Wagon colours 1938?

[webbcompound]

I'm trying to work out wagon colours at nationalisation using the Railcolour range of paints. Can anyone point me at correct information?

 

I know the SNCF colour was referred to as "Rouille" (rust) but the range has dark, middle and light versions of this brown rust colour. Which one is more likely for the newly painted SNCF stock?  The dark one, with the others as later fading?

 

Nord is referred to by two paints: "Gris claire" (light grey) and "Gris cendre" (charcoal). Different periods, or different wagon types?

 

Etat is referred to by one paint "Rouge Sideros" (iron carbonate red) but I have heard people saying they had dark grey. Ouest, which was taken over by Etat in 1908 is referred to by the charcoal colour paint but it seems unlikely that their wagons would not be repainted in thirty years.

 

PLM is referred to by several paints: light grey, burgundy red and middle grey. The burgundy is listed as 1st PLM and the middle grey is listed as "after 1900", so what about the light grey?

 

PO is referred to by a single paint, Van Dycke brown, so I'm asssuming this is it. Since Etat took over their Brittany lines in 1934 I'm guessing that there could be wagons this colour rebranded as Etat.

 

Does this sound plausible?

[Andy Hayter]

Somehere I have a copy of an article that gave closest matches for the pre-nationalisation companies to the then available paints (probably dated around 1980 but cold give some clues.

I will try and root it out and report back.

 

In the mean time a few comments - many it must be said based on models rather than the real thing although there are a few examples at Mulhouse.

 

The first comment to make is that wagons rarely remained in their pristine colours for long.  The sun bleached colours quickly in summer while the dirt and detritus would add a dark haze over everything.  Colour photos of pre-war stock are very rare and their own colour stability is sometimes questionable.

 

Railcolour does seem to provide close/exact matches for virgin stock and perhaps your best starting point is AMF97's own page which has colour swatches as well as descriptions - eg. P423 Gris Moyen PLM.  They don't have a full range however. 

 

PLM colours - the brown is not IMHO the same as first class "burgundy".  This is bourn out by the colour of my Trains Rousseau (pre-painted kit) 1918 OCEM van; the railcolour PLM wagon brown and the example of a primeurs wagons held in York NRM and also in Mulhouse (but of course they may not have restored the wagons with the right shade of brown).  I strongly doubt that any wagon in the light grey would have survived much beyond the 1920s.

 

 

SNCF brown was a dark rust red/brown rather than the more yellowy colours of some of the lighter shades. 

 

Although there was an exchange of routes between the Etat and the PO, I am not aware of any stock exchanges accompanying this.

 

To add to the list:

Midi - light grey - which I think continued after the fusion with the PO.

Est - charcoal grey

 

 

 

Some time ago I asked about the degree of wagon exchange in France and got an answer from P Miguel (SNCF Society and Rails d'Autrefois).  Basically there seems to have been relatively little exchange of wagons between the pre-nationalisation companies in day to day operation.  Pierre had data for the Nord and suggested that 15% foreign wagons would be about the limit*.   I doubt that this would have changed much immediately after nationalisation.  So basically most of your wagon stock should come from the pre-nationalisation  company where your layout is based. 

 

* The difference between France and the UK being that in France for many long distance freight trips, high capacity barges were preferred for all but perishable goods. 

[Northroader]

I'm taking it that "French" was missed out of your thread title? On that basis have you done a trawl on the French version of RMweb, probably one site for starts is here: http://forums.e-train.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28066

What bit I know is as follows, which is shaky, even without my poor knowledge of French. Greys are the safest place to start, Nord had a light grey, Gris cendre, ash grey, very akin to MR / LMS wagon grey, and probably subject to darkening as it aged. PLM had a medium grey shade say like our leadgrey shades, petit Vitesse, Gris Moyen. However, as the regime accelere wagons with long wheelbase and airbrakes were introduced, these had Brun sideros, which I take to be equivalent to what we call bauxite, and these two schemes ran together. MIDI had dark grey. The AL had grey up to the 30s, then brown, although quite what shades?? The EST had something helpfully called Brun no3 or 4 for marchandises, and vert no 8 for messageries, although I think they adopted black around the 30s. The models I've seen for the PO are all a medium brown shade, with a slight orange tint. The ETAT had sideros (bauxite?) They took over the OUEST early 1900s, so doubtful any lasted up to nationalisation. My guess is the OUEST used brown, probably dark (this is what the reseau Breton, close to OUEST methods, used.) The SNCF started life with dark brown, very similar to SR wagon umber, and just a guess that this same brown is a carryover from EST and OUEST browns???? Post WW2 at some time the dark brown was replaced by bauxite. Sorry if some of this proves to be off the mark, some of it is guesswork.

Just sticking a link to the railcolour for other visitors to this thread:https://www.amf87.fr/prestashop/32-peintures-alkydes-application-pinceau

[webbcompound]

 

Some time ago I asked about the degree of wagon exchange in France and got an answer from P Miguel (SNCF Society and Rails d'Autrefois).  Basically there seems to have been relatively little exchange of wagons between the pre-nationalisation companies in day to day operation.  Pierre had data for the Nord and suggested that 15% foreign wagons would be about the limit*.   I doubt that this would have changed much immediately after nationalisation.  So basically most of your wagon stock should come from the pre-nationalisation  company where your layout is based. 

 

 

 

I'm looking at a very specific time slot, between 25th May, and 7th June 1940, south of the Seine near Rouen, when British Army railway engineer units 150 and 161 RCC were assisting in the deployment of 1st Armoured Division in front of the German advance towards the west. The WD motive power will be an ex LMS Jinty, an ex LMS English Electric/Hawthorne Leslie DE, and an ex GWR Dean Goods. 

 

Technically this is (I think) on the boundary of Etat territory, but the nature of troop and rail movements means that a significant amount of Nord rolling stock was in use. Photographs indicate about half the rolling stock is in SNCF livery, but the rest is in pre-grouping liveries, and several images show PLM wagons in use. In addition there are references to Ferry wagons being used. These may well be the standard Nord KKsuw built to "gabarit Anglais" (British loading guage), but I'm also using the excuse to have an example of each of the two British SR types (an open and a van). Unsurprisingly a lot of material appears to be being carried on the WD and USA bogie flats taken over by French companies after the Great War. This isn't a large project, being essentially a shunting operation, so the aim is to have as plausible a "one of each" roster as possible.

[Northroader]

The other link I can give is from the cercle du zero, the French equivalent of our guage o guild. This is for PLM wagons, but some of the others get a mention, and I feel is a bit more definite. http://cercleduzeropnpc.free.fr/wagons/couleur/plm.html

Looking at the Railcolour site again, I think that my interpretation of sideros as bauxite is wrong, the shade they show is much closer to what we know as red oxide, favoured for p.o. wagons over here.(Phoenix 980)

I don't think that you need ration your wagons to the local system, as a national emergency was on, and whatever was available would be used, meaning if you've got any French systems wagon handy, use it.

In this connection, the French systems had plenty of German reparations wagons post WW1, which you might find easier to lay your hands on, back to the cercle du zero:http://cercleduzeropnpc.free.fr/wagons/armistice/tombereau.html

[webbcompound]

In this connection, the French systems had plenty of German reparations wagons post WW1, which you might find easier to lay your hands on,

 

Thanks for the colour links. Although I havn't explained this will be a P4 layout. Locos will be easy, but  I doubt I can lay my hands on any wagons. They will all have to be scratchbuilt!

[webbcompound]

I'm taking it that "French" was missed out of your thread title? On that basis have you done a trawl on the French version of RMweb, probably one site for starts is here: http://forums.e-train.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28066

 

thanks for this link. I had only located  "wagons.passion" so far

[Andy Hayter]

Ah well 1940, compared with the title which says 1938, provides a very different perspective.  All railways under military control since September 1939 and wagons pressed into service based on availability - and not necessarily returned to their parent region. 

 

So yes you will get a much greater mix of wagons.

 

https://www.amf87.fr/prestashop/7-peintures-railcolorrail-spray

 

This is a good starting point to get the right colours - in case you had not found it before.  When you go into the individual paint types (air brush, brush and rattle can) you will find colour swatches for each and a description (sometimes) for each colour and where it was used.  Where the site fails is that that description is often truncated and to get a full picture you have to open the full description for the colour in question. 

For example:

https://www.amf87.fr/prestashop/39-bruns-rouges

P109 Brun rouge sideros  wagons.....

 

which only on opening shows this is the colour for PLM and Etat wagons.

 

It makes finding the right colour tiresome and in some case extensive ploughing through the site reveals that the colour you want is not there.

[webbcompound]

Ah well 1940, compared with the title which says 1938, provides a very different perspective.  All railways under military control since September 1939 and wagons pressed into service based on availability - and not necessarily returned to their parent region. 

Yes. I didn't put 1940 as it was the pre SNCF colours I was after and I wanted to avoid lots of advice on SNCF colours!

I had found the RailColor range, but hadn't worked my way through to the rattle cans.

All advice so far excellent, and gratefully received!