Little Muddle

[KNP]

Martin

 

 

Kevin - what is the wooden screen-like structure against the siding that lies between Misty and the GWR wagon being loaded from the van near the buffer stop? I thought they may be coal bins but I am not sure, looks like the lower sections have roofs over some kind of bunker or container...?

 

They are indeed coal bins, can't remember where I got the idea from but I did see a picture somewhere or other of this style.

The concrete lump next to them was for a set of coal scales but never found any I liked so it has remained empty.

I have searched through the 1600 plus pictures I now have and this one area that is very short of them looking from the back of the layout outwards.

This is the best I can find..

 

[Martin S-C]

Thank you. There's been a few discussions on the Realistic Railway Modelling FaceBook group recently about how accurate we modellers are in placing coal bins hard up against a siding. One fellow denies it ever happened, claiming bins were placed opposite a siding or at the end of the yard and wagons were unloaded into sacks by hand or onto carts/lorries. There are multiple photos however of real wayside stations where coal bins and coal stacks are placed right alongside sidings but whether wagons were ever unloaded directly into them by dropping the side door over their backs (as yours are shaped to allow) so the coal could be directly shovelled out is up for discussion. I personally think it did happen due to the obvious simplicity of the process and why would a coal merchant double handle a load (wagon to cart and then cart to coal bin)?

 

Demurrage charges would tend to encourage coal mechants to get the wagon unloaded as expeditiously as possible as well which would argue using it as a coal bunker to fill sacks from.

Its a fascinating subject and amazing that there appears so little written or photographed about it prior to WWII, and with the passing years none who now have personal recollection of the process.

I'd be very interested to hear others views on the subject. I know you, Kevin, are very keen on accuracy and if you can find the source of your coal bunker model I'd love to know more.

 

I'd also like to put in a request for more photos of the Little Muddle goods yard and terminus.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Martin S-C

[The Johnster]

I think practice varied at different yards; the coal yards I remember in Cardiff had the bins up against the siding with the back wall to the wagons as Kevin has here, but you could see wagons being unloaded into sacks, on to the ground, or directly into sacks on the back of the merchant's flatbed.  I have certainly seen photos of locations where the bins were away from the track but 'facing' it.  

 

Best to model from prototype when you can, but for an imaginary prototype one may have more scope to model one method or the other, or perhaps both.  It would be wrong to assume that the way you saw it done in your local yard when you were an anklebiter was the same everywhere!  I have seen the very naughty practice of using the wagon door as an unloading platform, propped up by a handy piece of timber; this was very dangerous and foolhardy, but some coal merchant's staff seemed not to care.

 

If, like me, you model the South Wales valleys, you don't have to worry; there were no coal yards and no merchants as everybody got theirs from the landsale at the colliery; I assume that this was the situation in other mining areas as well.  Demurrage dissuaded the merchants from keeping coal in the wagons, which were always in short supply at the pits because the mine owners, and later the NCB, were not averse to using wagons as free stockpile space, which resulted in collieries full of loaded wagons screaming for empties to continue working; if there was no empty wagons to put the coal in to when you'd lifted it, work at the faces stopped fairly quickly!

[Martin S-C]

I am modelling a fictional railway but its location is near the Forest of Dean which was a significant coal mining region. I will check out my library of Wild Swan and Lightmoor Press titles again and see how common (or uncommon) coal merchants were in the yards of local stations of that area.

And generally, yes, it was done every which way you can imagine over the course of a wide geography and timespan, I am sure.

If anybody does have a photo of a coal wagon being unloaded direct into a coal bin via the door rested on the bin's back wall I'd be very very pleased to see it. I've searched long and hard with no success so far.

[BWsTrains]

Hi Kev,

 

with RMWeb locked down in maintenance mode I emailed you on this question but now all is working again, can you let me know which plants are the ones with yellow flowers here

 

 

Regards,

 

Colin

Edited November 21, 2018 by BWsTrains

[KNP]

Hi Kev,

 

with RMWeb locked down in maintenance mode I emailed you on this question but now all is working again, can you let me know which plants are the ones with yellow flowers here

 

Unknown LM.jpg

 

Regards,

 

Colin

 

Colin

 

Just seen the e-mail this morning but now it's on here I will use this medium.

They where my interpretation of a British wild flower called Lady's Bedstraw and a passing resemblance to Common Toadflax.

The Common Ragwort was another one that the low level plants could represent.

I am guilty of just getting an idea, running with it and using colours and shapes to get the concept I was after...

 

I have a book on British wild flowers but I have 'filed it' in a safe and secure place - the only problem is that it is so safe and secure I can't find it at the moment!!!!!

[BWsTrains]

Thx Kev,

 

That's not a wildflower I've come across before (hence my question) and I used to collect / press them as a hobby when young. Something coming from a grammar school Biology project I think.

They do look good in your setting.

 

I'm still working on getting modeled stands of Rose Bay Willow Herb for bank settings such as yours, that is widespread on Railway embankments

 

Colin

Edited November 22, 2018 by BWsTrains

[Harlequin]

Regarding coal merchants (as opposed to loco coal): I was told that it was unusual for GWR goods yards to have fixed coal "staithes". It's possibly a meme that we modellers are incorrectly propagating from one model to another (like the word "staithe").

 

I believe that the normal practice was to unload from wagons directly onto road vehicles of one kind or another.

 

A quick survey of station plans shows that a "Coal office" (which I assume to be an independent merchant's office) and a Weighbridge and it's associated office were very common features in GWR goods yards.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Harlequin

[Martin S-C]

I'm still working on getting modeled stands of Rose Bay Willow Herb for bank settings such as yours, that is widespread on Railway embankments

 

Colin

Colin

 

If you do find a method for showing rosebay willow herb in 4mm, please let us know. It was a very common plant in the wilder grasses along railway line fencing and in the corners of firelds and along roadside hedges and I am interested in trying to model it as well.

 

It struck me that Kevin's tall yellow blooms could pass for foxgloves as well.

[KNP]

Still quiet down on the farm, perhaps they are discussing politics which is why they have been there a while!

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by KNP

[Martin S-C]

I was told that it was unusual for GWR goods yards to have fixed coal "staithes". It's possibly a meme that we modellers are incorrectly propagating from one model to another (like the word "staithe").

There's no doubt that coal bins were a common feature of many railway yards but the practice would vary between railway companies, regions and routes. Check your prototype photos and plans is always the correct answer.

 

I have about a dozen photos of goods yards showing coal bins and of course their placement varies, but placing them directly alongside sidings was definitely a thing. The attached picture of Wadhurst is the best evidence of wagons being unloaded direct over the back of coal bins I've found. You can see dropped lumps of coal on the track next to the bins.

 

[Harlequin]

It was definitely a thing - just not so much a GWR thing, AFAIK.

 

Having said that, of course there's a prototype for everything and Kevin's staithes/bins are so beautifully modelled that they look entirely right in context.

[vulcanbomber]

Still quiet down on the farm, perhaps they are discussing politics which is why they have been there a while!

 

1644.jpg

 

1645.jpg

Have we jumped into George Orwell's Animal Farm  now? With the pigs discussing politics

[KNP]

After the many comments and then a request for some pictures I have persuaded Ken to sort something out.

So using the greyboard as a backing here is an area of the layout that has had few pictures taken of it.

 

 

 

 

 

Ken does apologies for the slight darkness in the pictures but he forgot to change the ISO from Auto to 400.....it's great when you have someone to blame.

Edited November 22, 2018 by KNP

[westerner]

I'm enjoying seeing different parts of the Little Muddle Branch, I have noticed that a strong onshore breeze must be holding Misty in position still.

[Martin S-C]

I do like your "half a corrugated goods shed" Kevin. Unusual to say the least.

[Stubby47]

I'm enjoying seeing different parts of the Little Muddle Branch, I have noticed that a strong onshore breeze must be holding Misty in position still.

The tide is out so she's sitting on the mud.

[KNP]

Just to point out that the greyboard was not only to block out the rest of the room but also to ensure Misty did not drift out to sea...….

[Limpley Stoker]

Your horses look so natural in your last frame- the hide texture and manes are just right and the reins really delicate. The illusion is complete!

[BWsTrains]

Regarding coal merchants (as opposed to loco coal): I was told that it was unusual for GWR goods yards to have fixed coal "staithes". It's possibly a meme that we modellers are incorrectly propagating from one model to another (like the word "staithe").

 

I believe that the normal practice was to unload from wagons directly onto road vehicles of one kind or another.

 

A quick survey of station plans shows that a "Coal office" (which I assume to be an independent merchant's office) and a Weighbridge and it's associated office were very common features in GWR goods yards.

that's a shame as I planned to build some "staithes" when I get to the Goods area. However, Scalescenes have an attractive and free Coal Office that I've downloaded (R024) so will make do with that.

 

Colin

Edited November 23, 2018 by BWsTrains

[Limpley Stoker]

I hadn’t noticed before, but from the new viewing angle the roof of the pigsty is really convincing. Could you outline how you managed to achieve it without tiles lifting or visible glue marks?

[KNP]

I hadn’t noticed before, but from the new viewing angle the roof of the pigsty is really convincing. Could you outline how you managed to achieve it without tiles lifting or visible glue marks?

 

Basically all my tiled roofs are constructed on the work bench using a thin card as the base, I find it easier to cut out a template and then fit the tiles whilst the roof is laying flat.

 

The Nov '17 issue of the BRM magazine showed the construction of Little Muddle signal box detailing how I make the roofs, but for those of you that hadn't seen it here are a few pictures as a guide.

 

 

 

 

 

In the case of the pig sty the process was amended slightly

 

Odd tiles were distressed, removed and trimmed to make it look like an old roof prior to fixing.

 

When the glue had dried there is still some pliability in the construction which allows you to carefully bend and distort as required.

 

To assist I fitted cross walls to the pig sty that acted as a firm base to further bend the tiles over to form the sag.

 

The roof panel with tiles was fitted and left to dry, once happy it was dry I pushed down between the cross walls to further sag and used some super glue to hold this additional sag in position. To ensure it stayed in place, on the underside I glued some card spacers strengthening the roof.

 

The ridge tiles also assists in holding everything in place and are individual sections cut from thin card.

 

 

With regard to not getting any glue marks - I use a paint brush to apply the glue as it is easier to direct where the glue actually goes, plus I always apply at least two coats of UV matt varnish on completion that not only protects but also hides any 'shiny' bits like glue...

[The Johnster]

that's a shame as I planned to build some "staithes" when I get to the Goods area. However, Scalescenes have an attractive and free Coal Office that I've downloaded (R024) so will make do with that.

 

Colin

 

I've always used the term 'staithes' as a modeller and as a railwayman, whether it is correct or not, and never had any trouble being understood, but 'bins' is pretty self explanatory and just as good a term.  It may depend on area, but they obviously mean the same thing.  My memory of the reality is that the merchant's liked to bag the coal and ideally load it on to the lorry directly from the railway wagon, as unloading into a staithe/bin is double handling and the work is hard enough already, but of course sometimes it wasn't possible and the staithe/bin was used as a storage area that kept your coal separate from the merchant next door's; several different merchants might well be working from the same yard and possibly even the same wagon.

 

They do this much better 'oop north' with drops; the wagon can be unloaded by gravity and returned to traffic quickly, a much more efficient system.  It had it's drawbacks, of course, in that either a raised siding had to be provided or a pit dug for the drops which would need to be drained.

[spikey]

My memory of the reality is that the merchant's liked to bag the coal and ideally load it on to the lorry directly from the railway wagon ...

That's how I remember it too, and in fact that's how they're doing it the couple of YouTube videos that I linked to in a post a few months back, one of which is ...

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by spikey

[KNP]

Following on from post 3214 what it looks like without the grey board as a backing sheet.

 

 

This view could look quite good if I lowered the camera to get rid of the profile boards.

For those of you who are interested working space is at a premium at Little Muddle so I have devised a pullout work bench that is based on a computer keyboard top.

It slides under the station at Encombe Town when not in use - been a very useful addition.