RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2017 Hi Guys.....I wondered whether you kind guys on here could assist me with advice on wiring up this layout...... The points are all insulfrog peco 100.....will be manually operated and the power routed through the point blades.....it is intended to use a Gaugemaster dual knob model D controller...... The track plan here is terrible I admit, not to scale but does show the layout of the points and track between as it laid down on the boards and fits in neatly..... I have made an attempt....whether correctly or not to mark the continuous feed, but I would like info on where the main feeds should be placed and any isolated joiners situated? I do have one or two kind folks looking over it too...but anything that anyone can highlight would be greatly appreciated indeed.....Thanks in advance...Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesmond Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Hi Bob, A couple of questions: By "continuous feed" do you mean a common return? Is this the red line on the drawing? I'll get the thinking head on in the meantime. Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 14, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2017 Hi Bob, A couple of questions: By "continuous feed" do you mean a common return? Is this the red line on the drawing? I'll get the thinking head on in the meantime. Les Hi Les..... Thanks for the kind reply....I think I do yes, I am coming back to modelling after 40 years, when I was a sprog I was a landscaping bod on the family layout, and I have no experience of wiring up a DC layout, so I understand that this continuous feed will need to flow through one side, but I have no idea of which way to accomplish this.....I am contemplating isolating sections and use switches and I am prepared to wire this up however it is required and for however long it takes..... I'd like to do this step by step, perhaps starting at the station buffer stops, wiring, installing sections and isolation joiners then testing, testing and testing the sections to see everything indeed moves and to see it all works in stages rather than wiring everything, then finding it all grinds to a halt and having to find the problem in a maze of wiring....starting at the station and if successful would allow wiring and modelling to progress hand in hand possibly...? So any advice is much appreciated....a few basic images Thanks Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesmond Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Bob, Thanks for the information and the pictures. The information here: http://rail.felgall.com/crw.htm will help with the principles, and your Gaugemaster D has seperate transformers so is suitable for a common return system (this will save you a lot of wire!). I'm not sure that your slips will have dead frogs, and may need to be electrically isolated from the rest of the track via insulating fishplates and be carefully switched. Thats down the road a bit, though. Definitely a methodical, colour coded and steady approach will pay dividends with this one. Do you have a multimeter? Is there to be a main control panel, or a couple of smaller ones at strategic locations? Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 When I started wiring my layout I put in insulating joiners wherever I thought I might possibly need a break, with droppers from every section. When I actually wired the sections I often connected say 2 or 3 of these together to one switch. If I decide later I need smaller sections I can simply break those connections under the baseboard and wire them up. I don't have to make any changes to the track. Making breaks or putting insulating joiners in laid and ballasted track is not easy. I too was a 'returnee' and deciding where I needed breaks was one of the hardest tasks. Some are obvious, but some you only find out you need when you start 'playing trains'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesmond Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Couldn't agree more, Cliff. I'm in the middle of a Gn15 micro layout, and more or less have every length of track switched. Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Wiring for DC isnt difficult. It can just be tedious. Always remember each piece of track should have a feed, easier to color code the far and near rail feeds. A bus wire can bring the current around the layout so you dont have to worry about all wires coming to one spot. Insulated sections can be done by switching only one rail in the section. All switches with live frogs require insulated joiners at every frog rail. No exceptions. Dead frog points are a bit archaic at this point but it seems youve already bought a lot of them. Just work slowly and methodically. You can do the dropper wires to the track first and sort it all out under the baseboard with the bus wires. (Which color coding helps) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 15, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2017 Cheers Guys....I do so much appreciate the advice here and I will digest it, read it and re-read it many times, and as the say I am a bit 'solid north of the neck' until the penny drops and I get what is going on..... Can I ask as I am using isolfrogs all the way, do the single and double slips have to be wired up to allow power through them in some way? I am going to post some thoughts later this evening on the way I hope to proceed with wiring up this layout, I am prepared to undertake it bit by bit for as long as it takes as long as it's the correct way and loco's move through each section completed..... Regards as always (speak later) Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 15, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2017 Wiring for DC isnt difficult. It can just be tedious. Always remember each piece of track should have a feed, easier to color code the far and near rail feeds. A bus wire can bring the current around the layout so you dont have to worry about all wires coming to one spot. Insulated sections can be done by switching only one rail in the section. All switches with live frogs require insulated joiners at every frog rail. No exceptions. Dead frog points are a bit archaic at this point but it seems youve already bought a lot of them. Just work slowly and methodically. You can do the dropper wires to the track first and sort it all out under the baseboard with the bus wires. (Which color coding helps) Hi... thanks for the advice.....after a gap of 40 years....and then only being let loose on the scenery, I am a bit worried, nee scared of getting started, so any jottings or scribbles on my plan would be appreciated....... Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 15, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi, As a starting and 'test' point of view...... A bit of basic tuition required here....is my theory correct here....I would like to know before I either blow myself up or there's a blue flash and no more 'Bobby Towers'..... I am planning to feed in power from a dual knob Guagemaster model D controller at 'x' marks the spot on my diagram, within the + feed there's an isolating plastic rail joint (this to allow a loco to come up to buffer stop, halt be uncoupled, the power then cut off via a switch, another loco to couple up to the coaching stock and depart) the 'dead section fed by a switch in the + feed.... or would it be best to feed in at x1 and am I correct in assuming that the switch (or break in feed) will be in the + wire Comments please guys.... Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 15, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Me again... Am I correct with this simple idea? If the current is flowing through both rails... and I place a plastic isolating joiner in the + feed, the feed will obviously be cut off----- is I wire over, with a switch situated in between to re-establish the or cut the current his will be okay...it will halt a loco and isolate it when the switch is thrown...? Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesmond Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Bob, You will need a lot more than one feed, especially if you are using a dual controller. If you want to drive two locomotives at once, you will need section switching to link the various track sections to one or other of the controllers, but never one section to both at the same time. This can be done by physical switches on a panel or by relays controlled by switches. Personally (and as Spitfire rightly points out) I'd have droppers (a short wire soldered to the bottom of the rail and fed down through a small hole in the baseboard) from every piece of track down through the baseboard. Experience has shown that relying on fishplates to carry power results in bad connections, current drop and all sorts of woe. Once you have installed and ballasted the track its a right b****r to re-do the wiring, The droppers can be connected to a bus (a bus is a heavier cable extending round the layout carrying power to the droppers - your red line when made into a cable will become a bus) if you want power to the track sections all the time (for a mainline or a long run with no obvious stops). One part of the bus will be the common return, which is continuous and not switched, the other part will need to have the various track sections switched on and off and between controllers otherwise all parts of the layout will be powered all the time and you will really only be able to use one locomotive. To wire slips (which I've never done) have a look about half way down this page: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical%20page%202.html I've not had time yet to study your plan in any detail, but will do so in the next day or two. Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesmond Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Me again... Am I correct with this simple idea? 101_1307 (800x560) (3).jpg If the current is flowing through both rails... and I place a plastic isolating joiner in the feed, wire over with a switch in between, this will be okay...halt a loco and isolate it when the switch is thrown...? Regards Bob Hi Bob, that's it alright. I'd put the switch in the right hand rail, as discussed here: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html The location of the switch for the isolating section can either be beside it on a small panel, or on your mail panel (more wire / wiring) or you can switch it using a relay near it (potentially only one wire back to the panel if you arrange it properly to begin with). I hope this helps and you aren't getting lost - please let me know if you are, as its not my intention to baffle! Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 15, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Bob, that's it alright. I'd put the switch in the right hand rail, as discussed here: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html The location of the switch for the isolating section can either be beside it on a small panel, or on your mail panel (more wire / wiring) or you can switch it using a relay near it (potentially only one wire back to the panel if you arrange it properly to begin with). I hope this helps and you aren't getting lost - please let me know if you are, as its not my intention to baffle! Les Hi.... Thanks Les.....I am up for any advice, and learn as I go along....as many have said I need to take this step by step....If I intend to feed in through the first throat point, am I then correct that this should make the right hand rail (where I have marked in red earlier), the movement of the loco will be forwards (down direction in my plan) towards the buffer stop end of the station...... I was thinking of operating the switch from a central panel next to my control station, so would I need to run two wires from both sides of the isolating joiner to this switch...does that seem logical? As per this from Brian Lambert (no copyright infringment intended - will remove if necessary) Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesmond Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Bob, That's exactly it. The locomotive will run down to the buffers on either of the two tracks depending on how the point is set. As you are using Insulfrog points, the entire length of the track which the point is set against will be dead (unless you fit a separate feed to it). Two wires from either side of the break to the control panel switch is also correct - you're getting this well. Definitely small steps are best, and record everything you do. As / when / if it breaks in five years a good diagram or wiring guide is hard to beat. Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I have modified Brian's diagram to show better what his note is saying. You don't have to run 2 wires all the way out and back. This would lead to even greater volt drops. If feed to the track, I have called it feed A, can be picked up from the control panel end, then the switch, then one wire to the spur. Think of the switch being at the other end of the wire, electrically the same, physically different. ( I feel I have not explained this well ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 16, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2017 I have modified Brian's diagram to show better what his note is saying. You don't have to run 2 wires all the way out and back. This would lead to even greater volt drops. If feed to the track, I have called it feed A, can be picked up from the control panel end, then the switch, then one wire to the spur. Think of the switch being at the other end of the wire, electrically the same, physically different. ( I feel I have not explained this well ) Right - BUT if this is on a siding you need to be careful if the insulated joint is on the side that goes dead to isolate the siding when insulated frog points are set away from the siding. The switch will provide power to the isolated section no matter which way the points are set which you may or may not find confusing/inconvenient. I.e. you have to remember when a loco has run onto the isolated section (including a multiple unit with any pick-up on it) that when you switch the points away from the siding you also have to switch the isolated section off to prevent the train from moving. I find that a nuisance myself - if I'm not deliberately isolating the end of the siding I don't want to have to think about the switch being there. One possibility is to isolate the other side (there's no reason you can't turn a section off by disconnecting the ground side) but that isn't always possible if there is more than one set of points between the feed and the siding. Although fairly obvious if you stop to think about it, I've never seen this written down anywhere. I'd like to say that I did think it all out before I started installing isolated sections but the truth is that I realised the problems the hard way. Running a wire out from one side of the joint and back to the other requires more wire but always works in a simple manner, i.e. you can't get the confusing situation of the isolated section live but not the rest of the siding when the points are set against it. I'm not convinced that voltage drops in the wires are likely to be a problem (especially as speeds and thus current will be low when entering/leaving an isolated section at the end of the line). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BobM Posted February 17, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2017 Hi Guys...... Just to let everyone know an that you're aware...... I have sourced advice on a way forward to wire up the layout.....and will be guiding me along as the layout develops....... Please, I don't want anyone to think I don't want anyone to comment or message me on the subject of electrics.....but I just wanted to let everyone know the current situation (no pun there intended).....but more that I would in no way want you kind guys to do such good work and them me to say 'Oh I've solved that' if you know what I am attempting to say......basically didn't want to waste your valuable time and above all your kindness...... Hope I've explained myself here......I will be posting on my thread of Cambrian Street as I progress... Cheers Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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