Formula 1 2017

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I favour re-fuelling too, but I have not found the right argument to counter the suggestion that people might die or be critically injured due to same.

 Diesel.

[njee20]

Were there any pit lane fatalities, or even serious injuries, from fires in the last 20 years of refuelling? Verstappen's "mishap" is the one that springs to mind. I think it's a bit of a non issue that one, but I'm also not sure it would add much to the racing.

[Dunsignalling]

I have a £10 bet made with a friend that McLaren won't get on the podium before (and including) Monaco, feeling good...

Was there any mention made of which year it might happen in this wager?

 

Unless Honda get their act together pretty rapidly, I can't see it being 2017.

 

John

[Edge]

Were there any pit lane fatalities, or even serious injuries, from fires in the last 20 years of refuelling? Verstappen's "mishap" is the one that springs to mind. I think it's a bit of a non issue that one, but I'm also not sure it would add much to the racing.

 

I also remember the most serious fuel issue of recent years happened last year at Malaysia where fuel was literally fountaining out of the top of Magnussen's Renault and nobody could put the fire out

 

I liked refuelling - it gave chance for another roll of the dice strategy-wise, which always led to better races, Not necessarily more overtaking, but better races in my view. 2009 was wonderful for me, and its no coincidence that that was the year of rock hard tyres (y comparison anyway) and fuel at pit stops

[Oldddudders]

I also remember the most serious fuel issue of recent years happened last year at Malaysia where fuel was literally fountaining out of the top of Magnussen's Renault and nobody could put the fire out

 

I liked refuelling - it gave chance for another roll of the dice strategy-wise, which always led to better races, Not necessarily more overtaking, but better races in my view. 2009 was wonderful for me, and its no coincidence that that was the year of rock hard tyres (y comparison anyway) and fuel at pit stops

Perhaps Ecclebum was working on a plan to make these hybrid cars change battery during the race. Just as challenging, I suspect, because I bet they get awfully hot, but without the risk of explosion, or of your fuel supply kit not working.

[Andrew P]

Re Fueling and Tyre Changing is fine if it goes right, but if one Mechanic C*cks it up, then the Driver suffers and that for me takes away the reason for Motor Racing, to find out which is the best Driver.

 

It;s the same if the Pit Crew dont fit the wheel correctly, the Driver gets penalised, and I don't get that, he has done nothing wrong, and is already penalised so why does the Driver suffer twice.

 

From my point of view I would like to see Tyres and Fuel go a Race Distance, and put the statergy down to the Driver to do what he can with the Car he's been given.

[Zomboid]

If it were really about who the fastest driver was they wouldn't bother with the constructors championship. In fact, it would probably be a single make series.

[Edge]

Re Fueling and Tyre Changing is fine if it goes right, but if one Mechanic C*cks it up, then the Driver suffers and that for me takes away the reason for Motor Racing, to find out which is the best Driver.

 

It;s the same if the Pit Crew dont fit the wheel correctly, the Driver gets penalised, and I don't get that, he has done nothing wrong, and is already penalised so why does the Driver suffer twice.

 

From my point of view I would like to see Tyres and Fuel go a Race Distance, and put the statergy down to the Driver to do what he can with the Car he's been given.

 

In an ideal world, that would work, but as F1 stands at the moment that would end up with finishing positions almost exactly the same as the grid order after qualifying

[Andrew P]

If it were really about who the fastest driver was they wouldn't bother with the constructors championship. In fact, it would probably be a single make series.

 

In an ideal world, that would work, but as F1 stands at the moment that would end up with finishing positions almost exactly the same as the grid order after qualifying

Yes unfortunately I have to agree with both of you.

 

Still lets see what this weekend dishes up.

[Adrian Wintle]

Simple: do it like the US oval racers (NASCAR): while the car is refuelled, NO other work (cleaning, tires, wing-adjustments) on the car is allowed! A baffle-on-a-stick is placed between driver and intake during refuelling and a minimum of 2 staff/pit crew hold fire extinguishers at the ready. Car design needs to be altered such that any leaked fuel is diverted from any and all hot parts (motor, brakes, etc). Penalty-wise: spilling fuel gives a 120 sec. time penalty (in practice, for most circuits this is a lap or close to that), a fire means automatic disqualification for the entire team for that race and a pit start for the next one.

 

Just me tuppence

 

Unless it has changed very recently, NASCAR does allow other work to be done while they are refuelling. The refuelling is safer because it is a gravity fed system and, because the refueller has a dump can of fuel, the amount of fuel that can be spilled is minimized. Indycar makes it safer by using methanol as the fuel - it will still catch fire but it can be extinguished with water.

 

Some forms of sportscar racing (Le Mans etc.)  require that the refuelling be completed before any other work (except the driver change) is done. Some also require the engine to be switched off during the pitstop.

 

The biggest difference between refuelling in North American racing and European racing is that North American tracks have an inner pit wall. Only a limited number of people are allowed over the inner pit wall, and only when working on their car. This limits the number of people at risk during pitstops and means that any fire cannot make it to the 'garage' area. The number of people allowed over the wall to work on the car is also limited. In NASCAR it is six (sometimes a seventh is allowed if conditions warrant) plus a NASCAR official - front tire changer, front tire carrier, rear tire changer, rear tire carrier, gasman (refueller), and jackman. Contrast this to the 15? people to change tires in an F1 pitstop (plus all the extraneous people in the pit lane and the extras in the garage which is open to the pit lane).

 

Adrian

[Sidecar Racer]

 Indycar makes it safer by using methanol as the fuel - it will still catch fire but it can be extinguished with water.

 

 

 But the problem then is that methanol burns with a clear flame that is invisible , you only

know there is a fire when you feel it .

[ess1uk]

Jenson is too fast!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/39503827/jenson-button-disqualified-from-ironman-competition-for-speeding

[Mike Storey]

Unless it has changed very recently, NASCAR does allow other work to be done while they are refuelling. The refuelling is safer because it is a gravity fed system and, because the refueller has a dump can of fuel, the amount of fuel that can be spilled is minimized. Indycar makes it safer by using methanol as the fuel - it will still catch fire but it can be extinguished with water.

 

Some forms of sportscar racing (Le Mans etc.)  require that the refuelling be completed before any other work (except the driver change) is done. Some also require the engine to be switched off during the pitstop.

 

The biggest difference between refuelling in North American racing and European racing is that North American tracks have an inner pit wall. Only a limited number of people are allowed over the inner pit wall, and only when working on their car. This limits the number of people at risk during pitstops and means that any fire cannot make it to the 'garage' area. The number of people allowed over the wall to work on the car is also limited. In NASCAR it is six (sometimes a seventh is allowed if conditions warrant) plus a NASCAR official - front tire changer, front tire carrier, rear tire changer, rear tire carrier, gasman (refueller), and jackman. Contrast this to the 15? people to change tires in an F1 pitstop (plus all the extraneous people in the pit lane and the extras in the garage which is open to the pit lane).

 

Adrian

 

Too true - it was a bit like that in my local Kwik Fit - tyre change record 1hr 47 mins, with only two personnel involved (a third of the time of which involved trying to persuade me to join their loyalty club. Why didn't Eccles think of that?). There was a clear demarcation wall between the pit crew and the support team, mostly identified by a very large beverage machine (why didn't  Eccles think of that either?) I could have still beaten a McLaren to the lights.....

[57xx]

 But the problem then is that methanol burns with a clear flame that is invisible , you only

know there is a fire when you feel it .

 

Exactly, this makes it more dangerous. It is also very toxic. I wouldn't want to be the driver accidentally doused in it and waking up blind the next day.

 

 Contrast this to the 15? people to change tires in an F1 pitstop (plus all the extraneous people in the pit lane and the extras in the garage which is open to the pit lane).

 

I thought 15 sounded a bit high at first glance, but this video shows 22 on a Ferrari pitstop!! Add at least two more for refuelling...

Edited April 5, 2017 by 57xx

[Smiffy2]

 It is said that the ill-health of Tazio Nuvolari in his later years was due to inhaling the exhaust fumes of other cars using the exotic, methanol-based fuels of the time. I'm not 100% convinced, as mostly he was ahead of the other cars...

 

A friend of mine, back in the Ford Anglia times, used to get four people in his car, drive to a secluded location, stop and shout 'pitstop!' whereupon we would pile out and move all the wheels round one...

 

As I recall we did it in under five minutes in Banstead High Street once.

[Adrian Wintle]

 But the problem then is that methanol burns with a clear flame that is invisible , you only

know there is a fire when you feel it .

 

True, but it burns cooler than petrol so you have a chance of noticing before it does serious damage. There is also an awareness of this in the pits, and the crews look out for one another. While there have been the occasional pit fires I can't recall anyone being seriously burned in the time I've been following the various incarnations of North American open-wheel racing (CART, IRL, Indycar...)

 

Adrian

[Oldddudders]

China - Free Practice. What a -up! FP1 interrupted repeatedly because due to bad weather the medical helicopter could not be landed at the designated Shanghai hospital. Only 14 drivers set a time. FP2 abandoned altogether, for the same reason.

 

So Lewis climbed the pitwall, filmed the crowd, signed hats and threw them into the crowd, did selfies with the crowd. An entertainer.

 

Apparently tomorrow is dry, Sunday may be wet. Oh, dear.

[Smiffy2]

And, with more bad weather predicted for Sunday, the race might be brought forward to tomorrow.

https://www.pitpass.com/58715/Helicopter-issue-means-no-running-in-FP2

[Smiffy2]

Race organisers now saying that there will be no changes in the schedule, and Saturday will go ahead as per. They believe the fog will not be so bad as to ground the helicopter on Sunday.

 

You expect it in the Eifel mountains, but...

[Andrew P]

They could all stay in their Garages on Sunday and draw lots, the one with No 1 gets the Trophy. hahah.

[Andrew P]

And another one bites the dust.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39525076

[The Stationmaster]

And another one bites the dust.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39525076

 

And others to follow probably ...   ... now that Bernie has gone

[Andrew P]

And others to follow probably ...   ... now that Bernie has gone

And probably end up just as a USA series.

[57xx]

And others to follow probably ...   ... now that Bernie has gone

 

One can only hope that the recent Tilke tracks get the heave ho.

Edited April 7, 2017 by 57xx

[Oldddudders]

And probably end up just as a USA series.

The US neither wants it nor needs it. It has many highly successful racing formulae of its own, none of which incurs the ridiculous costs of F1. Let F1 be concentrated back in Europe, where it started, and where all the traditional great teams have always been based. That wouldn't suit Liberty, of course, for whom profit is the only motivation, and the US is seen as the land of promise. But they may have a hard time getting the most out of the sport in that continent, where it simply isn't needed. Existing single-seater championships there are a poor second to the simplistic but affordable and accessible NASCAR.