Hornby announce Class 800 IEP

[Shaun66]

I received an update from Hornby the other day. They have found that the unit does suffer with traction issues but apparently it is subject to the layout. There solution is to fit traction tyres to the drive unit, which they will do. I have asked if this will be made as an official public release and some other questions, which I am still awaiting a response. So I would suggest to anyone that is having issues is to contact Hornby directly.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Shaun66 said:

I received an update from Hornby the other day. They have found that the unit does suffer with traction issues but apparently it is subject to the layout. There solution is to fit traction tyres to the drive unit, which they will do. I have asked if this will be made as an official public release and some other questions, which I am still awaiting a response. So I would suggest to anyone that is having issues is to contact Hornby directly.

Solution = work around.

Stressing the motor will only shorten its life.

 

is it too hard to ask for free wheeling coaches ?

[Shaun66]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Solution = work around.

Stressing the motor will only shorten its life.

 

is it too hard to ask for free wheeling coaches ?

I have asked them if they would consider adding pin point axles to the coaches that could accommodate them, as I feel that would probably solve the issue. 

[Phil Mc]

I haven’t got either 9 car sets, but I do have the first release GWR set and the first release LNER set, both of which run perfectly happily at any speed you could want, no resistance or dragging axles, etc….

Just to for fun, not that long after purchase, I added the coaches from one unit into the other set, and vice versa.
Admittedly, this only produces an 8 car set, but both sets ran quite happily.

Have I just been lucky with both mine, or had they been run enough to ‘bed in’ and free up any tight spots, or is it a case that something has changed in manufacturing ( tolerance, material spec, etc ), and Hornby need to investigate what’s changed, and return to previous standards ?

I realise this doesn’t immediately help the customers that have got the new sets, but it might help Hornby find the cause of the issue, and therefore find a solution, because I wouldn’t be happy if the ‘solution’ is to fit traction tyres !

 

cheers,

Phil.

[Class 158 productions]

16 hours ago, Shaun66 said:

I have asked them if they would consider adding pin point axles to the coaches that could accommodate them, as I feel that would probably solve the issue. 

That would require a new bogie design. The Hornby class 80x has axles that sit in inboard plastic bearings and one set of wiper pickups on all coaches. Despite the 802 trailer cars (which need to be inboard due to the open frame) , the bogies/axles could and probably should have had bearings/pin points fitted. A double edged sword would be to to have axle pickups/bearings on all wheels, it allows the issues of flickering to be addressed, reduces friction and can allow the inboard bearing design of the 802 trailer cars to remain. Obviously every change would require retooling/testing as well as the retrofitting process which would be expensive and hard to arrange. 

 

I too have just emailed Hornby and hope more do to raise this issue. At the end of the day, this is an expensive flagship model that cannot run in it's realistic formation out of the box. It points to a lack of testing, which the first batches of 800s suffered from with the de-railing issues hence the amendments to the design later. One would hope on the release that one had a new bogie design and two was a far longer train, that testing the performance of a model that has had issues before would be a top priority especially after this products long gestation, but no. 

 

Hoping for a permanent solution soon. 

[Shaun66]

4 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

That would require a new bogie design. The Hornby class 80x has axles that sit in inboard plastic bearings and one set of wiper pickups on all coaches. Despite the 802 trailer cars (which need to be inboard due to the open frame) , the bogies/axles could and probably should have had bearings/pin points fitted. A double edged sword would be to to have axle pickups/bearings on all wheels, it allows the issues of flickering to be addressed, reduces friction and can allow the inboard bearing design of the 802 trailer cars to remain. Obviously every change would require retooling/testing as well as the retrofitting process which would be expensive and hard to arrange. 

 

I too have just emailed Hornby and hope more do to raise this issue. At the end of the day, this is an expensive flagship model that cannot run in it's realistic formation out of the box. It points to a lack of testing, which the first batches of 800s suffered from with the de-railing issues hence the amendments to the design later. One would hope on the release that one had a new bogie design and two was a far longer train, that testing the performance of a model that has had issues before would be a top priority especially after this products long gestation, but no. 

 

Hoping for a permanent solution soon. 

 

I do hope for a more permanent and satisfactory solution given the fact this is an expensive model. I think something like the Bachmann mk2 coach pickups would be ideal, where the bearing is also the pickup. I'd be happy if Hornby did redesign the bogies to be retrofitted, especially after paying over £600 for a model that isn't fit for purpose. Hopefully more people will contact Hornby as well.

[Mike Harvey]

Maybe Hornby should look at how Kato has made their N gauge 9 car Azuma.  The coaches with inside bearing wheelsets roll freely and my set was tested very briefly at a scale 300km per hour. The 9 car sets come with traction tyres as is typical for Kato units which will not run in multiple. The Kato 5 car sets have no traction tyres and the power car is interchangeable between 5 and 9 car sets. The non-traction tyred power car has no problem shifting the 9 car set.

[georgeds]

I've had notification mine is on the way, so it is disappointing to hear this didn't get resolved before being released. At any price the unit should function correctly, but, even with retailer discount its £600 for the 9 car set so it smarts that little bit more.

 

I did consider cancelling my pre order but ultimately this is going to be a core train for my layout. I've ordered some liquid lead that i'm hoping to hide in various places on the drive unit.

 

What grease is recommended for the trailing axles?

 

Thanks

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

 

 

Hoping for a permanent solution soon. 

I stopped buying Hornby coaches when the downgraded Brighton Belle couldnt pull itself, followed by buying the coronation scot set which seemed to have the brakes moulded on tight too…

 

it shouldnt be hard to expect a coach that rolls.

 

Ive not ordered the LNER Coronation coaches either, as ive lost confidence.

Edited August 5 by adb968008

[LMSfan72]

I have the Celebrating Scotland set which is an 800/1. Prototypically it’s a 9-car set but Hornby only made it 5. I originally thought I’d renumber as an 800/2 but that also means repainting the special livery. Now that the 801/1 extra coaches are available I am considering using those. However, I am not sure if they are actually the same - nor am I sure that they reflect the correct coach types for the full rake. Does anyone with a bit more knowledge have a view??

 

 

[georgeds]

My 9 car set was delivered yesterday.

 

There's no grease on the trailing axles but they are easily free spinning (by hand). Only the axles with pickups have noticable drag. Will be interesting to see whether it will run out of the box when I get time to fully unpack and get on the layout. Liquid lead and PTFE grease on standby!

[LMSfan72]

1 hour ago, LMSfan72 said:

I have the Celebrating Scotland set which is an 800/1. Prototypically it’s a 9-car set but Hornby only made it 5. I originally thought I’d renumber as an 800/2 but that also means repainting the special livery. Now that the 801/1 extra coaches are available I am considering using those. However, I am not sure if they are actually the same - nor am I sure that they reflect the correct coach types for the full rake. Does anyone with a bit more knowledge have a view??

 

 

The other question I have is about running the 800/2 in pairs. I am assuming that they couple so that they run the same way (I.e with the DPTS to DPTF rather than DPTS -DPTS etc). If so, I might see if I can swap bodies as it would be ideal to have a motor at each train end which would also mean no need for lights (and therefore decoders) in the middle!

[Mike Harvey]

37 minutes ago, LMSfan72 said:

The other question I have is about running the 800/2 in pairs. I am assuming that they couple so that they run the same way (I.e with the DPTS to DPTF rather than DPTS -DPTS etc). If so, I might see if I can swap bodies as it would be ideal to have a motor at each train end which would also mean no need for lights (and therefore decoders) in the middle!

You might get more reliable operation with the two powered cars in the middle. One power collection glitch on power cars at the ends might result in 8 cars off the road.  Of course that would not save decoders.

[LMSfan72]

32 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

You might get more reliable operation with the two powered cars in the middle. One power collection glitch on power cars at the ends might result in 8 cars off the road.  Of course that would not save decoders.

Good point. Perhaps some experimental running first!

[virginhst539]

13 hours ago, LMSfan72 said:

I have the Celebrating Scotland set which is an 800/1. Prototypically it’s a 9-car set but Hornby only made it 5. I originally thought I’d renumber as an 800/2 but that also means repainting the special livery. Now that the 801/1 extra coaches are available I am considering using those. However, I am not sure if they are actually the same - nor am I sure that they reflect the correct coach types for the full rake. Does anyone with a bit more knowledge have a view??

 

 

I have been looking into this as I pick my additional coaches up on Friday to make 800104 into a full set. as far as bogies which are the main difference I can see the coach pack has two of the open frame type which when combined with the rest is correct. when looking at the unit info in the ICRS uk combined book class 800/1 is listed as 25KV overhead and diesel engine, Class 801/2 which the coaches are made to match is down as 25kv overhead with emergence diesel engine. So with a bit of from Wikipedia the class 800 and 801s are fitted with 5 "power units" under coaches 2/3/5/7/8. the class 801 has one to power auxiliaries and slowly move if the juice goes out. the only slight problem I have found is one of the coach packs is a MCO coach which means you will end up with two MCOs and short a MSO. I don't know the defenses between these two coach types unfortunately. I have attached the table I have made for making 800104 into a 9 car set, hopefully its of some use, just need to find some suitable exhausts for it now

 

[LMSfan72]

34 minutes ago, virginhst539 said:

I have been looking into this as I pick my additional coaches up on Friday to make 800104 into a full set. as far as bogies which are the main difference I can see the coach pack has two of the open frame type which when combined with the rest is correct. when looking at the unit info in the ICRS uk combined book class 800/1 is listed as 25KV overhead and diesel engine, Class 801/2 which the coaches are made to match is down as 25kv overhead with emergence diesel engine. So with a bit of from Wikipedia the class 800 and 801s are fitted with 5 "power units" under coaches 2/3/5/7/8. the class 801 has one to power auxiliaries and slowly move if the juice goes out. the only slight problem I have found is one of the coach packs is a MCO coach which means you will end up with two MCOs and short a MSO. I don't know the defenses between these two coach types unfortunately. I have attached the table I have made for making 800104 into a 9 car set, hopefully its of some use, just need to find some suitable exhausts for it now

 

Terrific info! Thanks

[LMSfan72]

On 07/08/2024 at 09:51, LMSfan72 said:

The other question I have is about running the 800/2 in pairs. I am assuming that they couple so that they run the same way (I.e with the DPTS to DPTF rather than DPTS -DPTS etc). If so, I might see if I can swap bodies as it would be ideal to have a motor at each train end which would also mean no need for lights (and therefore decoders) in the middle!

Looking at the running in pairs: the body swap was straightforward - just needed to change the lighting bars too. Still contemplating how to update the livery. Before I do anything major I am just waiting on some couplings to experiment with the running!

[Goodford]

I received the full 9 car GWR set and it did not move at all. After lubricating all axles and adding weights to the power car it still struggled to move from a standing start without a little nudge to get it going. It was sent directly to Hornby to repair. I contacted them twice within the “max 30 days” and was told that it was being worked on. After they’d had the model for around 40 days I contacted them again and was told it was “30 working days”. Enough was enough and I had to pressure the reseller in to giving me a full refund. On tha back of this experience I will never be buying a Hornby product again. I do hope others have better luck with theirs and do not have to tamper with and fix a “ready to run model”.

 

I own 2 different 5 car 800 sets and they do not have the same issue at all, the additional coach pack is the issue with the 802. If you try and run these 4 additional coaches with an 800 you’ll have the same problem. If you use spare coaches from an 800 set then you will get 9 cars to run fine.

[LMSfan72]

On 09/08/2024 at 10:28, LMSfan72 said:

Looking at the running in pairs: the body swap was straightforward - just needed to change the lighting bars too. Still contemplating how to update the livery. Before I do anything major I am just waiting on some couplings to experiment with the running!

They run well in a pair with the powered cars at each end. The rigid couplings help for sure. I didn’t match the speeds - they were close but not exact, so, it can only get better! One advantage of the HM7000 chips is that I program them both with the same DCC address. That way I run on my regular DCC controller when paired up but if I want separate control I just switch back to Bluetooth and use the Hornby app. I don’t need to change any CVs.

[LMSfan72]

On 07/08/2024 at 22:39, virginhst539 said:

I have been looking into this as I pick my additional coaches up on Friday to make 800104 into a full set. as far as bogies which are the main difference I can see the coach pack has two of the open frame type which when combined with the rest is correct. when looking at the unit info in the ICRS uk combined book class 800/1 is listed as 25KV overhead and diesel engine, Class 801/2 which the coaches are made to match is down as 25kv overhead with emergence diesel engine. So with a bit of from Wikipedia the class 800 and 801s are fitted with 5 "power units" under coaches 2/3/5/7/8. the class 801 has one to power auxiliaries and slowly move if the juice goes out. the only slight problem I have found is one of the coach packs is a MCO coach which means you will end up with two MCOs and short a MSO. I don't know the defenses between these two coach types unfortunately. I have attached the table I have made for making 800104 into a 9 car set, hopefully its of some use, just need to find some suitable exhausts for it now

 

I may have this wrong, but looking at photos of 800107 (thank you @The Angry Scotsman ) and comparing with R3827 (800104) and R3762 (800201) I think:

 

811104 - in R3827

812104 - not available but could try to modify 823214 from R40350: Would need the 4 small vents on the roof plus changing the grills on the underbody and roof exhaust OR renumber 814201 from R3762 and change seat numbers/class

813104 - in R3827

814104 - renumber 824214 from R40350 add roof exhaust

815104 - in R3827

816104 - renumber 826214 from R40350 add roof exhaust

817104 - not available but could try to modify 827214 from R40350: Would need fuel tanks, underbody grills and roof exhaust, plus seat numbers etc OR renumber 813201 from R3762 and change seat numbers/class

818104 - in R3827

 

All of the 800/1 or /2 seem to need the underbody EMI boxes adding regardless

[Covkid]

On 04/08/2024 at 19:05, Class 158 productions said:

At the end of the day, this is an expensive flagship model that cannot run in it's realistic formation out of the box. It points to a lack of testing, which the first batches of 800s suffered from with the de-railing issues hence the amendments to the design later. One would hope on the release that one had a new bogie design and two was a far longer train, that testing the performance of a model that has had issues before would be a top priority especially after this products long gestation, but no. 

 

 

I firstly state the Hitachi designs are light years ahead of my era of interest an I was randomly browsing though this thread, but I feel the point needs to be made that each manufacturer hasa custome built test track to run their test products, and I am sure we have seen Hornby staff running project around their test tracks in their TV programmes.  So does this suggest "not enough" rather than "none" ?

 

 

[GrumpyPenguin]

6 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

I firstly state the Hitachi designs are light years ahead of my era of interest an I was randomly browsing though this thread, but I feel the point needs to be made that each manufacturer hasa custome built test track to run their test products, and I am sure we have seen Hornby staff running project around their test tracks in their TV programmes.  So does this suggest "not enough" rather than "none" ?

 

 

Test tracks need to be indicative of the use the locomotives/trains will be put to - that means curves (down to whatever the tightest radius the model(s) are designed for), resonable gradiant/descents & through some pointwork (in the case of UK models some Hornbny & Peco).

I don't know about the others but Hornby certainly have the room to build a decent test track.

Not exactly diffecult.

[GrumpyPenguin]

14 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Almost agree… it needs to be able to survive sams trains carpet.

In that case the test track needs to have a selectable section running on some carpet..........

[AustinJames]

I'll admit, the reported issues with the locomotives being unable to pull a full 9-car set makes me a bit nervous having ordered one of these to be delivered to the US.

 

Inside bearing bogies on coaches is something I have some familiarity with as Bachmann's (US) Amfleet coaches tend to suffer from the same concerns with the lack of free-rolling wheels, but the locomotives that pull these coaches are usually very heavy on top of the added lubrication given to the wheelsets when new coaches are purchased. 

 

Hopefully Hornby can provide a little more than "it's layout dependent" as a fix. I may just pull the wipers for the lighting away from the wheels to further reduce drag if it comes to it. 

[Class 158 productions]

Finally managed to get back to the layout and run the GWR 802 as a 9 car. As expected it didn’t run and just span. At full power it could do a lap and would gain speed but running a train at full power just to move isn’t great and even then it slowed.

 

Emailed Hornby, had a quick response and they advised releasing/moving the wiper pickups on trailing cars. Again there is only pickup on one bogie per coach and flickering lights have plagued these models since release so I am hesitant in doing so and would mean there could be no interior lighting, will lubricate the axles and report back.
 

It’s a nice looking train, but when compared to other units like the western Pullman from Bachmann it does seem rather expensive and basic and the larger problem that it can’t run out the box. 
 

That being said for the limited time it got up to speed it looked rather good, just hope some sort of solution is offered that doesn’t remove features. 

 

 

Edited September 9 by Class 158 productions