West Highland Line V4, a 1980's West Highland Line layout

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, 03060 said:

 

How noticeable would it be to have a lamp on either end of a 'fixed' rake such as the Alcan hoppers, Rob ? Just a thought, particularly when viewing from the above angle.

 

Seasons greetings to all,

Ian.

My transition era layout uses brake vans which makes the goods side easy. I do use a lamp on each end of coach rakes and hope the rear of the loco hides the front light. 

[BoD]

On 18/12/2022 at 07:32, young37215 said:

I have 4 Hornby OTA's which I tend to run in pairs so that they can be dropped off and collected from the intermediate stations along the line. The OTA's only arrived towards the end of my time window and the wagon liveries are of those carried after 1985. I would like to backdate the wagons to OTA-A as explained by James Makin on pages 44-46 of Keys excellent Modelling British Railways Wagonload Formations.  I have not noticed any running issues, they appear to function similarly to everything else on the layout. I do use a reamer to keep the axle boxes free running as I seem to get a number of wagons that squeak and squeel which is very effective. A reamer also clears away any misplaced paint following weathering. Have you tried one?, they get my recommendation.

 

Hello Rob.  Sorry I haven't replied earlier but I was 'playing trains' yesterday.  The design of the OTA axle boxes shown below has always struck me as being somewhat toy like.

 

 

 

 

As you can see, the axles do not fit into the axle boxes in any way.  When the correct way up the weight of the wagon must bear down on the axle through those two u shaped pieces on the bottom of the bogie.  Did you successfully 'ream out' any part of these?

[37Oban]

Hi,

 

I can see where you're coming from, but I still think the idea has merit, even it's not for you.  I've just had a wee browse, and a you can get 2mm x 1mm magnets, in packs of fifty, for under a fiver plus postage.  It may be a cheaper option to insert/glue the magnets to the rear of the lamps, with a small piece of steel, such a some track pins, glued inside the wagons.  Still need to remove the lamps manually, but would save the hand of God picking up the wagon!  It would a bit time consuming adding pins to all the wagons, though, but once done it wouldn't matter which wagon was at the end.

 

Once Christmas and the New Year are over (yay!)  I shall do a few experiments to see if it works.  I must confess that I shall only have around 6 brake vans for the various eras on St Mungos', plus around 15 locomotives, coaches and dmus/emus.

It may prove to be impractical, but, in for a penny, in for a pound, and if it doesn't work all I will have lost is a few pounds and some time!  I have plenty of time!

 

Have a good Christmas and Hogmanay!

 

Roja

[young37215]

23 hours ago, franciswilliamwebb said:

 

But perhaps an ideal interim solution nonetheless.  If an alternative does present itself it should be easy enough to change later on👍

 

Agreed, the Springside lamps I use are easy to remove should a better solution arise. I'll make a start on fitting some lamps over the next few days. 

 

23 hours ago, 03060 said:

How noticeable would it be to have a lamp on either end of a 'fixed' rake such as the Alcan hoppers,

 

Less noticeable than on the coaching stock where I have a fixed lamp at each end. As a first step and because I only have 8 spare lamps, I'll settle for 1 on each hoper rake and see how it works.  

 

14 hours ago, BoD said:

As you can see, the axles do not fit into the axle boxes in any way.  When the correct way up the weight of the wagon must bear down on the axle through those two u shaped pieces on the bottom of the bogie.  Did you successfully 'ream out' any part of these?

 

No, I have not reamed any part of the axle arrangement and only found the weird axle arrangement existed when I weathered my latest OTA a few weeks ago. Prior to that I was blissfully unaware and had not given it any thought because they run satisfactorily. On checking this morning, I find that all 4 of my OTA's have the same arrangement which blows my reaming advice out of the water. Sorry, but I have no idea how to improve the running of this set up. 

 

 

Yesterday I made a start on laying the polystyrene to construct the landscape from the viaduct up to Arrochar. Most of the track bed has been secured, I need to do some more work on the end 400mm piece of hardboard leading up to Arrochar before gluing everything down. With the additional 3M of scenery surrounding the viaduct I am also finding my self short of space to store spare wagon loads and other bits. A few offcuts of baseboard as shelving strategically located around the layout should solve this. 

 

 

 

[BoD]

2 hours ago, young37215 said:

No, I have not reamed any part of the axle arrangement and only found the weird axle arrangement existed when I weathered my latest OTA a few weeks ago.

If you give one a gentle push you will see how much less it freewheels compared to other stock.  I tried a train of five so the effect was obviously cumulative.  Anyway, enough of this on your thread, and I will continue to look for ways to improve their running.

[young37215]

Little visual progress yesterday although I spent a couple of hours fettling the track bed and making the rail ready to be glued on the 1 in 60 incline from the viaduct up to Arrochar.  I also spent some time operating which involved finishing a day of the WTT and then preparing to start another days running.

 

The last up train of the day is the sleeper where 37081 had charge seen at Crianlarich. 

 

 

 

 

[David Bell]

Lovely photos Rob.

Cheers

David

[Nick C]

On 19/12/2022 at 09:17, LNERGE said:

I have resorted to a fixed tail light at each end of my rake of MGR hoppers. Similarly the hand of god appears and rotates a brakevan now n then. Whats wrong with the odd intermediate tail lamp anyway?..

 

That's what happens when you no longer have any signalmen to examine passing trains!

[LNERGE]

28 minutes ago, Nick C said:

That's what happens when you no longer have any signalmen to examine passing trains!

It passed five open boxes unfortunately. 

[Nick C]

13 minutes ago, LNERGE said:

It passed five open boxes unfortunately. 

😲

[ianathompson]

12 hours ago, LNERGE said:

It passed five open boxes unfortunately. 

 

I can't see that having a light on a vehicle in the middle of a train is a massive problem.

I have stopped trains before now for not running with a lit tail lamp.

This is rather more important because, if by some disastrous set of circumstances, another train comes up behind it then it gives a final warning.

 

In any case how easy would it be to see that light in the middle of a train from a box?

The adjacent wagon is loaded as well, thereby cutting the sight lines.

In my experience you are usually operating equipment behind the train. such as signals and crossing barriers, and simply check the final wagon as it passes.

 

Ian T

[young37215]

An early summer evening at Fort William with 37033 shunting the mixed stock from the 18.40 ex Mallaig. 20045 sits on the steam stock, a failed 37 means that this is likely to be required for passenger duty tomorrow. How many neds will be able to get to Fort William in time for the 'line in the book'?

 

 

 

 

[BoD]

Just nit picking now Rob, but shouldn’t the discs showing yellow on the class 20 be rotated 180 degrees.  When folded down they covered the lights leaving the correct headcode showing.
 

Someone will now show a picture to prove me wrong.

[Matt]

On 19/12/2022 at 16:57, BoD said:

 

Hello Rob.  Sorry I haven't replied earlier but I was 'playing trains' yesterday.  The design of the OTA axle boxes shown below has always struck me as being somewhat toy like.

 

 

 

 

As you can see, the axles do not fit into the axle boxes in any way.  When the correct way up the weight of the wagon must bear down on the axle through those two u shaped pieces on the bottom of the bogie.  Did you successfully 'ream out' any part of these?

Regarding making these and other similar wagons (VAA, VDA, VGA, OBA, OCA, SPA etc.) run better, it can make a big difference if you lock up the axle pivot system - I have found that having the axles capable of rotate unnecessary even on R3 and prob R2 curves.  As stands the couplings cause the axles to be pulled out of true and put a lot of friction in the train (the plastic springs being barely capable of correcting this).  
 

To experiment, undo the axle unit retaining screw , remove axle unit and put a small blob of blue tack under it before refitting and screwing. Do this to both units and carefully align the axle unit true and see if helps. ALL my LWB wagons have this mod - I used to lock Them with glue but the blue tack method is effective for permanent mod.

M

[6990WitherslackHall]

 

23 minutes ago, BoD said:

Just nit picking now Rob, but shouldn’t the discs showing yellow on the class 20 be rotated 180 degrees.  When folded down they covered the lights leaving the correct headcode showing.
 

Someone will now show a picture to prove me wrong.

 

D8000 at Railway Museum, York

 

The top half of the headcode discs fold over so that they cover the bottom half.

 

 

 

[BoD]

That second photo illustrates what I was saying - but Interesting that one of the discs has been folded up still allowing the light to show.  
 

I can’t remember when showing headcodes by discs/lights ceased but the discs would  still be folded correctly.

[young37215]

34 minutes ago, BoD said:

Just nit picking now Rob, but shouldn’t the discs showing yellow on the class 20 be rotated 180 degrees.  When folded down they covered the lights leaving the correct headcode showing.
 

Someone will now show a picture to prove me wrong.

 

Guilty as charged, the picture I used as a reference shows I put the discs in the wrong way up. I wonder if they will come out easily.....

 

 

 

[young37215]

Even more annoying, my Flickr search shows that the number and BR sign on the cab side were non standard during my time window!  

 

 

[Nick C]

10 hours ago, ianathompson said:

I can't see that having a light on a vehicle in the middle of a train is a massive problem.

Because if the train were to divide at that point, someone could see the tail lamp on the rear of the leading portion, and assume the train was complete, and so the section in rear was clear - when in fact it wasn't.

[ianathompson]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

Because if the train were to divide at that point, someone could see the tail lamp on the rear of the leading portion, and assume the train was complete, and so the section in rear was clear - when in fact it wasn't.

 

Out of interest which regulation are you referring to?

The wagon and tail lamp are of a modern design and the wagon is air brake fitted.

 

My rules and regs were last updated in 2017 when I retired.

I can find no instruction in TS1 (General Signalling Instructions) or TS2 (Track Circuit Block) about tail lmaps on intermediate wagons.

I don't remember seeing a Cognisco question on this either. 

Has this recently been added?

 

The intermediate tail lamp shown in the photo also seems to be on an engineering wagon.

As amy-one who has worked on the railways will know they are a law unto themselves.

 

It would seem likely to me, in a modern environment, that if the train divided  the air brake would apply.

Secondly, hardly an ideal situation I must admit, but the rear section of the divided train would have a tail lamp on its rear. 

If the front part somehow continued, and if it divided at exactly the point where the intermediate tail lamp was placed, there would be a problem.

The rear tail lamp on the detached section would still stop a following train running in to it unless it was on a single line.

 

The only freights that I ever dealt with ran in a fixed formation. 

It would thus seem unlikely that a tail lamp would be placed on an intermediate wagon in a complete rake.

On the mainly single line branch where I worked the trains would be roughly the same length every day.

If a "short" train went past a phone call to the previous box  could have ascertained whether it was still in one piece or not.

Alternatively a quick query of TOPS would achieve the same result.

(I forget the exact DoS command at this remove. (TRJC?))

 

Which boxes do you work?

I checked the trains as they left the terminus but at some of the intermedaite boxes (I was a relief) they could fly past at 70 mph. 

That makes it difficult to observe an intermedaite tail light, especially where large wagons interfere with the line of sight and you are hard up against the line in the box.

In addition, as I noted, I was often working equipment behind the train to free up the single line for a train in the opposite direction.

 TDA were quick to ring up, even about a 1 minute delay to a crossing train.

Perhaps they are more relaxed wherever you work.

 

I would accept the underlying argument more readily in the steam era when there was no automatic brake.

It would seem likely that a goods train in these circumstances would be running more slowly and there was more chance of the error being spotted.

Timetables were not so tight and no-one would likely query a minute or two's delay in putting a train out.

 

Look forward to some-one correcting my (now sketchy) knowledge of rules and reds!

 

Ian T

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, ianathompson said:

 

Out of interest which regulation are you referring to?

The wagon and tail lamp are of a modern design and the wagon is air brake fitted.

 

My rules and regs were last updated in 2017 when I retired.

I can find no instruction in TS1 (General Signalling Instructions) or TS2 (Track Circuit Block) about tail lmaps on intermediate wagons.

I don't remember seeing a Cognisco question on this either. 

Has this recently been added?

 

The intermediate tail lamp shown in the photo also seems to be on an engineering wagon.

As amy-one who has worked on the railways will know they are a law unto themselves.

 

It would seem likely to me, in a modern environment, that if the train divided  the air brake would apply.

Secondly, hardly an ideal situation I must admit, but the rear section of the divided train would have a tail lamp on its rear. 

If the front part somehow continued, and if it divided at exactly the point where the intermediate tail lamp was placed, there would be a problem.

The rear tail lamp on the detached section would still stop a following train running in to it unless it was on a single line.

 

The only freights that I ever dealt with ran in a fixed formation. 

It would thus seem unlikely that a tail lamp would be placed on an intermediate wagon in a complete rake.

On the mainly single line branch where I worked the trains would be roughly the same length every day.

If a "short" train went past a phone call to the previous box  could have ascertained whether it was still in one piece or not.

Alternatively a quick query of TOPS would achieve the same result.

(I forget the exact DoS command at this remove. (TRJC?))

 

Which boxes do you work?

I checked the trains as they left the terminus but at some of the intermedaite boxes (I was a relief) they could fly past at 70 mph. 

That makes it difficult to observe an intermedaite tail light, especially where large wagons interfere with the line of sight and you are hard up against the line in the box.

In addition, as I noted, I was often working equipment behind the train to free up the single line for a train in the opposite direction.

 TDA were quick to ring up, even about a 1 minute delay to a crossing train.

Perhaps they are more relaxed wherever you work.

 

I would accept the underlying argument more readily in the steam era when there was no automatic brake.

It would seem likely that a goods train in these circumstances would be running more slowly and there was more chance of the error being spotted.

Timetables were not so tight and no-one would likely query a minute or two's delay in putting a train out.

 

Look forward to some-one correcting my (now sketchy) knowledge of rules and reds!

 

Ian T

Yes, a pretty unlikely scenario on a fully air braked train, I'll admit!

 

I'm a signaller on a heritage railway, so our rule book will be a bit different (with most trains being vac braked for a start, 25mph limit and single line key token block with boxes at every station). I was merely suggesting a reason for why an intermediate tail lamp would be frowned upon!

[03060]

14 hours ago, BoD said:

Just nit picking now Rob, but shouldn’t the discs showing yellow on the class 20 be rotated 180 degrees.  When folded down they covered the lights leaving the correct headcode showing.
 

Someone will now show a picture to prove me wrong.

 

The plot thickens .... 20049 at FW by Dave Cobbe

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p448560584/hB86EEFED#hb86eefed

 

 

20083 at FW by Adrian Nicholls.

 

 

 

....and out on the Mallaig road 20048 by Kevin Delaney.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by 03060
Extra info added.

[BoD]

8 minutes ago, 03060 said:

 

The plot thickens .... 20049 at FW by Dave Cobbe

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p448560584/hB86EEFED#hb86eefed

 

 

I told you someone would find such a photo.  Perhaps by that date it was just a case of whatever took their fancy.  

[03060]

6 minutes ago, BoD said:

I told you someone would find such a photo.  Perhaps by that date it was just a case of whatever took their fancy.  

 

Sorry .... purely observational from my point of view as I have no idea what any of these codes are supposed to represent.

 

Kind Regards,

Ian.

[BoD]

6 minutes ago, 03060 said:

 

Sorry .... purely observational from my point of view as I have no idea what any of these codes are supposed to represent.

 

Kind Regards,

Ian.

If you go by the discs it is an express freight.  With all lamps showing it is a royal train.  
 

Numerical headcode blinds  and disc reporting were abandoned in 1976/77. Headcodes were replaced with 0000 and it looks as if discs were just what the driver fancied.

 

So, good news Rob, no need to change those discs unless you want to replicate a particular photograph.