RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2017 I've got a feeling I actually know this and have forgotten it. This is because the mortal remains of my once magnificent brain have degenerated into swiss cheese and stuff falls out of the holes, to be lost, lost forever... When a GW or BR (W) auto train is running with the trailer(s) leading and the loco propelling from the rear, where on the loco, by which I mean on which bracket, is the tail lamp carried? I have been running my auto with 2 head lamps, one on the trailer cab and one on the loco smokebox, and cheating by dabbing the trailing one with a bit of red marker and wiping it off with a cotton wool bud when I change direction, but it occurred to me that I may not be correct in having a tail lamp on the smokebox bracket of the loco. Pretty sure Stationmaster will know this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) I would expect that, when the trailer is being propelled, it carries a single white lamp on the leading end and the loco, as last vehicle in the train carries a single red on the bunker or middle bracket on the front bufferbeam depending on which way the loco is facing. Ray. Edited January 5, 2017 by Marshall5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2017 I've got a feeling I actually know this and have forgotten it. This is because the mortal remains of my once magnificent brain have degenerated into swiss cheese and stuff falls out of the holes, to be lost, lost forever... When a GW or BR (W) auto train is running with the trailer(s) leading and the loco propelling from the rear, where on the loco, by which I mean on which bracket, is the tail lamp carried? I have been running my auto with 2 head lamps, one on the trailer cab and one on the loco smokebox, and cheating by dabbing the trailing one with a bit of red marker and wiping it off with a cotton wool bud when I change direction, but it occurred to me that I may not be correct in having a tail lamp on the smokebox bracket of the loco. Pretty sure Stationmaster will know this! Up until April 1943 the position for the tail lamp when the engine was trailing was not specified. However from then and for the rest of the life of autotrains the Instructions were that when the lamp was not lighted it was to be carried on the bracket at the base of the chimney and when it was lighted it was to be carried on the middle lamp bracket above the buffer plank, Of course what this means is that whichever way the train was going in daylight or when there were no listed tunnels through which lamps had to be lit the lamp on the engine stayed in the same position all the time as it was a Class B/Class 2 headlight when the engine led and became the tail lamp when the engine trailed (and I doubt if anybody bothered to insert the red shade). I do know there were some branches where Class B trains were authorised to carry the head lamp on the middle bracket above the buffer plank and no doubt if autotrains ran on any of those lines the lamp was perpetually placed on that bracket - day or night. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 5, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2017 Knew I could rely on you, SM, and thank you Ray. I have in fact been using the correct post 1943 procedure, but it's nice to have it confirmed. Of course, if I ever start running night trains... or of course I could authorise my branch to allow class B trains to carry the lamp on the middle bracket, which is a better (by which I mean easier) place to attach it anyway on locos without brackets (fitting brackets is one of the jobs deferred until the layout is more complete). I had some half remembered vague notion that a tail lamp carried on a loco had to be positioned above the rear left hand buffer in the direction of travel, but I'm obviously thinking about something else. Don't mock, you'll all be old and useless one day as well... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted January 6, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2017 I thought that the rear lamp was carried on whichever bracket was easiest to reach from the platform! Don't quote me. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2017 I thought that the rear lamp was carried on whichever bracket was easiest to reach from the platform! Don't quote me. I think that in practice that's about right. The only specific situations for tail and sidelamps were on trains conveying slip coaches (on the GWR at any rate), at one time on passenger trains running in two or more parts and, of course, on freight trains. Lamping passenger trains the lamp always seemed to go on the side nearest the platform for obvious reasons and I can't find any stipulation anywhere about where it should be carried on a light engine, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 6, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) I think that in practice that's about right. The only specific situations for tail and sidelamps were on trains conveying slip coaches (on the GWR at any rate), at one time on passenger trains running in two or more parts and, of course, on freight trains. Lamping passenger trains the lamp always seemed to go on the side nearest the platform for obvious reasons and I can't find any stipulation anywhere about where it should be carried on a light engine, I don't remember it being any different to that in the 70s, with the proviso that you might make the effort to put the lamp on the bracket furthest from the platform if you had some reason to want to save time or effort at the other end of the line when you changed the lamp around. For Cardiff Valleys trains most of the platforms where trains terminated were on the same side anyway; Barry Island, Penarth, Cardiff Central, Bute Road, Treherbert, Merthyr, and Rhymni. Only Coryton was the other side. Aberdare, Maesteg, and Ebbw Vale weren't open then. Can't help wondering why some branches were authorised to carry head lamps on the centre buffer beam bracket on class B trains; there was alway a reason for this sort of thing. I have certainly seen photos of auto trains lamped in this way, but as I am basing my practice on the Abergwynfi branch, which shows haedlamps in the smokebox position in all photos irrespective of auto or 'normal' working, I will not do it on Cwmdimbath unless there is a specific reason that I can quote; it is certainly an easier place to mount a lamp from a modelling perspective, though. Light engines were diesel by my time, and used their own tail marker lights, but IIRC had to have an oil tail lamp if they were hauled 'dead' Some freight brake vans had tail lamp brackets in two positions, and I cannot recall any reason for that or rule for which one to use either. On a freight brake van you accessed the bracket from the verandah anyway (or the cabin for one end of a GW toad). Edited July 22, 2017 by The Johnster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 14, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 14, 2017 If you follow my 'Lamps!' thread, then firstly you should get out more, but secondly you will have been treated to the soap opera of my attempts to provide a system of attaching and detaching lamps to and from my trains in order to have them lamped correctly. This has now been achieved by the use of Modelu lamps, which have slots in the bottom to accept brackets, and brackets made out of no.13 staples fitted to the stock. This system works and caters for all possible eventualities, up to and including Royal Train. Retrofitting such brackets to the auto set and loco(s) will mean that my autos can now carry the correct head and tail lamps for any time of night or day. Now to devise a method of lighting Modelu lamps, with the correct amount of flicker... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 8, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2018 In practice, I have cheated a little with the autos (I now have 2 auto trains in service). The locos are dedicated to these trains, a 64xx and a 4575, and the trains carry head lamps in both directions; these are old Springside jewelled lamps glued into permanent position. Modelus are used on all other trains. There are drawbacks to this, and I may yet get around to providing my autos with brackets and Modelu lamps. The main issue is that tail traffic cannot be carried without a lamp being in the middle of the train, which is of course very incorrect. I am also considering a long term plan to have one of the autos capable of night working, with head and tail lamps automatically reversing when the direction is changed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 1, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) Update; the autos now have head and tail lamps carried correctly and changed when the train changes direction, Modelu or drilled Springsides on staple brackets. This is far better, more correct, and both enables tail traffic to be hauled and the locos to do other work if necessary. A feature of Abergwynfi, on which Cwmdimbath is very loosely based and which also used locos and stock supplied by Tondu, seems to have been that more than the amount of photographs you'd expect show trains of auto trailers worked by non-auto fitted locos which have to run around. A colour shot features on Google Images of a 57xx with 3 trailers, which look like an N, an A44, and an A27, the latter being the 'wrong way' around, all in crimson livery so presumably in the mid 50s sometime. The shed may have been short of auto locos; the Rail UK site confirms that there were none there in 1948, but auto working was introduced by BR, 4581, 6408/10/31/36 are shown as withdrawn from the shed, and I know 5552 was there at one time as well (Abergwynfi photo evidence); that's 6, to cover Porthcawl, Abergwynfi, Ogmore Vale, Nantymoel, and Gllfach Goch, some branches possibly requiring 2 trains in service, and I could not categorically state that all or any 6 locos were there simultaneously. It is not what you'd call an overprovision. Abergwynfi and Gilfach Goch are the longest distance workings, and there may be some reason that Abergwynfi had non-auto loco substituted over other branches; photos of Gilfach in BR days show autos exclusively, and are thin on the ground for the other branches. Nantymoel closed to passengers in 1952 IIRC and is therefore out of the loop for most of this. On the other hand, there were locos at Tondu that I cannot think of an immediate use for, small prairie 4557 and large prairie 4145. I can only assume that 4557 was there to act as deputy to 4404/8, used on the Porthcawl branch, and that 4145 performed the same function for 3100, used on the Porthcawl-Cardiff commuter train (Canton had 3105 for the reciprocal working), but an unable to confirm this. The likelihood of either of these locos appearing up at Cwmdimbath is questionable, but I have seen a photo of a large prairie which I assume is 4145 at Abergwynfi, and have an antediluvian Airfix that appears occasionally representing her. She would be an ideal loco for any excursion as far as Barry Island, or Cardiff for the rugby. So, I am encouraged to have a substitution of a non-auto loco on my trains to mix things up a bit occasionally. 2761 should not be used, though; she was withdrawn before the introduction of auto services. My auto trailers have thus all been provided with lamp brackets on both ends. My auto locos are 4581 and 6408, incidentally. Edited August 1, 2018 by The Johnster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 1, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2018 The situation has not been static since the last post; a squiz at some of the goings on on the 'South Wales Valleys in the 50s' thread will outline the thought processes behind them. 6408 has been retired from service, and her body given to a new home; her chassis has found it's way beneath an 8750, 9681. My period is ostensibly 1948 to 1958, and the 64xx do not seem to have arrived at Tondu until later than this. Extra information has been gleaned from BR database, which, cross referenced with Rail UK, gives a better picture of what locos were allocated to Tondu and when; some of my assumptions have proved a step too far! Also withdrawn is 4145, and my intention to replace her with the new Dapol when it appears will not be carried out. The loco is shown correctly enough by Rail UK to have been at Tondu at nationalisation, but was transferred to Canton only 3 months later; no 5101 appeared at Tondu until 4144 turned up at the end of September 1958, right at the end of my period. Auto fitted locos in the form of 4575 small prairies were not available until late in 1955, which may coincide with the withdrawal of first class and possibly explain the photos showing auto trailer hauled by 57xx if they predate that. 4581 did not arrive until a year later, so it has been renumbered, again, as 5555, the class member that spent the longest time allocated here. Comings and goings make it hard to keep track, but there don't seem to have been more than 3 available at any time. By this time, however, only Abergwynfi, Porthcawl, and Gilfach Goch still had passenger service, and I can't find any photos of 4575s on the Porthcawl branch, which was very much 64xx territory in a few years time. A 4557 in lined black came up on 'Bay and I bought it; it carries a Whitland shed plate so I am not 100% sure it was in this livery at Tondu. So, I now have only one auto fitted loco to work my auto train. As I have begun to schedule 48 hour boiler washouts for my locos every 10 working days, I am going to have to rethink my timetable to allow paths at Cwmdimbath for running around of auto services! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 1, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2018 So, I now have only one auto fitted loco to work my auto train. As I have begun to schedule 48 hour boiler washouts for my locos every 10 working days, I am going to have to rethink my timetable to allow paths at Cwmdimbath for running around of auto services! Didn't seem to bother them on the Bumble Hole. If they were short of a railcar or 64xx they pushed an autocoach with an 8750. What the boss doesn't see...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 At Monmouth Troy, lamp positioning was variable: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/monmouth_troy/monmouth(brooksbank11.1958)troy_old12.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 1, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2018 Didn't seem to bother them on the Bumble Hole. If they were short of a railcar or 64xx they pushed an autocoach with an 8750. What the boss doesn't see...... Don't think they'd have got away with this at Cwmdimbath with a train that had to originate at Bridgend, where they had main line pretensions, and Tondu, the District HQ. That said, a long ago conversation with a Canton driver when I worked there back in the 70s when the pound was still worth 60p revealed that propelling of this sort was common on Cardiff's Riverside Branch, with nobody in the auto trailer cab but with auto fitted locos, to save time and effort. What and where was the Bumble Hole? And if it's a euphemism for something horrible, please don't reply, I've been caught that way before... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 2, 2018 I thought that the rear lamp was carried on whichever bracket was easiest to reach from the platform! Don't quote me. So often true, unless there was an inspector around.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 2, 2018 What and where was the Bumble Hole? And if it's a euphemism for something horrible, please don't reply, I've been caught that way before... It was a branch between Blower's Green on the OWW south of Dudley and Old Hill on the Stourbridge line. There were intermediate stations at Baptist End, Windmill End, Darby End Halt and Old Hill High Street. Auto Trains and Railcars ran between Dudley and Old Hill. "Windmill End" were the last words of the Flanders and Swann song The Slow Train The Bumble Hole itself was an area of coal mines, brick pits and factories which is now a nature reserve. It was also served by the Bumble Hole Branch canal. Besides serving local traffic the line was useful as it was a Dotted Red route and could be used to divert from Handsworth Junction to Priestfield on the Snow Hill - Wolverhampton line. It occasionally saw locos as big as Castles on diverted expresses when the bridge at Wednesbury was being rebuilt 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 2, 2018 For those not familiar with the Black Country, the Bumble Hole is at the centre of this map See also https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=52.4903&lon=-2.0740&layers=168&b=1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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