-serving attitudes on the part of some of the union leadership.

 

Jim

[Foulounoux]

And as a result global companies take decisions to stop investing in Germany

 

The "rights" that German employees have are now seen as a reason not to invest and in cases to move production to more flexible countries

 

I have heard senior leaders of companies state why would I put a factory in Germany... The myth of German efficiency is well and truly busted based on our experience

 

Colin

[PaulRhB]

On our side we do have good relations with the management generally but it doesn't stop certain people on both sides trying to make a name for themselves. As I say to anyone the Union is best when everyone uses their vote as with any democracy it tends towards moderation.

[Zomboid]

Let's not go over the DOO debate again. Please...

[Southernman46]

Yes let's avoid DOO and all this boring talk of what terminus should have been built where .......... BUT Waterloo and its' throat should never have been built on a set of reverse curves like it was .........

BACK to matters SWT SWR .............. Tomorrow Sorry it's today now & also Monday

South Western Railways Launch at London Waterloo. Featuring 444040 in the new SWR livery.

Sunday 03/09/17

5Z40 STP 21:35 Northam C.S.D. to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs

Northam C.S.D. 2135
Northam Sig. E842 2141-2150
Northam Jn 2151
St Denys 2152
Southampton Airport Parkwy 2155
Eastleigh 2157
Shawford 2200
Winchester 2202
Wallers Ash Loop 2207
Worting Jn 2215
Basingstoke 2219
Fleet 2235
Farnborough (Main) 2241
Woking Jn 2247
Woking 2248-2250
Weybridge 2259
Hampton Court Jn. 2304
Surbiton 2305
New Malden 2307
Wimbledon West Jn 2313
Wimbledon 2314
Wimbledon Park C.S.D. 2315-2315
Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs 2328


Monday 04/09/17

3Z00 10:56 Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to London Waterloo

Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs 1056
Wimbledon Park C.S.D. 1113-1114
Wimbledon Park 1116
East Putney 1120
Point Pleasant Jn 1124
Clapham Junction 1127
West London Jn 1129
Queenstown Rd.(Battersea) 1129
Nine Elms Jn 1130
London Waterloo 1137

Booked for platform 21.

3Z01 12:42 London Waterloo to Northam C.S.D.

London Waterloo 1242
Nine Elms Jn 1248
Queenstown Rd.(Battersea) 1249
Clapham Junction 1251
Barnes 1255
Richmond 1301
Twickenham 1306
Whitton Jn 1308
Feltham Jn 1309
Feltham 1310
Staines 1318
Virginia Water 1328
Addlestone Jn 1339
Byfleet & New Haw 1356
Woking 1402-1404
Woking Jn 1405
Pirbright Jn 1411
Farnborough (Main) 1417
Fleet 1423
Basingstoke 1434
Worting Jn 1438
Wallers Ash Loop 1448-1503
Winchester 1510
Shawford Jn 1512
Eastleigh 1515
St Denys 1522
Northam Depot Recept Line 1525
Northam C.S.D. 1540

Edited September 3, 2017 by Southernman46

[chrisf]

As I  predicted, the RMtT are going to start causing misery on SWR over the role of guards

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-in-dispute-with-south-western-railway-over-guards/

 

Post deleted

 

Chris

Edited September 3, 2017 by chrisf

[jim.snowdon]

As I  predicted, the RMtT are going to start causing misery on SWR over the role of guards

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-in-dispute-with-south-western-railway-over-guards/

It is high time the RMT recognised that whilst their role is to represent their members, it is not to determine how the railway is run.

 

Jim

[Dunsignalling]

It is high time the RMT recognised that whilst their role is to represent their members, it is not to determine how the railway is run.

 

Jim

And in what sense isn't resisting the jobs of their members being abolished or (at best) drastically deskilled with wages reduced accordingly, not part of their remit?

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

And as a result global companies take decisions to stop investing in Germany

 

The "rights" that German employees have are now seen as a reason not to invest and in cases to move production to more flexible countries

 

I have heard senior leaders of companies state why would I put a factory in Germany... The myth of German efficiency is well and truly busted based on our experience

 

Colin

 

 

 

Added to which, German unions recognise that maintaining a good relationship with employers is better for both the employers and employees in the long term.

 

Over here, you have the penny-pinching attitudes of the bus operators (the only way to make money in bus transport is by not spending it) combined with what seems to be self-serving attitudes on the part of some of the union leadership.

 

Jim

 

For flexible, read cheap and containing people so desperate for work that they will put every other aspect of their lives second to an employer who only regards them as a kind of fuel.

 

All of which demonstrates who globalisation really benefits whilst inevitably creating a race to the bottom in terms and conditions for the people who actually do the work.

 

Germany just happens to be the next in the firing line - up to now companies operating there and here have preferred to do away with UK jobs because UK governments make it easier and cheaper to do so.

 

John

 

EDIT: I was trying to quote three posts, but only got two with one of them attributed to the poster of the missing one. Not sure how I did that. Aplologies.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[jim.snowdon]

And in what sense isn't resisting the jobs of their members being abolished or (at best) drastically deskilled with wages reduced accordingly, not part of their remit?

 

John

Who and in what roles an employer chooses to employ people is his business; the conditions under which he employs them and expects them to do those jobs are the union 's interest. If there is no place for passenger guards in the traditional sense, it is not for the unions to insist on retaining that role for the sake of it. If the operators want a person on the train whose job it is to close the doors, that is a different role with its own set of skills. Some roles are simply obsolete.

 

Jim

[Dunsignalling]

Who and in what roles an employer chooses to employ people is his business; the conditions under which he employs them and expects them to do those jobs are the union 's interest. If there is no place for passenger guards in the traditional sense, it is not for the unions to insist on retaining that role for the sake of it. If the operators want a person on the train whose job it is to close the doors, that is a different role with its own set of skills. Some roles are simply obsolete.

 

Jim

So. "My way or the highway, then"..........

Edited September 3, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[jim.snowdon]

Perhaps they union should be insisting on the retention of shunters at stations where trains couple and divide, even though there are no longer any couplings or jumpers to attend to? The railway is changing and there is no point in hankering after a past and trying to keep obsolete roles for the sake of it.

 

Beyond that, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

All together now -

 

'Here we are again,

as (un)happy as we can be ...  ...'

 

Simples I think -

1. DafT keep your ignorant meddling out of operational safety matters.

2. RMT please grow up and behave responsibly instead of spouting as much rubbish as DafT while your members carry the can from the public

3. Someone please get on and run and manage the railway in an adult manner.

[jjb1970]

All together now -

 

'Here we are again,

as (un)happy as we can be ...  ...'

 

Simples I think -

1. DafT keep your ignorant meddling out of operational safety matters.

2. RMT please grow up and behave responsibly instead of spouting as much rubbish as DafT while your members carry the can from the public

3. Someone please get on and run and manage the railway in an adult manner.

What he said. Is it really too much to ask that DafT leave operational and safety matters to people that know what they're talking about and for the railways to be allowed to get on with things?